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For Those Claiming BDO's CS is P2W

LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
Just thought I'd post this from the BDO forum.  

It's a nice, easy to read, breakdown against the arguments of those insisting that the BDO Cash Shop is P2W.

http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/17257-breakdown-of-cs-costumespets/
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Comments

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    The haters will still not be convinced but who cares. They can go play all the other Western Mmo that have released in the West this year, not.




  • saurus123saurus123 Member UncommonPosts: 676
    and one day they gonna put rng boxes into the shop like they did in kr and jp :)
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Don't need a long breakdown like that to know that Treant Suit gives you a distinct advantage, and it's only available in the shop.  Pets are more arguable but most will agree they're pretty damn important for looting.
  • pantheronpantheron Member UncommonPosts: 256
    If you have to pay about 30 dollars on top of the base 30 dollars in order to win I'm honestly cool with that. Its not like we're having to drop 4k dollars for top tier armor like in PWI or Forsaken World in order to compete. I don't really see it as a  slippery slope issue either, buying the treant suit doesn't tell Daum that you'd be willing to buy stones in the shop or something like that, and stones have a way bigger impact on PVP anyway.

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,953
    Vision range, user name display disabled and pet auto loot may be considered p2w by some. As well as combat xp bonus. Having to use a pearl shop item to feed your pet is p2 have a pet which you already paid for to start with. As long as we aren't paying to get end game gear it's as tollerable as it's going to be if you don't buy anything from there.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,340
    edited March 2016
    Don't need a long breakdown like that to know that Treant Suit gives you a distinct advantage, and it's only available in the shop.  Pets are more arguable but most will agree they're pretty damn important for looting.
    NO NO NO. Now they added a craftable item that you can make to counter the suit now! Just have to target the player in the suit and cast it. err... well if you are still alive after the thing casts then you're good to go for 5 minutes.

    http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/60127-crimson-battlefield-and-tree-suits/
    ArChWind — MMORPG.com Forums

    If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
  • pantheronpantheron Member UncommonPosts: 256
    Akulas said:
    Vision range, user name display disabled and pet auto loot may be considered p2w by some. As well as combat xp bonus. Having to use a pearl shop item to feed your pet is p2 have a pet which you already paid for to start with. As long as we aren't paying to get end game gear it's as tollerable as it's going to be if you don't buy anything from there.
    there is a quest in veila to teach you to make pet food. you don't have to buy it.

    I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,157
    The game isn't pay 2 win its Pay 2 Enjoy...

    1.) They are holding back costumes and updates compared to Korea Version.

    2.) A costume set costs $22 but they suck, I want to buy my own Custom Costume and use the cosmetic appearance of 3 different costume sets on my character to buy each individual piece though I spend $37 USD to do this.

    . On top of this I then have to spend additional $1.20 USD per 3 dyes RNG which are one time use.

    Over-All the game really isn't pay 2 Win, its just poorly optimized dye system, Pay 2 Enjoy system, and repiaring furniture that needs to be made easier to be done in game rather than how hard it is to deal with right now.
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    Pets are Pay to win at least a total cash grab. Trying to claim they arent is being intellectually dishonest.
  • bentrimbentrim Member UncommonPosts: 299
    WOW...honestly people...if you don't like the setup in the game...DONT PLAY. Those of you who cant afford to play.....MOVE ON!!!! Find something else to bitch about!
  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    Did they change Elion's Tear with the patch or is it still the same way it was? If it's still the same, it's pretty P2W. 
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Did they change Elion's Tear with the patch or is it still the same way it was? If it's still the same, it's pretty P2W. 
     Well you can get Elion's Tear by just playing daily from the loyalty points, you don't have to spend money on them if you don't want to.
  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    edited March 2016
    Realizer said:
    Did they change Elion's Tear with the patch or is it still the same way it was? If it's still the same, it's pretty P2W. 
     Well you can get Elion's Tear by just playing daily from the loyalty points, you don't have to spend money on them if you don't want to.
    How much LP does one Tear cost? 

    edit: It's 500 LP for one Elion's Tear which equates to being able to buy one every five days if you play all five days. I'd hardly call that a good option. 
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    Realizer said:
    Did they change Elion's Tear with the patch or is it still the same way it was? If it's still the same, it's pretty P2W. 
     Well you can get Elion's Tear by just playing daily from the loyalty points, you don't have to spend money on them if you don't want to.
    How much LP does one Tear cost? 

    edit: It's 500 LP for one Elion's Tear which equates to being able to buy one every five days if you play all five days. I'd hardly call that a good option. 
    http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/60558-eleons-tears/

    yeah no one thinks theyre not P2W....
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    Also the OP is citing stuff over a month old a lot of stuff has changed since then, the link he posted is from stuff made on Feb 21, game wasnt even officially released til a week after that even.

    Its obviously pay to win now, maybe not extreme like some games but each new cash shop item is worse than the stuff befoe it in terms of pay to win obviousness (sic).
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

    rodarin said:
    Also the OP is citing stuff over a month old a lot of stuff has changed since then, the link he posted is from stuff made on Feb 21, game wasnt even officially released til a week after that even.

    Its obviously pay to win now, maybe not extreme like some games but each new cash shop item is worse than the stuff befoe it in terms of pay to win obviousness (sic).
    Instead of just posting a vague "a lot of stuff has changed" to push a personal false agenda, why not just state what that "lot of stuff" is? I'll tell you why you won't post it.  Because your claim that a lot has changed is nothing but a huge exaggeration.

    That post is only a month old, it's not like its a year old or anything.  With the exception of a percentage or so increase with the pet XP, everything on that post is accurate.

    Stop raging over nonsense.  If you are so much against the CS, do yourself a favor and move on. No one one is trying to convince you to play against your will.
  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 564
    Game has pvp? Yes.
    Shop only sells cosmetics? No.
    Then it's p2w.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Eadan1 said:
    pantheron said:
    If you have to pay about 30 dollars on top of the base 30 dollars in order to win I'm honestly cool with that. Its not like we're having to drop 4k dollars for top tier armor like in PWI or Forsaken World in order to compete. I don't really see it as a  slippery slope issue either, buying the treant suit doesn't tell Daum that you'd be willing to buy stones in the shop or something like that, and stones have a way bigger impact on PVP anyway.
    You know how you make someone accept an anfavourable agreement? You do it in minor steps and at each step make people believe those minor changes are negligible. You don't need to know anything about BDO to know cash shops will ruin it, like they ruin every game.
    You may think cash shops are terrible, but they are almost a staple of the industry now, found in many games from mmo to single player games.

    The point people like you are missing with BDO in terms of the cash shop, is that the details of the shop are indeed very interesting. BDO actually has less "p2w" than almost any other mmo, including games like WoW that also carry a sub, or other b2p games like GW2 or ESO.

    By burying your head in the sand and claiming its ok to be completely ignorant of the systems in the game and still bash it you are doing every gamer and the mmo genre a huge disservice.

    I don't like p2w. I hate it. And it is for that very reason that I love the way BDO has set up its monetization system. People who don't like p2w should be lauding BDO as a example of how to do a cash shop well.

    Cash shops are likely here to stay. I don't want to see complete p2w crap like Arche Age pulled, or the end-game money pits in games like Tera and Neverwinter online. And yet for once a game comes out with a virtually non-p2w cash shop, which might set you back a couple hundred dollars if you absolutely have to have your name plate hidden and xp bonuses (the only real bonuses you can "buy"), and you guys are just blind to how absolutely amazing that is - especially for an inexpensive b2p game that doesn't charge for expansions.

     
    ....
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Eadan1 said:
    @YashaX
    You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
    Great job missing the entire point of my post. 
    ....
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Eadan1 said:

    YashaX said:
    virtually non-p2w cash shop, which might set you back a couple hundred dollars if you absolutely have to have your name plate hidden and xp bonuses (the only real bonuses you can "buy"), and you guys are just blind to how absolutely amazing that is - especially for an inexpensive b2p game that doesn't charge for expansions.

    YashaX said:
    Great job missing the entire point of my post. 
    The cash shop blocks your access to a core feature of the game, unless you pay infinite amounts of money not just "a couple of hundreds". There is nothing amazing about demanding infinite amount of money for the most basic parts of the game.

    You are just being silly. Some games are set up with limited access to skill resets and this is one of them. Some people even see that as a good feature and would prefer no resets at all. Not only that but you get given resets for free just for logging in regularly and you can actually get every skill in the game anyway if you grind for long enough (as far as I know).

     


    ....
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Eadan1 said:
    @YashaX
    You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
    AFAIC, skill resets shouldn't even be allowed in an MMORPG in the first place.  There should be consequences for making wrong decisions while choosing your skill set during your journey.  If you gimp your character by making the wrong skill choice (S), you either learn to win with that character or you start over untill you get it right. That's the entire point of an MMORPG.  Anyone needing a crutch mechanic like skill resets deserves to pay for it in a big way.  It has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.


  • yucklawyersyucklawyers Member UncommonPosts: 240
    Eadan1 said:
    @YashaX
    You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
    Yeah, I kinda feel for you, if you like to mess around with every skill you have, this is a big negative.

    However, just to give some balance, there is a complete free respec at 45, and partial respecs are given away free in events and with quests.
    For example, Ranger has just been nerfed quite hard, and many will have to respec, so me being a Ranger I dipped into my pearl folder to see what I had accumulated (for free, not brought a single partial from the cash shop) and I had 8 partial spec resets. More than enough for this issue.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    edited March 2016
    Eadan1 said:
    @YashaX
    You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
    AFAIC, skill resets shouldn't even be allowed in an MMORPG in the first place.  There should be consequences for making wrong decisions while choosing your skill set during your journey.  If you gimp your character by making the wrong skill choice (S), you either learn to win with that character or you start over untill you get it right. That's the entire point of an MMORPG.  Anyone needing a crutch mechanic like skill resets deserves to pay for it in a big way.  It has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.


    Well I respect your opinion, and I can understand it - it definitely adds immersion and realism and fits with the way BDO is structured. Personally I like to play more like @Eadan1, reseting my skills often and changing things around, but to claim BDO is ruined because of it and you have to spend "infinite amount of money for a core part of the game" is just silly imo. 

    The overall picture is a very fair, largely non-p2w cash shop, and what p2w elements are in there are very moderate- its not like you can just buy all the best gear either directly or by trading cash for game currency (like in Tera for example).

    If there is going to be cash shops in games I would like them to be more like BDO's, precisely because I don't like p2w!

    Could it be even better? Probably, but its one of if not the most non-p2w games out there atm so I am happy. 

    ....
  • yucklawyersyucklawyers Member UncommonPosts: 240
    edited March 2016
    BDO isn't pay to win. You can't buy anything in the cash shop that will directly improve your stats that will make you tougher than the other person.

    You can buy things in the shop (ghillie suit) that will give you a tactical advantage *in certain situations*. Even less now you can craft a counter-measure, albeit expensively. That and stuff like 10% exp boost or loot boosts is not enough to rate a P2W comment IMO.

    I personally think any shop that improves a players direct fighting stats is pay to win, and I also include those games like GW2 where you can buy anything in the cash shop including BiS items with real life cash. All pay to win IMO.

    BDO whilst not a perfect cash shop, so far is clean of that trash. So keeping my fingers crossed for the future.

  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,605
    Always awesome to see guys who like a game try and justify it does,  while using other games (they dont like) as examples of how its 'better' than them, (when it isnt)

    BDO is full pay to win now. Pets alone make it so. The new pet system  cannot be justified as anything other than a cash grab pay to win scenario. The excuse people give is that eventually the same pets ONLY available in the cash shop right now will be in the game for free. Well now they arent and there is nothing that says they ever will be. If pets were armor or weapons and had the same passive abilities and modifiers a lot more people would be crying foul. But since theyre pets some people give them a pass. The tears have ALWAYS been pay to win, in the most blatant form. when you can spend as much money as you have to go and rez yourself limitless times (with no penalty, and causing penalties to stack up on people you are griefing) that makes it even worse. While it ruins PvP in the first place Tears also allow people to grief people non stop and 'ruin' their characters to huge Karma losses. 

    This is also just the first month and more and more stuff will be coming to the cash shop you can bet your ass on that, they already have things that are most definitely pay to win, not just cosmetic or pay for 'convenience', not limited to pets, the gillie suit or tears, but some people could argue semantics with some of the other stuff, especially since they try and justify the most blatant of pay to win items as 'not as bad as (fill in game you dont like here) cash shop items.

    While I am not saying its good or bad or if it will 'kill' the game, the cash shop in BDO is most definitely selling pay to win items and you can be sure it will get worse before it gets better.
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