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Rumor: Nvidia’s Pascal Architecture Is In Trouble With Asynchronous Compute

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  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    edited March 2016
    wanderica said:
    Don't forget too that DX12 puts a lot of the performance back in the hands of the developer.  DX12 benchmarks are going to be all over the map for a while.  We're already seeing it.  Tomb Raider benchmarks actually got WORSE on DX12, and that shouldn't happen. 

    Last thing of note, and this is very recent news, is that nVidia has made the GamesWorks source code public.  This is huge for AMD.  GamesWorks has been a very large thorn in ATi's side for a while now, but with it going public, they (AMD) have no excuse.  I have no doubt that nVidia will figure Async. Compute out in due time.  It looks like the GPU wars are heating up again, and I think that's a great thing.  Being stuck at 28 nm for so long forced both camps to push the boundaries of what they were capable of, and it's been cutthroat and weird for a while.  14 / 16 nm, and all that comes with it, will benefit us gamers greatly.
    ROTR is proof that if you dont put DX12 features that actually make game run better (async compute) is as good as previous DXs were. Some fluff and thats it. Its ironic really, consoles use async in ROTR and run much better than comparable PC hardware. OTOH, 12.1 "features" can be run (and poorly at that) only on 650+$ GPU which makes them irrelevant for 99% of people. Though ROTR devs said that they would bring back async back to PC version eventually but until that happens ROTR is just DX11 game with DX12 tag bolted on (just like GOWU)

    As far as gameworks goes, it isnt as open as it seems at first, lots of clauses in contract you have to sign to use it. We will have to wait and see how it works in practice. Community has AMDs GPUOpen as completely open platform, if gameworks stuff continues to run so poorly, its bye bye gameworks.

    AMD CANNOT access gameworks source code or do anything with it. You got that wrong. As i said, its questionable what exactly developers can do with it except look at it.

    And yes, its developers responsibility to make game work at its best. We see that when DX12/Vulkan is implemented correctly it gives nice boost to DX12 capable hardware for free. And i must confess that i like free performance boosts
    Post edited by Malabooga on
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,130
    H0urg1ass said:
    Malabooga said:
    H0urg1ass said:
    I have a confession to make.  I'm a fanboy of a particular GPU manufacturer... whichever one is making the best card for the best price.
    Thats OK if youre objective about it and dont move goalposts on every turn.

    For instance:

    Power efficiency was "most important GPU feature EVER"

    now when you have to heavily OC NVidias GPUs its other way around (exterme case 980ti and Titan X/Fury X) when you have to put huge OC/waterblocks on NVidias GPUs (which will add hefty premium cost AND make them draw 400-500W) to match Fury "its all about performance and who cares about power draw, only peasants care about it"

    Yah, it would be nice to have majority on objective side and with real information but its rarely so :)

    And i dont think people realize what it really means. How will NVidia fare if they have to sell 980 at price of 390 and 970 at price of 380?
    What goalpost?  I check the Tom's Hardware and Overclockers sites and see what the new cards are benchmarking on the games I want to play.  Then I choose whichever one is best at those games for the price.

    Yes, I do OC my CPU's and GPU's, but I was gonna do that anyways whether or not it puts one card over another.  Why run a 4570K at 3.5 when you can run it at 4.8?  The performance difference is huge.

    I've swapped back and forth between manufacturers whenever it suited my needs.  This whole being locked into one brand is about as retarded as Team Jacob and Team Edward.  I'm on team me, and I pick what's best for my system.
    I don't think he's accusing you of anything.  What sometimes happens is:

    One generation, Nvidia is better at A and AMD is better at B.  Person says buy Nvidia because it's better at A.

    Next generation, Nvidia is better at B and AMD is better at A.  Same person as before says buy Nvidia because it's better at B.

    That constitutes moving the goalposts if there aren't some serious caveats.  There are a lot of possible caveats, of course.

    Even if we're just talking about energy efficiency, someone could have bought a GeForce GTX 480, regretted it because it ran so hot, and then discovered that energy efficiency matters before making his next purchase.

    I personally tend to make the case that the difference between 300 W and 200 W matters a lot more than the difference between 75 W and 50 W.  And also that energy efficiency in a laptop is a huge deal, but not that important in a desktop.

    I've been recommending Nvidia Maxwell cards for laptops for about the last two years, and for the same reason that I recommended AMD over Nvidia in laptops in 2010-2011:  energy efficiency.  If either Polaris or Pascal comes out substantially before the other for laptops, I'll presumably recommend that one for laptops until the other is available.
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152
    edited March 2016
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    Yeah, we have to go all the way back to ... 3 weeks  ago to find an nVidia article that compares to that one huh.

    http://www.lazygamer.net/technology/be-warnednvidias-latest-driver-is-destroying-some-graphics-cards/
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,130
    Xyire said:
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
    The basic premise here is that both AMD and Nvidia have occasional driver problems, but their drivers do mostly work right.  No one is claiming that AMD drivers are perfect and only Nvidia's drivers are completely broken; that would be as absurd as your claims that it's the other way around.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    Just stumbled on some old NVidia dx12 promo pic:

    httpiplaygroundrui86154100blogcontent5x6d5g9gpng

    And now they are crying over games using Async Compute and that its "AMD feature" :) Oh, the irony, its still there

    http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/geforce-gtx-is-game-ready-for-windows-10-and-directx-12

  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    edited March 2016
    Xyire said:
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
    I am looking at both sides but you are not. YOU proclaimed one has better drivers. Stating that that is "your opinion" makes your opinion wrong because facts say otherwise.

    Both have plenty of issues and its certainly not a buying point for one or the other, its PR stunt originating in last century.

    As i said, if you dont want driver issues buy a console.

    ATM i would say that drivers are equally shitty on both sides and who is worse changes from driver release to driver release. Best advice is to not install drivers on day 1 and wait few days to be sure.
    Post edited by Malabooga on
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,130
    DirectX 12 and Vulkan give programmers the ability to do given effects with less CPU overhead.  That only benefits games if CPU overhead was the problem in the first place--so if some other video card runs a game better than the one you have, don't expect to gain much from DirectX 12 or Vulkan.

    Eventually, developers are likely to take advantage of the reduced CPU overhead to do more demanding things that they didn't dare try before because the CPU overhead would have killed performance.  If they do that, you don't expect higher frame rates from a DirectX 12 or Vulkan implementation; ideally, you get about the same frame rates as before but with better graphics.

    For several years up until GCN launched around the start of 2012, Nvidia put relatively more focus on non-graphical compute than AMD did, as AMD was more narrowly focused on graphics.  Since GCN in 2012, it's been the other way around.  This is why several years ago, Nvidia was pushing hard to get games to use the GPU for compute, while now, it's AMD pushing asynchronous compute.  Whether a GPU vendor wants compute to matter in games depends on whether they're better or worse at compute at the time.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    edited March 2016
    But you see for yorself that NVidia still claim they can do it fine while all tests show that they cant do it, well, they can software emulate it but at performance loss. Its still right there on their page.

    And i have seen plenty of misinformed people claiming that async compute is "AMD feature" just like gameworks. Nope, its core DX12 thing, industry standard and it actually increases performance on dx12 capable hardware. Whether its 5% or 40% its free performance.

    We will have to wait for Pascal, and i would say we will have to wait actual benches and analysis because NVidia has been lying a lot lately about their specs and GPU capabilities. If it hadnt been for AotS and its developer Stardock/Oxide we would still be in the dark about maxwells dx12 capabilities. AND NVidias shameful treatment of devs (which is why so many believe Pascal wont have async compute either - desperately trying to keep it out of games)
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152
    edited March 2016
    Quizzical said:
    Xyire said:
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
    The basic premise here is that both AMD and Nvidia have occasional driver problems, but their drivers do mostly work right.  No one is claiming that AMD drivers are perfect and only Nvidia's drivers are completely broken; that would be as absurd as your claims that it's the other way around.
    You seem to misunderstand, my only claim is that I have personally not had any driver issues with nvidia and i have had problems with every amd card I've used.  I very clearly disclaimed that I was not speaking on anything besides my personal opinion based entirely on my personal experience.  

    I realize in my first post I wasn't super careful and did say "no driver issues" - which has been true for me.  But I also said amd had "more" driver issues, implying nvidia had them too.

    I understand lots of people have problems with both brands cards, and yet people are upset that I am sharing my experiences.  Yes, there is data to support both sides of the driver issues.

    I thought you were more of a voice of reason here on the forums Quizzical, I'm a little disappointed that you didn't bother to actually read what I was saying and jumped on the "hes thinks amd has driver problems, burn him" bandwagon :(
    Post edited by Xyire on
  • Tyr216Tyr216 Member UncommonPosts: 167
    Apparently, nerds argue about stuff like NVidia vs AMD like jocks do sports teams. For all our technological advances, we're still just apes flinging poo trying to assert ourselves.

    image
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152
    edited March 2016
    Malabooga said:
    Xyire said:
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
    I am looking at both sides but you are not. YOU proclaimed one has better drivers. Stating that that is "your opinion" makes your opinion wrong because facts say otherwise.

    Both have plenty of issues and its certainly not a buying point for one or the other, its PR stunt originating in last century.

    As i said, if you dont want driver issues buy a console.

    ATM i would say that drivers are equally shitty on both sides and who is worse changes from driver release to driver release. Best advice is to not install drivers on day 1 and wait few days to be sure.
    I actually said that my opinions were based on my personal experiences.  I went out of my way to disclaim that I was speaking purely from what I had personally happen with my cards.  My opinion is in no way "incorrect" since 1) opinions arn't correct or incorrect 2) its based on entirely on facts - what has happened that I have seen personally in the past not some pr mumbo jumbo.  Yes I understand there are more facts out there, but what I have personally seen is definitely a set of facts.

    No one could possibly believe that either manufacturer has no problems, I think the issue you're fighting here is actually a non-issue and you are taking my statement as a belief that Nvidia has no problems when in reality it's a statement that I have not had problems with them (which I clearly stated below just to be sure this sort of misunderstanding wouldn't occur).

    Also, my comment was directed at Ridelynn who stated that "AMD has driver problems hasn't been true in so long" which you agreed with.  They clearly have.  That's not saying nvidia doesn't, just that AMD does.  I did exactly what you did here, I took him literally.  I'm sure he and you also don't believe that amd has no driver issues.

    You also claim that I am not looking at both sides, I have in fact purchased both brands of cards and have - as I said - experienced problems with only 1 brand.  If I were not looking at both sides, I would have stuck with 1 brand all the way through. With my use it seems I have problems with AMD cards and not with Nvida.  This could well be random chance or based on my gaming preferences. 

    People have these red flags and are over sensitive about a couple "trigger" issues that many people bring up.  I think we should all step back a moment and realize being overly combative about issues that we perceive to be entirely pr based isn't helpful. If something seems absurd to believe, we should probably re-read what was said to try to understand what was actually said.

    I think the best part here is that my statement about nvidia and amd was entirely irrelevant to what I was trying to say in my original post - that different people had different goalposts.  
    Post edited by Xyire on
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    Then I have no choice but to assume your "personal experience" is based on PEBKAC and not any difference in driver quality or GPU quality. 
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152
    edited March 2016
    Ridelynn said:
    Then I have no choice but to assume your "personal experience" is based on PEBKAC and not any difference in driver quality or GPU quality. 
    Lol, really?  If you honestly believe that a sample size that small can't have that happen in it you should look up probability and sample size.  But you don't actually believe that, no one could, so I guess trolls are trolls. Stay toxic! 
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    edited March 2016
    Xyire said:
    Malabooga said:
    Xyire said:
    November of 2015 is so long ago? http://www.pcworld.com/article/3009688/components/amd-pushing-crimson-driver-fan-speed-hotfix-after-reports-of-overheating-radeon-cards.html

    I think you guys need to try to look at both sides of the story. 
    I am looking at both sides but you are not. YOU proclaimed one has better drivers. Stating that that is "your opinion" makes your opinion wrong because facts say otherwise.

    Both have plenty of issues and its certainly not a buying point for one or the other, its PR stunt originating in last century.

    As i said, if you dont want driver issues buy a console.

    ATM i would say that drivers are equally shitty on both sides and who is worse changes from driver release to driver release. Best advice is to not install drivers on day 1 and wait few days to be sure.
    I actually said that my opinions were based on my personal experiences.  I went out of my way to disclaim that I was speaking purely from what I had personally happen with my cards.  My opinion is in no way "incorrect" since 1) opinions arn't correct or incorrect 2) its based on entirely on facts - what has happened that I have seen personally in the past not some pr mumbo jumbo.  Yes I understand there are more facts out there, but what I have personally seen is definitely a set of facts.

    No one could possibly believe that either manufacturer has no problems, I think the issue you're fighting here is actually a non-issue and you are taking my statement as a belief that Nvidia has no problems when in reality it's a statement that I have not had problems with them (which I clearly stated below just to be sure this sort of misunderstanding wouldn't occur).

    Also, my comment was directed at Ridelynn who stated that "AMD has driver problems hasn't been true in so long" which you agreed with.  They clearly have.  That's not saying nvidia doesn't, just that AMD does.  I did exactly what you did here, I took him literally.  I'm sure he and you also don't believe that amd has no driver issues.

    You also claim that I am not looking at both sides, I have in fact purchased both brands of cards and have - as I said - experienced problems with only 1 brand.  If I were not looking at both sides, I would have stuck with 1 brand all the way through. With my use it seems I have problems with AMD cards and not with Nvida.  This could well be random chance or based on my gaming preferences. 

    People have these red flags and are over sensitive about a couple "trigger" issues that many people bring up.  I think we should all step back a moment and realize being overly combative about issues that we perceive to be entirely pr based isn't helpful. If something seems absurd to believe, we should probably re-read what was said to try to understand what was actually said.

    I think the best part here is that my statement about nvidia and amd was entirely irrelevant to what I was trying to say in my original post - that different people had different goalposts.  
    "opinions" can be very incorrect, just like yours is when it contradicts FACTS like yours is. Im sorry to inform you YOU do not represent the world. Just because i dont have cancer noone has and that is my opinion based on personal experience! Its, like, totally based on facts!

    not only that, you proclaim to be "fair" about it. Your little disclaimer at the bottom means absolutely nothing and its tecnique usually used by PR and cheapo sensalist "journalists"

    When you want to write something that is clear, its clear, you dont need disclaimers that you didnt really mean it that way.

    And yes, it is  PR BS that is floating around and you very well know it, so yes, we could have cut this crap long ago if you didnt decide to push the issue. But obviously something about it is bothering you.

    "Maybe my experience is not a representative sample, but my opinions are backed with first hand data."

    "I think I was very fair to both parties in my statements."

    just look at these statements lol

    Post edited by Malabooga on
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657
    I've never understood these pissing contests. Or is it an e-peen contest? I can never tell them apart.
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152
    Grunty said:
    I've never understood these pissing contests. Or is it an e-peen contest? I can never tell them apart.
    I think in general it's someone feels attacked and feels the need to defend what they said.  He felt attacked because I used a statement he didn't like in an example.  He then attacked me for my statement. I then felt the need to explain how I didn't mean to be attacking his beliefs but hold to my statement... etc etc etc
  • XyireXyire Member UncommonPosts: 152

    Malabooga said:
    "opinions" can be very incorrect, just like yours is when it contradicts FACTS like yours is. Im sorry to inform you YOU do not represent the world. Just because i dont have cancer noone has and that is my opinion based on personal experience! Its, like, totally based on facts!

    not only that, you proclaim to be "fair" about it. Your little disclaimer at the bottom means absolutely nothing and its tecnique usually used by PR and cheapo sensalist "journalists"

    When you want to write something that is clear, its clear, you dont need disclaimers that you didnt really mean it that way.

    And yes, it is  PR BS that is floating around and you very well know it, so yes, we could have cut this crap long ago if you didnt decide to push the issue. But obviously something about it is bothering you.

    "Maybe my experience is not a representative sample, but my opinions are backed with first hand data."

    "I think I was very fair to both parties in my statements."

    just look at these statements lol

    I realize my hope of explaining what I said to you is impossible as you don't want to listen, but here goes for the last time:

    My opinion is that AMD has more driver trouble than Nvidia.  Unless you have statistics to show they are even or nvidia is worse, you are just giving your opinion.

    The reason I bothered to reply to your inflammatory post touting your belief that I was wrong (and in fact continue to reply) was you seemed very upset about it and I was attempting to explain myself so you could calm down.

    And with that, I give up on explaining - though you never cared to listen in the first place :)
  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 366
    Malabooga said:
    wanderica said:
    Don't forget too that DX12 puts a lot of the performance back in the hands of the developer.  DX12 benchmarks are going to be all over the map for a while.  We're already seeing it.  Tomb Raider benchmarks actually got WORSE on DX12, and that shouldn't happen. 

    Last thing of note, and this is very recent news, is that nVidia has made the GamesWorks source code public.  This is huge for AMD.  GamesWorks has been a very large thorn in ATi's side for a while now, but with it going public, they (AMD) have no excuse.  I have no doubt that nVidia will figure Async. Compute out in due time.  It looks like the GPU wars are heating up again, and I think that's a great thing.  Being stuck at 28 nm for so long forced both camps to push the boundaries of what they were capable of, and it's been cutthroat and weird for a while.  14 / 16 nm, and all that comes with it, will benefit us gamers greatly.
    ROTR is proof that if you dont put DX12 features that actually make game run better (async compute) is as good as previous DXs were. Some fluff and thats it. Its ironic really, consoles use async in ROTR and run much better than comparable PC hardware. OTOH, 12.1 "features" can be run (and poorly at that) only on 650+$ GPU which makes them irrelevant for 99% of people. Though ROTR devs said that they would bring back async back to PC version eventually but until that happens ROTR is just DX11 game with DX12 tag bolted on (just like GOWU)

    As far as gameworks goes, it isnt as open as it seems at first, lots of clauses in contract you have to sign to use it. We will have to wait and see how it works in practice. Community has AMDs GPUOpen as completely open platform, if gameworks stuff continues to run so poorly, its bye bye gameworks.

    AMD CANNOT access gameworks source code or do anything with it. You got that wrong. As i said, its questionable what exactly developers can do with it except look at it.

    And yes, its developers responsibility to make game work at its best. We see that when DX12/Vulkan is implemented correctly it gives nice boost to DX12 capable hardware for free. And i must confess that i like free performance boosts
    So just a PR stunt then huh?  That's unfortunate.  Hopefully GameWorks will go away.  Hair Works looked pretty good, I have to admit, but I can't even tell the difference between HBAO+ on or off in most games, and tend to prefer it off in others. 

    And yeah, the ROTR DX12 patch should never have been released.  Surely they did some benchmarking in-house, and noticed the weird performance. 


  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    edited March 2016
    Xyire said:
    Grunty said:
    I've never understood these pissing contests. Or is it an e-peen contest? I can never tell them apart.
    I think in general it's someone feels attacked and feels the need to defend what they said.  He felt attacked because I used a statement he didn't like in an example.  He then attacked me for my statement. I then felt the need to explain how I didn't mean to be attacking his beliefs but hold to my statement... etc etc etc
    Its you who started it lol, i have nicely shown your nonsensical statements and you feel threatened by it somehow. Dragging it further only shows that you cannot accept the facts.

    Even in this post you call beliefs facts and facts beliefs
    Xyire said:

    Malabooga said:
    "opinions" can be very incorrect, just like yours is when it contradicts FACTS like yours is. Im sorry to inform you YOU do not represent the world. Just because i dont have cancer noone has and that is my opinion based on personal experience! Its, like, totally based on facts!

    not only that, you proclaim to be "fair" about it. Your little disclaimer at the bottom means absolutely nothing and its tecnique usually used by PR and cheapo sensalist "journalists"

    When you want to write something that is clear, its clear, you dont need disclaimers that you didnt really mean it that way.

    And yes, it is  PR BS that is floating around and you very well know it, so yes, we could have cut this crap long ago if you didnt decide to push the issue. But obviously something about it is bothering you.

    "Maybe my experience is not a representative sample, but my opinions are backed with first hand data."

    "I think I was very fair to both parties in my statements."

    just look at these statements lol

    I realize my hope of explaining what I said to you is impossible as you don't want to listen, but here goes for the last time:

    My opinion is that AMD has more driver trouble than Nvidia.  Unless you have statistics to show they are even or nvidia is worse, you are just giving your opinion.

    The reason I bothered to reply to your inflammatory post touting your belief that I was wrong (and in fact continue to reply) was you seemed very upset about it and I was attempting to explain myself so you could calm down.

    And with that, I give up on explaining - though you never cared to listen in the first place :)
    ROLF, i made 2 sentence comment about your post and you go on ballistic how "maybe" youre not the centre of the universe and your judgement is "more than fair" inspite of that. And then proceed with nonsensical claim that your "opinion" cannot be wrong lol

    You seem pretty upset over this. Im sorry but youll have to accept universe doesnt revolve around you and i have already posted just the latest stunt, if you want more youre welcome to educate yourself. Its actually encouraged to educate yourself on the matter.
    Post edited by Malabooga on
  • MalaboogaMalabooga Member UncommonPosts: 2,977
    wanderica said:
    So just a PR stunt then huh?  That's unfortunate.  Hopefully GameWorks will go away.  Hair Works looked pretty good, I have to admit, but I can't even tell the difference between HBAO+ on or off in most games, and tend to prefer it off in others. 

    And yeah, the ROTR DX12 patch should never have been released.  Surely they did some benchmarking in-house, and noticed the weird performance. 
    Well lots and lots of stuff that explicitly say what they cannot do, so it remains to be seen what remains that actually can be done.
  • oryanswatchoryanswatch Member CommonPosts: 2
    Just like Music and Videos - Our emotions have effect on them. It's not a one way thing; we are all connected. People who have created Master game systems and have gotten paid well, should not hide their works and should help current developers with their frustrations. It's Not a war. I don't know about you, but i like to be able to hear the birds when i step outside.

    Never have I received a red cent for anything that i have helped with. It is Peace and Love ~ 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I think its odd how people clearly understand that there is a market for high end video cards, that market does exist, people do buy them and they buy them enough for a company to make money and to continue to supply for that market....any yet....

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think its odd how people clearly understand that there is a market for high end video cards, that market does exist, people do buy them and they buy them enough for a company to make money and to continue to supply for that market....any yet....
    The bold part is where you are incorrect. The top end products are merely halo products. They have huge profit margins, yes, but if that were the only product a company were to produce, they would not stay in business very long.

    The halo product serves to convince people who can't afford the halo product to buy a less expensive product of the same brand name.

    It also serves as a sort of test platform - as many of the less expensive options are typically the lesser binned, or otherwise cutdown, versions of the halo product dies.

    But if you were to just try to sell the top end, yeah, that niche isn't big enough to support all the expenses of a business.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    Xyire said:
    Grunty said:
    I've never understood these pissing contests. Or is it an e-peen contest? I can never tell them apart.
    I think in general it's someone feels attacked and feels the need to defend what they said.  He felt attacked because I used a statement he didn't like in an example.  He then attacked me for my statement. I then felt the need to explain how I didn't mean to be attacking his beliefs but hold to my statement... etc etc etc
    Not really. 

    It's because, if you've been around in these tech circles for long enough, you've seen just about every Green vs Red argument that exists.

    And you get some people who just continue to spout nonsense about one team or another. 9 times out of 10 it seems, it's for Team Green - which for some reason seems to breed rabid fanatics.

    It has gotten so bad in the past, that some of these rabid fanatics were actually found out to be paid to go around to various message boards and other social media and "spread the gospel". This is back when Red and Green used to cheat at benchmarks and other under-handed tricks (both have done it).

    So when ever we see someone who has an "opinion" that seems suspiciously one-sided, this is why we get our hackles up. And those opinions almost always seem to be based on the same incorrect data (driver quality is the top myth, and thus is the immediate red flag that someone is just spouting propaganda, and not an actual opinion or fact)

    Neither company is saintly, you just pick whichever devil is the best deal when your buying. 
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