Nearly twenty years later, there is still no game like it...

Hawkaya399

noncley said:

A vast, truly open world...

...Where you could build and decorate your own house...

...And create real, working towns...

...With bars, hospitals, shops and even malls...

...You could defend with automatic defences and NPC guards...

...And which, if you were unlucky, could be invaded and seized by player-armies...

...Where almost every object had a three-D representation that you could move and place...

...Where you could biologically manipulate almost any animal, train them and use them to hunt...

...Which was a sandbox - but also had discrete themeparks within that sandbox...

...Where you could build, customise and decorate vehicles that would travel across the instantless landscapes - or take you high above them...

...Where you could build and sell anything from food to clothes to guns to drugs to vehicles to candles...

...Where you could become rich or powerful or even strong far beyond the efforts of ordinary players - but where you could also reach the top of the tree without killing anything or anyone...

Do you know what game I am talking about? And can you imagine how such a game would do today if it were bug-free and properly supported? ...IT WAS THE CHOSEN ONE!

I have been keeping track of the "holy grail" sort of MMO for a long time, but the problem is my ideal is so incredibly niche, since it's NOT themepark-based and is more about simulation than game mechanics. I also prefer PvP, since I think PvE either isn't pushed far enough or never will reach the challenges of PvP. Right now I'm playing Wurm Online on Chaos--to give you an idea what I prefer, but I'd also consider MMO's like Mortal Online, Xsyon, RoA, The Repulation, Haven and Hearth and others.

Here're my guesses noncley:

1) Fallout Online (canceled, but large parts of it had been designed and even coded and modeled, so much so player-run towns could be made)

2) Avalon (this is a MUD--maybe one of the most extensive sandboxes ever)

3) The Repopulation

4) Fallen Earth??? (doubtful i think--it's not full sandbox)

5) Is it or is it not Star Wars Galaxies?

But honestly I've seen many HUNDREDS of sandbox/sandbox-lite MMO's and I easily could be missing it. There're also many dozens of sandbox MUDs, and thye did this more than 20 years ago. There're so many more which reached Alpha or maybe even early Beta but never released. Therer'e so many obscure MMO's like Daimonin, so this is tough.

Hawkaya399

Wizardry said:

I thought swg looked way too dated to enjoy,contrary to belief graphics matter enough that they have to be bearable.Once a game is dated it is goodbye,nice game while lasted but time to find a better more improved version of.

*skip*

If you think that then it's clear to me you really don't care about the gameplay. I've never cared THAT much about graphics. I've met many players like myself. This is why I strongly doubt you're actually looking for this. Maybe you've convinced yourself you're looking for it, but in truth you're easily led by a leash.

I'll confess graphics matter, if we're comparing something like Haven and Hearth to Dwarf Fortress. But honestly, Fallen Earth compard to Haven and Hearth doesn't matter as much to me. It's a bigger leap from text to 2d, IMHO. Text-based graphics really do rub me the wrong way, even though I think Avalon is probably hte most impressive sandbox out there.

Avalon is also probably one of the oldest mmorpgs still in existence. 30 years at least. It has it all really, if you can stomach text gaming. However, if you get a good mud client, you might be able to improvise some graphics.... for example, some DF mods give it a graphical overhaul, even though it's still barebones.

Oh ya, Dwarf Fortress is probably the most impressive single player sandbox. I've seen NOTHING like it. Therer're a lot of clones now, but they're cheap imitations of a masterpiece. DF is going to be remember historically. That's how amazing it's. It's original too. The clones will come and go like rain, like cheap imitation leather. Some might achieve higher populations, but never the credit that's due to the creators of DF and its long adventure. There'll be better sandboxes in the future, I won't deny that. DF is one attempt to attain the dream of a fully realized virtual reality. I applaud the attempt. I'm specifically targetting the clones piggybacking DF's achievements.

Here's a link to four MUDs recommended by someone here at mmorpg.com.

https://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/9434/Four-of-My-Favorite-MUDs-of-All-Time.html

Here's another link about a possible client and graphical approach:

http://https//www.mmorpg.com/blogs/golem_pyramid/062015/26848_playing-in-the-mud-a-look-at-beautiful-mud-clients

Hawkaya399

Xiaoki said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

You misunderstood what I was saying
SWG is basically post-Trammel UO in space (before they ruined it with NG).

Most devs learned 20 years ago that a gankfest doesn't work as a MMORPG. UO before trammel was a recipe of a major failure to happen soon. Some devs sadly try to repeat that failure, but most understood that it just does not work.

Pre-Trammel Ultima Online was a failure. EA was really close to shutting it down because over 70% of new players were being driven away.

Trammel is what saved Ultima Online from an untimely death.

https://community.crowfall.com/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/

This post(its a couple posts down) from Gordon "Tyrant" Walton should be required reading.

They went from 125k subs to 245k subs. This doesn't prove open world PvP is impossible or even incorrect, it's just unpopular. He/she even states in the post there were some negative consequences--although outweighed by the positives. You could make the game even more mainstream and the pops would jump from 245k to 1 million. This whole thing can go on and on until ti's Farmville or a variant of Fortnite or PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds (a battle royale variant) or MOBA variant. The whole point of business is USUALLY to reach a bigger audience--in other words to grow. Reaching a bigger audience doesn't mean your previous audience is invalid. If this were true, most of the people posting in this thread are invalid because we're not playing the games--or sub/genre--with the highest pops.

There's definitely an audience for it. There're multitudes of open world survival PvP MMO's. World's Adrift and Rust and MANY others are example of modern variants. Some fail worse than others, like Darkfall or Shadowbane. Some have tiny pops like Xsyon or Wurm Online or Mortal Online, and others. These're older examples. Just look at Steam--there're many more examples. MMORPG types tend to be hard to do because they're combining traditional RPG with the harsh open world pvp survival. It's a very small audience seeking both in the same game. This is why tye most succesfull open world pvp survival MMO's are more like a traditional FPS than a traditional MMORPG.

The post you reference also says this:

If I had the chance to do it again, (and we had different fiscal and time constraints), we would have done something more like keeping the current current worlds with the original ruleset (like we later did with the Seige Perilous shard, which was too late in my view), and make new shards with a more PvE ruleset

Link: https://community.crowfall.com/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/?tab=comments#comment-1610

That's in fact why many of these MMO's survive. Wurm ONline, for example, created non-PvP servers, and also created private servers with Wurm Unlimited. This allowed the smaller hardcore PvP players and open world survival enthusiasts to still get what they wanted while keeping pops up.

Giselparry3434

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