Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

I found this to actually be an intelligent discussion.

12357

Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Brenics said:
    Distopia said:
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 
    Try going back further, you haven't been around this industry long enough if the first game you bring up is WoW.
    EH what? you brought up WOW.. AS well as included it in a best of scenario lmao.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Eh you said "best games" not best MMO's. Best MMORPG's imo were SWG & DAOC.. STill not made in a basement...

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     It sounds like some of you need new jobs, the last fortune 500 Tech Company I worked for had Nerf Gun battles on the production floor once every few days.  Our Management Team would get together once a month and play Humans vs Zombies, we'd also have daily Ping Pong tournaments in the lunch room, and daily Console Game tournaments in the game room. There were also "quiet rooms" with couches, plants, and bean bags for taking naps between shifts, and an on-site Gym.

     With all of that, there was still the usual employee factions. Ones who loved their jobs, and those who hated it. Even employees who worked under managers that were known for being "cool" and "fair", there were still complaints against them and employees who didn't agree.

     I've come to figure out in the Tech Industry there are people who are high function workers that produce great metrics, but are still the most vocal critics. I think it comes with the territory. In my former work, my job was starting new campaigns for tech companies that were rolling out new products. It became quickly obvious that the only way toward a cohesive team, was unfortunately through attrition. People who like their work stay at their jobs, and people who don't generally end up finding their own way out.  Whether that be from their attendance, work performance, or just finding new jobs. 

     It's also worth noting that on many projects you would have teams of people that are only needed for portions of work, these people usually apply for these types of positions, and they have their reasons for doing it. They usually pay better than full time positions, but they are only hired for a few months at a time. Once these people are done with their work, they normally have similar jobs already lined up with the next Company they are going to. 

     In the end having to re-do work is tough, but especially in the gaming industry. You find out quickly that you should never expect anything to work right after one try. Work needs to be tested, and re-tested, and checked by quality control. Then it gets implemented, and tested again, and again. Then you can let customers try it in small markets, if it works you can mass produce. After all of that, there's usually still bugs needing to be fixed ect. 

     It all takes time, and when you have a customer base unfamiliar with this process, and how these companies operate. It's very easy for them to be impatient, if people knew about, and pre-purchased World of Warcraft, and then had to wait 5 years for it to come out. You'd see similar to these conversations. Employees get hired, fired, and quit, it's how the world works. Systems, and code, have be worked out, then worked out again more often than not. When this process is transparent, it's more likely to have detractors. SC has become a personal project of fans, and now even anti-fans. The more transparency in companies we see because of things like Kickstarter, and companies being out in the public eye before having a final product like it used to be, the more people will figure out these things are normal, and happen more often than not.

    Also who do I talk to about getting paid for my posts? I want in on this, thanks in advance.  =)
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Brenics said:
    Distopia said:
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 
    Try going back further, you haven't been around this industry long enough if the first game you bring up is WoW.
    You brought up WOW first so is this talking to yourself?
    You notice that one word just before where I said WoW? Ok bye. :)
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    edited March 2016


    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
    Weird I could of sworn we were on a site for MMORPG's. Amazing!

    Oh can you ever type something without an attack in it? 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited March 2016
    Brenics said:


    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
    Weird I could of sworn we were on a site for MMORPG's. Amazing!

    Oh can you ever type something without an attack in it? 
    SC isn't even an MMORPG. This site stopped being an exclusive MMORPG site long ago.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    edited March 2016

    Its not Croberts and his minions who would play the negative role here. It's the people who sink their children's college fund, entire life savings and take out loans to fund the man's dreams, that will.

    Wow.. just wow.

    This goes beyond mindless hate. This is on a whole new, golden level.

    Best anti - SC argument on these boards by far. The rest of the SC haters squad needs to step up their game in order to measure up.

    Keep it up.
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:
    Brenics said:
    Distopia said:
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 
    Try going back further, you haven't been around this industry long enough if the first game you bring up is WoW.
    You brought up WOW first so is this talking to yourself?
    You notice that one word just before where I said WoW? Ok bye. :)
    You notice the first use of the word WOW is in the post just before someone else replied to your post and 2 post before your comeback trying insinuate superior knowledge of the subject by claiming that their bringing up WOW indicates they do not have as much knowledge of the industry as you do?
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    Brenics said:


    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
    Weird I could of sworn we were on a site for MMORPG's. Amazing!

    Oh can you ever type something without an attack in it? 
    Yeah this game is no longer exclusively about MMORPGS much to my disappointment. 

    Stop writing comments that are so needing of attack for their lack of facts/point/value/etc... and I will gladly stop attacking them.

    If your arguments are not up to withstanding attack then do not make them in the first place. 


  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    edited March 2016
    Shodanas said:

    Lets not veer off-topic though, because I sense the jail overlay coming towards my avatar picture. Let us get back on topic. 
    Unfortunately some folks are immune no matter how many times they derail a thread. Anyway, back to the topic of discussion!

    I think were all on the same page in that, when you create a miserable work environment and creative folks aren't happy, creativity and production suffer. All the murals and 5000$ espresso machines aren't going to change that.  Which takes us back to the topic of how Robers has created a miserable work environment for his employees as stated by David Jennison - former lead character designer for Star Citizen.
     
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Shodanas said:

    Lets not veer off-topic though, because I sense the jail overlay coming towards my avatar picture. Let us get back on topic. 
    I think were all on the same page in that, when you create a miserable work environment and creative folks aren't happy, creativity and production suffer. All the murals and 5000$ espresso machines aren't going to change that.  Which takes us back to the topic of how Robers has created a miserable work environment for his employees as stated by David Jennison - former lead character designer for Star Citizen.
    5 pages disagree with your premise. Please don't try such a low tactic as trying to ignore the rest of the thread to try and claim some moral victory when there hasn't been one, on either side. 
  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    edited March 2016
    Shodanas said:

    Lets not veer off-topic though, because I sense the jail overlay coming towards my avatar picture. Let us get back on topic. 
    I think were all on the same page in that, when you create a miserable work environment and creative folks aren't happy, creativity and production suffer. All the murals and 5000$ espresso machines aren't going to change that.  Which takes us back to the topic of how Robers has created a miserable work environment for his employees as stated by David Jennison - former lead character designer for Star Citizen.
    5 pages disagree with your premise. Please don't try such a low tactic as trying to ignore the rest of the thread to try and claim some moral victory when there hasn't been one, on either side. 
    Actually, the very core of the topic is that according to David Jennison former lead character designer for Star Citizen, Chris Roberts created a poor working environment due to his poor decision making and poor choice of team leadership.  Here is the link so you can review it again.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/

     
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    I think were all on the same page in that
    What You said...


    5 pages disagree with your premise.  
    What I said.

    We are NOT ALL on the same page, hence 5 pages of discussion.

    Again, stop trying to deflect the discussion by trying to push your agenda onto the topic when, as has been pointed out in various places by various posts, the topic is very much up for debate.

    That the guy might just be a disgruntled employee or it might all be true. If the guy had a problem he should have brought it to tribunal and not be so unprofessional by writing and releasing this information. 

    But please don't dismiss 5 pages of discussion, it is very disingenuous. 
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939

    Brenics said:


    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
    Weird I could of sworn we were on a site for MMORPG's. Amazing!

    Oh can you ever type something without an attack in it? 
    Yeah this game is no longer exclusively about MMORPGS much to my disappointment. 

    Stop writing comments that are so needing of attack for their lack of facts/point/value/etc... and I will gladly stop attacking them.

    If your arguments are not up to withstanding attack then do not make them in the first place. 


    Clearly a lot of others believe SC is an MMO!

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/14268/star-citizen-mmo-or-not-clear-answer-please

    So guess you are confused about the game you are defending. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    edited March 2016

    I think were all on the same page in that
    What You said...


    5 pages disagree with your premise.  
    What I said.

    We are NOT ALL on the same page, hence 5 pages of discussion.

    Again, stop trying to deflect the discussion by trying to push your agenda onto the topic when, as has been pointed out in various places by various posts, the topic is very much up for debate.

    That the guy might just be a disgruntled employee or it might all be true. If the guy had a problem he should have brought it to tribunal and not be so unprofessional by writing and releasing this information. 

    But please don't dismiss 5 pages of discussion, it is very disingenuous. 
    I should inform you that it has been proven a FACT that David Jennison did not write that letter to release it to the public. He wrote it and sent it to fellow co-workers before he left the company as to why he was leaving. After he had left it was leaked to the public. It was verified by multiple sources that he did not want that to go public. He also had Derek Smart remove the copy of it from his blog as well.

    OK, i realized I just used the D-word so lets not turn this into a DS discussion just because I mentioned his name.

    Here is an article written about the letter. At the end, the author put up an update saying  the following:

    UPDATE: We had incorrectly attributed this letter to Jennison's LinkedIn page, but he contacted us to clear up the matter and confirm it was a leak. We apologise for any confusion.

    http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/news/departing-designer-sheds-dim-light-on-cigs-corporate-culture,409742

     
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:

    Brenics said:


    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
    Weird I could of sworn we were on a site for MMORPG's. Amazing!

    Oh can you ever type something without an attack in it? 
    Yeah this game is no longer exclusively about MMORPGS much to my disappointment. 

    Stop writing comments that are so needing of attack for their lack of facts/point/value/etc... and I will gladly stop attacking them.

    If your arguments are not up to withstanding attack then do not make them in the first place. 


    Clearly a lot of others believe SC is an MMO!

    https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/14268/star-citizen-mmo-or-not-clear-answer-please

    So guess you are confused about the game you are defending. 
    Are you being dense on purpose?

    Where did I say SC was not an MMO? 

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Shodanas said:

    Lets not veer off-topic though, because I sense the jail overlay coming towards my avatar picture. Let us get back on topic. 
    I think were all on the same page in that, when you create a miserable work environment and creative folks aren't happy, creativity and production suffer. All the murals and 5000$ espresso machines aren't going to change that.  Which takes us back to the topic of how Robers has created a miserable work environment for his employees as stated by David Jennison - former lead character designer for Star Citizen.
    5 pages disagree with your premise. Please don't try such a low tactic as trying to ignore the rest of the thread to try and claim some moral victory when there hasn't been one, on either side. 
    Actually, the very core of the topic is that according to David Jennison former lead character designer for Star Citizen, Chris Roberts created a poor working environment due to his poor decision making and poor choice of team leadership.  Here is the link so you can review it again.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/

    A topic that is no longer discussion worthy as so many people have stated here that regardless of what kind of working environment CR created it doesn't matter as the industry wide "Game Making Cabal" will destroy the careers of anyone who speaks out against mistreatment. So nothing will ever change. So to me this means anyone in the gaming industry who works under someone else can only expect mistreatment with no recourse to the law at all. And when any of us hear the horror stories we apparently are supposed to just shrug and think "Well that's just how things go in the game making industry." Honestly it makes me wonder why any sane person would want a job making games at all if the business is so toxic and totalitarian.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    A topic that is no longer discussion worthy as so many people have stated here that regardless of what kind of working environment CR created it doesn't matter as the industry wide "Game Making Cabal" will destroy the careers of anyone who speaks out against mistreatment. So nothing will ever change. So to me this means anyone in the gaming industry who works under someone else can only expect mistreatment with no recourse to the law at all. And when any of us hear the horror stories we apparently are supposed to just shrug and think "Well that's just how things go in the game making industry." Honestly it makes me wonder why any sane person would want a job making games at all if the business is so toxic and totalitarian.
    I worked for a while at EA and got to know a few of the developers. I certainly cannot comment on ALL developers but certainly from the ones I spoke to the environment itself is very difficult. Long hours, tight deadlines and when it comes to crunch time no semblance of any normal life for long duration's. The guys I got to know where coming up to a release time for their new game and they were literally doing 20 hour days for 6-8 weeks to meet deadlines. As they put it "the job isn't for everyone and you have to love what you do and put up with the bad stuff so you can put your name on the finished product".

    I guess you either put up with it or leave. 

    It is not unique to the industry though. I know some estate agents that do 16 hours a day 6 days a week but they do it just for the money not because they love the job. At least with game development you do it (hopefully) because you have passion for the creations you make. 
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Ok I really don't want to appear too critical but when you click the video link it should start at 51:50.  You notice how unaware they seem to be about answering the question of the female character models.  Then the guy on the left with what looks like very angry expression says all the models are being completely redone.  This video is from 2016, maybe as far back as 10-2015.  But anyways it shows someone doesn't  like the current models for whatever apparent reason.  The guy on the left clearly doesn't agree.  Yet the current models look pretty damn good if I might say.  Yet again you will not see them because they are being scrapped and completely redone.  ALL of them, not some of them.  There goes another year...
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919
    filmoret said:
     Then the guy on the left with what looks like very angry expression says all the models are being completely redone. 
    The guy on the left with the "very angry expression"......

    Ahh, you mean the one who is smiling at 51:30,  chews his gum at 51:40, smiles broadly at 51:47, listens attentively at 52:00,  talks about the model rework at 52:10, smiles again at 52:30, chews some more on his gum, smiles again broadly at 52:35 and makes a joke about the "optional" wearing of pants at the CIG office at 53:00

    THAT guy with THAT  "very angry expression" ? 


    Have fun
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    filmoret said:
     Then the guy on the left with what looks like very angry expression says all the models are being completely redone. 
    The guy on the left with the "very angry expression"......

    Ahh, you mean the one who is smiling at 51:30,  chews his gum at 51:40, smiles broadly at 51:47, listens attentively at 52:00,  talks about the model rework at 52:10, smiles again at 52:30, chews some more on his gum, smiles again broadly at 52:35 and makes a joke about the "optional" wearing of pants at the CIG office at 53:00

    THAT guy with THAT  "very angry expression" ? 


    Have fun

    I think yours and my definition of smilingly broadly might differ somewhat.

    I think we can agree he chews his gum, listens and then talks about the model rework at 52:10 by saying "all models are being completely redone", which earns him looks from half the people there and the rest just go blank face.

    He actually doesn't make a joke at 53:00 its the man in the money hat who does, but the obvious elephant in the room is now the info he talked about that was not planned on being said at all. The awkwardness of them trying to play off the comment like nothing happened is worse then if you just farted loudly and it smells like a dead skunk in a job interview.
  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Well, I wouldn't say he turned into a very angry expression, but he did go from smiling to very very serious expression pretty quickly.
     
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919
    Well, I wouldn't say he turned into a very angry expression, but he did go from smiling to very very serious expression pretty quickly.
    Its called "listening".


    Have fun
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Well, I wouldn't say he turned into a very angry expression, but he did go from smiling to very very serious expression pretty quickly.
    Its called "listening".


    Have fun

    or potentially realizing he just screwed up and is now worried his job is at stake
  • rodarinrodarin Member EpicPosts: 2,499
    edited March 2016
    Well they obviously had a follow up question to the remodels and at 53:20 they elaborate a little more, and say its character model not ship remodel, but then the big guy with glasses says ships will also get remodeled eventually, half jokingly, but he obviously knows how things work there.

    So it depends on how you look at that whole exchange. I dont think they wanted the remodel 'leaked' and thus went into the cringe worthy exchange about pants. Then when they had time to compose themselves a little they took a follow up question addressed it directly and then to make it more lassaiz faire they claim that basically everything will eventually be redone. Which was their way of planting the seed that character remodeling was no big deal.

    But it all adds up this game wont see the light of day (if it ever does) until 2020 I wouldnt imagine. And the ONLY way it continues is for people to spend money on it. Either through ships, subbing for 'developer news' or buying whatever single player game they can throw together. The SC everyone dreamed of is a long long ways off (well the facsimile of what they dreamed of anyway). If they dont raise salaries that means they need to raise 150 million or so just to pay people using their cost figures. Can they raise that much more? Maybe, if the single player game sells they can.

    But that is obviously a hyper conservative number, so if they have set the stage for that being the number you would more than likely have to double or even triple t to make it fit Roberts wasteful style. So while people can be hung up on the 110 mil they have made so far that isnt 30% of what theyre going to need to actually finish this thing.

    If a new and better engine or way of doing things come along then all bets are off because then they (well Chris Roberts) will want to use it. and how much (more) money will be wasted then?


Sign In or Register to comment.