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Finally -- A Sequel To Everquest I Style Gameplay

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Comments

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited April 2016
    Amathe said:
    There is also the psychological concept of "effort justification." The idea is that a person attributes greater value to something into which they had to invest a significant amount of effort. 

    Many of us who played these games back when they were much harder probably (among other reasons - not the only reason) tend to place a high value on game mechanics that posed meaningful challenges that we had to invest time and effort to overcome. 
    While its true that we justify the things we're accustomed to (both good and bad), on a very simple level, EQ was fundamentally different and far more enjoyable and rewarding experience compared to modern MMOs. As @Hawkaya399 said, after going back and playing EQ again, I still find it fun. I say this with enough objectivity to actually create a list of both the mistakes, limitations and missed opportunities in its design while playing it most recently.

    I've played almost every major and most minor MMOs that have released in the last 20 years. I don't mean I just "tried" them either. I actually played many of them for hundreds of hours or more. Long enough to be able to objectively decide what it was they lacked, where it was they excelled, and to formulate an educated opinion on their strengths and weaknesses.

    The conclusion I've come to is as stated earlier in this thread. They lack cooperative play, the social aspects, and proper RPG elements. They play like games, not virtual worlds where you must respect both the players and the environments. The players decisions feel meaningless, and there is little to no consequence to your choices and actions. When these things return to the genre, the players will return.

    Visionary Realms understands this, and that is why I support Pantheon.


  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923
    ah the classic hype.to be honest history has warned us about hyping mmorpg.most  fail.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,502
    Chrysaor said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ok so by the "people" producing Pantheon you meant only Brad?

    Another link:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/about_us/visionary_realms/

    Take some time and explore the official website.  Read the forums and such.  Watch the demo videos.  I am sure you will see lots of game mechanics that you fondly remember from those prior MMOs.

    In general, I would imagine that if you enjoyed Everquest I, you will also enjoy Pantheon.  A few examples:

    *  Interdependent Class System (Classes will have roles, group composition will have meaning)
    *  Complex Faction (Your actions will have consequences)
    *  Social / Group Focused (Meet people and take on greater challenges, form guilds)
    *  Non-instanced (With a few exceptions)
    *  Dungeon Camps / Dungeon Crawls (Lots of great memories from prior games)
    *  Crafting / Tradeskills (Lots of gamers enjoy gathering and creating items for profit)
    *  Raiding (Perhaps something similar to 54 person raids)
    *  Dangerous Challenging World  (The greater the risk the greater the potential reward)
    *  Epic Quests (An EQ favorite)
    *  Exploration via Meaningful Travel (A fun activity for many)
    *  Likely PVP Server(s) (Maybe similar to the prior Zek servers)
    You know, Albion Online already has most of the above.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,502
    Kyleran said:
    Chrysaor said:
    Dakeru said:
    Ok so by the "people" producing Pantheon you meant only Brad?

    Another link:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/about_us/visionary_realms/

    Take some time and explore the official website.  Read the forums and such.  Watch the demo videos.  I am sure you will see lots of game mechanics that you fondly remember from those prior MMOs.

    In general, I would imagine that if you enjoyed Everquest I, you will also enjoy Pantheon.  A few examples:

    *  Interdependent Class System (Classes will have roles, group composition will have meaning)
    *  Complex Faction (Your actions will have consequences)
    *  Social / Group Focused (Meet people and take on greater challenges, form guilds)
    *  Non-instanced (With a few exceptions)
    *  Dungeon Camps / Dungeon Crawls (Lots of great memories from prior games)
    *  Crafting / Tradeskills (Lots of gamers enjoy gathering and creating items for profit)
    *  Raiding (Perhaps something similar to 54 person raids)
    *  Dangerous Challenging World  (The greater the risk the greater the potential reward)
    *  Epic Quests (An EQ favorite)
    *  Exploration via Meaningful Travel (A fun activity for many)
    *  Likely PVP Server(s) (Maybe similar to the prior Zek servers)
    You know, Albion Online already has most of the above but they do have a cash shop.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,502
    Dullahan said:
    From Pantheon FAQ:

    What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

    Sounds good, Mark Jacobs and other indie devs are saying similar, but ever since George Bush Srs famous "read my lips, no new taxes" I'll believe it when they stick to their promise a year or two after launch.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,470
    Albion has open PvP that is not really my cup of tea so Pantheon is more my style.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Kyleran said:
    Xatsh said:
    Sub based
    With cash shop .....and preorders and likely most other monetization techniques employed today.



    White noise disinformation does no one any favours. Poor show.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,470
    Any game developer can change their mind saying they're not making enough money and change the payment model it is not really unfair if you consider their point of view and the number of players they attract.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,470
    Yes players do not like this reality and will be yelling about being betrayed and such but those those are the realities of business and paying people to work for you.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    From Pantheon FAQ:

    What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

    Sounds good, Mark Jacobs and other indie devs are saying similar, but ever since George Bush Srs famous "read my lips, no new taxes" I'll believe it when they stick to their promise a year or two after launch.

    Which is fine, but your statement of cash shop as a 'fact' is the worst kind of posting that we see so often here. It's what makes reasonable discussion so difficult.

    If it ever happens, fine, criticise them, but right now why say it as a certainty? Just to damage the rep of a game? 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    Vesavius said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    From Pantheon FAQ:

    What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

    Sounds good, Mark Jacobs and other indie devs are saying similar, but ever since George Bush Srs famous "read my lips, no new taxes" I'll believe it when they stick to their promise a year or two after launch.

    Which is fine, but your statement of cash shop as a 'fact' is the worst kind of posting that we see so often here. It's what makes reasonable discussion so difficult.

    If it ever happens, fine, criticise them, but right now why say it as a certainty? Just to damage the rep of a game? 

    Yeah it's pathetic. 

    The game has no cash shop so trying to promote that it has is pathetic and leads to misinformation. 




  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 860
    edited September 2016
    DMKano said:
    Vesavius said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    From Pantheon FAQ:

    What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

    Sounds good, Mark Jacobs and other indie devs are saying similar, but ever since George Bush Srs famous "read my lips, no new taxes" I'll believe it when they stick to their promise a year or two after launch.

    Which is fine, but your statement of cash shop as a 'fact' is the worst kind of posting that we see so often here. It's what makes reasonable discussion so difficult.

    If it ever happens, fine, criticise them, but right now why say it as a certainty? Just to damage the rep of a game? 

    Yeah it's pathetic. 

    The game has no cash shop so trying to promote that it has is pathetic and leads to misinformation. 

    Really? 

    Oh the irony - "the game" has not been finished yet, so for all we know it may never see the launch day.

    So there is no game, there is no cash shop right now.

    The speculation of Pantheon adding a cash shop at some point is right on - it's inevitable as no game can survive long term without a cash shop now.

    Times have chaged and there is no rewind.
    Kano don't say things that make sense. You'll make the people that believe in fairy tales mad.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    It would definitely surprise me if this game did not have a cash shop regardless of what is in it and what payment model they decide to choose since EVERY mmo today has a cash shop, again regardless of what is in it.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,934
    Albatroes said:
    It would definitely surprise me if this game did not have a cash shop regardless of what is in it and what payment model they decide to choose since EVERY mmo today has a cash shop, again regardless of what is in it.
    Indeed. Unfortunately on his website cashshop means "money stealing, game ruining, experience destroying horrible thing" no matter what is actually being sold. Even purely cosmetic stuff comes straght fom the devil according to some people here. The irony here is that DMKano is right, new MMOs won't survive long time without this extra revenue anymore. So those hating any and all cash shops might actually want to start looking for another hobby.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    edited September 2016
    DMKano said:
    Vesavius said:
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    From Pantheon FAQ:

    What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life.

    Sounds good, Mark Jacobs and other indie devs are saying similar, but ever since George Bush Srs famous "read my lips, no new taxes" I'll believe it when they stick to their promise a year or two after launch.

    Which is fine, but your statement of cash shop as a 'fact' is the worst kind of posting that we see so often here. It's what makes reasonable discussion so difficult.

    If it ever happens, fine, criticise them, but right now why say it as a certainty? Just to damage the rep of a game? 

    Yeah it's pathetic. 

    The game has no cash shop so trying to promote that it has is pathetic and leads to misinformation. 

    The speculation of Pantheon adding a cash shop at some point is right on - it's inevitable as no game can survive long term without a cash shop now.

    You don't seem to understand the difference between speculation and fact. Your opinion is not law, no matter how much it is presented as such. Honestly, this kind of cynical white noise and disinformation is a lot to do with why people have stopped coming to these forums.

    It was stated that Pantheon would have a cash shop as a fact. This is not true. If it becomes true in 3 or so years, complain then. If it doesn't, come here and say that your opinion was wrong (though, let's be honest, that never happens around here).

    That aside.

    A niche game with a stable playerbase is perfectly capable of supporting itself on a sub/ expack model. DAOC has just turned 15. No cash shop. Don't confuse greed with necessity.


  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,196
    All I can is I can not wait until this game comes out if it ever does. 
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    DMKano said:
    Albatroes said:
    It would definitely surprise me if this game did not have a cash shop regardless of what is in it and what payment model they decide to choose since EVERY mmo today has a cash shop, again regardless of what is in it.

    Precisely. 

    It's just amazing to me that some players are so oblivious to reality that is so in their face - as in EVERY mmo having a cash shop today - and yet they just keep up this fantasy that Pantheon or Camelot Unchained can do it without.

    They can't because even if they turn out to BEST games ever, people still get bored and move on after a while, and then the inevitable decline in players and revenue happens.

    The problem is not the games, the problem is majority playerbase doesn't stick to 1 game for very long anymore.

    Which is why no matter how amazing Pantheon turns out to be, it will still need a cash shop to survive long term.

    "The problem is not the games, the problem is majority playerbase doesn't stick to 1 game for very long anymore."

    This is the reason why Panthen and CU may be able to do it without a CS. They seem to both be deisgning and theorizing according to their specific playerbase, which can in theory maintain them longer than a "for everyone" game that leaks like a civ after release. Not only that, specific to Pantheon is a game deisng made for long term play, which cannot be said for 99% of MMOs out right now.

    I agree with you that devs will do what it takes to keep the lights on and employees paid, as they should, but the specific reason they may need to turn to a CS or other monetization mid-stream is what should be focused on. I would not be so quick to assume Panthoen will need to be due to what I mentioed above.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    edited September 2016
    DMKano said:
    Albatroes said:
    It would definitely surprise me if this game did not have a cash shop regardless of what is in it and what payment model they decide to choose since EVERY mmo today has a cash shop, again regardless of what is in it.

    The problem is not the games, the problem is majority playerbase doesn't stick to 1 game for very long anymore.

    Which is where your thinking is flawed.

    People do not stick around in today's disposable solocentric casual lite MMORPGs because of the core mass market design of those games. This is central to what Pantheon is looking to address. Building long term community and a stable niche is what it is about.

    From what I see, and this is all opinion, the MMORPG market is changing fast as it shrinks, and you are stuck in the mindset of 3 years ago. The future isn't homogenised 'broad appeal' with millions of players and whales and all that damaging thinking, because the market is not a fashionable one of hypergrowth any longer. The future is what Everquest ran on for 10+ years, when the market was smaller. Niche and stable communities and long term player investment. What is old is new, now the bubble has burst and we are heading back to what is a dedicated nerd audience. I won't even touch on the F2P/ cash shop fatigue that is clearly visible out there.

    Not having a cash shop will be a selling point that will bring people to this game.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    DMKano said:
    Vesavius said:
    DMKano said:
    Albatroes said:
    It would definitely surprise me if this game did not have a cash shop regardless of what is in it and what payment model they decide to choose since EVERY mmo today has a cash shop, again regardless of what is in it.

    The problem is not the games, the problem is majority playerbase doesn't stick to 1 game for very long anymore.

    Which is where your thinking is flawed.

    People do not stick around in today's disposable solocentric casual lite MMORPGs because of the core mass market design of those games. This is central to what Pantheon is looking to address. Building long term community and a stable niche is what it is about.

    From what I see, and this is all opinion, the MMORPG market is changing fast as it shrinks, and you are stuck in the mindset of 3 years ago. The future isn't homogenised 'broad appeal' with millions of players and whales and all that damaging thinking, because the market is not a fashionable one of hypergrowth any longer. The future is what Everquest ran on for 10+ years, when the market was smaller. Niche and stable communities and long term player investment. What is old is new, now the bubble has burst and we are heading back to what is a dedicated nerd audience. I won't even touch on the F2P/ cash shop fatigue that is clearly visible out there.

    Not having a cash shop will be a selling point that will bring people to this game.

    It will bring people to the game for 2-6 weeks... Bringing people to the game is only part of the solution, it's far more important running a cash flow positive game longterm... Pure p2p cannot do this, expansions sales can't do this alone.

    Yes they can. Like I say, you are speaking with with the conventional wisdom of the status quo, but the problem with the status quo right now is that we are in a time of change as the market shrinks. In 3 years the status quo 2 years ago won't be relevant. If that wisdom was all that solid, tbh, the genre wouldn't be on it's arse.

    But, what was true 2 years ago is changing right now.

    The boom years of super disposable F2P casual lite MMORPGs and cash shop frenzy has burnt many many many gamers out. The genre is all but dead man walking for the mainstream and when dealing with a niche core audience sub/ expack is a proven way to go.

    For the niche market, building a social/ group based game that builds and retains a stable dedicated community (in the very real sense) with a transparent and honest revenue model is a far better business plan than what we have seen over the last decade (when having so many 'casuals' to milk made the Devs lazy, exploitative, and greedy). Sub/ Expack is a perfect fit for this type of game. 

    Pantheon is aiming to do this. Community through social play and, through community, core retention. We have seen games thrive under this model, before falling to the greed of the MMORPG 'gold rush'.

    This isn't aiming to be a solo burn out fast MMORPG that has to milk player honeymoon addiction in the first 3 months or go under. That type of game is what led us to where we are now.

    All IMO, ofc.
  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Member UncommonPosts: 1,237
    I love Everquest. Still play it to this day. But there are some things about it I hope they update (besides the graphics) to represent some aspects of modern gaming.  For example, as a father and executive I dont have time to camp mobs for hours on end.  I have 1 to 1.5 hours late at night tops to have some fun.  Meaning (at least for me) makes grouping very difficult.  I just hope they have options for someone of my playstyle to have fun as well.

    I will check this out.

    image
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    I honestly hope people who want a game like this get exactly what they want, and everybody else gets the game they want so we can all STFU about nostalgia vs. new things, and go back to discussing game functionality, class builds, easter eggs, and other stuff.

    Pffft... year right!
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    DMKano said:

    Well let's see what happens, I hope Pantheon launches in a complete state and I hope that it turns out better than average.

    I mean the reality is that even hard core eq1 fans might end up not liking it, especially if it turns out to be a mediocre game overall. 

    Expectations are usually higher than what is realistically deliverable, so disappointment is expected IMO

    But I hope it's very successful and it remains p2p at launch, would love to see how long they endure before the cash shop gets introduced. 

    Yeah, I hope that it launches nicely as well. It represents a change in the market that I personally want to see. The last few years have been killin' me in this genre heh. 

    My expectations are realistic, I don't expect it to be more than a niche title, so hopefully it just drops with MVP features at least, co-op social gameplay, a nice world, and runs smoothly. That would keep me happy to start.

    Thanks for the reasonable chat here btw.
  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923
    I honestly hope people who want a game like this get exactly what they want, and everybody else gets the game they want so we can all STFU about nostalgia vs. new things, and go back to discussing game functionality, class builds, easter eggs, and other stuff.

    Pffft... year right!
    have to agree.while  the game would probably not have so much attention if not for the vocal ex EQ hardcore players ,they need to be very very careful about implementing features based on a desire to bring back EQ1 as it was in 1999.
    Wildstar tried to bring back features from a much more popular mmorpg and failed terribly and since have had to make changes in a slim attempt to save their game
    weirdly enough a clone of vanilla WoW did well but it was one server and  showed that many who had nostalgia for vanilla WoW had it not for the features but for the game itself .
    I admit that wildstar setting though was much different from WoW and this game is much more similar in setting and even classes to EQ1.
    however i think pantheon needs to be a game of its own merit to be viable in the long term.
  • FeyshteyFeyshtey Member UncommonPosts: 137
    hercules said:
    I honestly hope people who want a game like this get exactly what they want, and everybody else gets the game they want so we can all STFU about nostalgia vs. new things, and go back to discussing game functionality, class builds, easter eggs, and other stuff.

    Pffft... year right!
    have to agree.while  the game would probably not have so much attention if not for the vocal ex EQ hardcore players ,they need to be very very careful about implementing features based on a desire to bring back EQ1 as it was in 1999.
    Wildstar tried to bring back features from a much more popular mmorpg and failed terribly and since have had to make changes in a slim attempt to save their game
    weirdly enough a clone of vanilla WoW did well but it was one server and  showed that many who had nostalgia for vanilla WoW had it not for the features but for the game itself .
    I admit that wildstar setting though was much different from WoW and this game is much more similar in setting and even classes to EQ1.
    however i think pantheon needs to be a game of its own merit to be viable in the long term.
    Nobody is claiming that Pantheon will  be a "WoW killer" or anything. Its widely acknowledged the it's going to have a different market, and going to be a smaller share of MMO players than other games have targeted. But given that there are no real competitors for this particular market it stands a great chance of capturing at least as many players as a lot of games that specifically target the same audience that every other game appears to be going for. 

    You might not like this particular design, and that's perfectly legitimate. But it doesnt mean that every MMO player out there agrees with you. And it doesnt mean that there's not a great enough market to make a sliver of the multi-million player MMO market into a viable game.

    -Feyshtey-

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Wildstar was nothing like Vanilla WoW. Wish people would stop throwing that analogy about like it was relevant.


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