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I found this to actually be an intelligent discussion.

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  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Brenics said:
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
    They get paid to help close any negative threads. All about the money to them not the truth!
    That's because there are no "facts" in this thread, lol

    The fact that someone made an allegation does not make that allegation a fact.
    Only because you and other SC fans say there isn't does not make it true. You do realize that comment was taken from another thread? Maybe you should get the whole picture from that one. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,665
    I have no doubt that the SC development is less than 100% efficient (*cough*). That tends to happen when a creative mind is given access to virtually unlimited funds.

    "It must be perfect ! And if it's not perfect, we'll keep on doing it over and over again until it is !"

    In the old world, we had games that were "released too soon" because the creative minds were brutally overridden by financial overlords. Features were cut, known bugs were shipped and testing was "limited", all to meet a pre-arranged deadline.

    Now we have creative minds that are given free reign (and free money), so that they can realise their vision to the full". It's no surprise that things are taking longer than they did before. People are just not ready to accept that they are taking THAT much longer, lol


    Roberts overstates his brilliance (granted, as do a bunch of others).  He overstates his management prowess (and his micromanagement is a net negative).  The last time his so called 'creative genius' was given free reign in the game industry, he spent four years at Digital Anvil with nothing to show for it, but a lot of money spent.   Jennison's analysis gives a good read on why this  happens.  Again and again.


    In the past that 'creative mind' was overridden because he was incapable of delivering without endangering the companies involved.  Even with the public money spigot, Chris Roberts will certainly not be able to finish up all the games' claims as described, due to his unrealistic vision, micromanagement  tendencies, and profligate ways.  Thus the new focus on Squadron 42 by Erin Roberts, who has actually shown he can release games.   In this century....


    The PU?  That's a long and bumpy road into the future....



    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    edited March 2016
    I have no doubt that the SC development is less than 100% efficient (*cough*). That tends to happen when a creative mind is given access to virtually unlimited funds.

    "It must be perfect ! And if it's not perfect, we'll keep on doing it over and over again until it is !"

    In the old world, we had games that were "released too soon" because the creative minds were brutally overridden by financial overlords. Features were cut, known bugs were shipped and testing was "limited", all to meet a pre-arranged deadline.

    Now we have creative minds that are given free reign (and free money), so that they can realise their vision to the full". It's no surprise that things are taking longer than they did before. People are just not ready to accept that they are taking THAT much longer, lol


    Roberts overstates his brilliance (granted, as do a bunch of others).  He overstates his management prowess (and his micromanagement is a net negative).  The last time his so called 'creative genius' was given free reign in the game industry, he spent four years at Digital Anvil with nothing to show for it, but a lot of money spent.   Jennison's analysis gives a good read on why this  happens.  Again and again.


    In the past that 'creative mind' was overridden because he was incapable of delivering without endangering the companies involved.  Even with the public money spigot, Chris Roberts will certainly not be able to finish up all the games' claims as described, due to his unrealistic vision, micromanagement  tendencies, and profligate ways.  Thus the new focus on Squadron 42 by Erin Roberts, who has actually shown he can release games.   In this century....


    The PU?  That's a long and bumpy road into the future....



    Agree but the other problem even Erin can't fix, is Roberts has blown majority of cash and he needs to keep bring in 3 mill a month. Soon he will have to start selling assets just to stay afloat. If Erin can put SQ42 out by then at least the backers will get something. I just don't believe they have the time and money to do it. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,944
    Brenics said:
    Agree but the other problem even Erin can't fix, is Roberts has blown majority of cash
    Speculation.

    ** sigh **

    Any proof ?   

    Yes, you heard the same question a dozen times before and never delivered, but for the sake of completeness i ask again.

    And no, the Roberts quote with the "3 million per month" is NOT proof that he "has blown the majority of cash".


    Have fun

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:

    Agree but the other problem even Erin can't fix, is Roberts has blown majority of cash and he needs to keep bring in 3 mill a month. Soon he will have to start selling assets just to stay afloat. If Erin can put SQ42 out by then at least the backers will get something. I just don't believe they have the time and money to do it. 
    Er....

    That quoted 3 million a month is the rough overheads of continued development. Where on earth did you get he is running out of money from stating what the business overheads are?
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Erillion said:
    Brenics said:
    Agree but the other problem even Erin can't fix, is Roberts has blown majority of cash
    Speculation.

    ** sigh **

    Any proof ?   

    Yes, you heard the same question a dozen times before and never delivered, but for the sake of completeness i ask again.

    And no, the Roberts quote with the "3 million per month" is NOT proof that he "has blown the majority of cash".


    Have fun

    You should know by now that asking said poster to back up his statements is as futile as resisting to the Borg.
  • Broken.ArrowBroken.Arrow Member UncommonPosts: 84

    I find it sad in this day and age so many people feel its their "deity of your choice's" given right to complain, but nobody seems to want to accept responsibility to actually fucking do something to make things better. Maybe that's the kind of oversight this industry needs. Less bellyaching and more doing something. Be loud, be proud, and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!" 
    I have nothing against you personally but your "ideas" on how to take actions are naive, infantile and absolutely out of touch with reality. You know nothing about the career suicide whistleblowers end up committing if they publicly out the nasty "deity of your choice", even with sufficient evidence to prove misconduct, misdoings and mismanagement in a court of law.

    Others have already filled you in on the bullet-points but one more point I want to add is that with a project like SC, where you have the elements of most committed and most deluded strata of society worship the "idea" of SC, if not Croberts himself...to publicly take a stand against all the misdoings literally will put your life at risk. Its still tame on such a sellout forum, where shills will discredit the former employee or spin remedy it to something like "annual turnover, everything is awesome". And the cultists will circle jerk it till everything looks like life as usual. But out there in real life, whistleblowers' lives are actually destroyed. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

    Thats a rather famous public example of how low cultists will actually stoop to. There are thousands of other examples of non-famous incidents which have resulted in whistle-blowers, journos and activists getting killed in broad daylight. 

    ---

    A proud User of [[Adblock Plus]], to block out all the bullshit paid advertisements (also read as "game reviews") spam on mmorpg.com. 

    ----


    I was banned for pointing out the obvious faults in a game 2 months before it released.
    Now after release, repeating the very same words from back then would be like preaching to the choir on this site.
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,665
    Erillion said:
    Brenics said:
    Agree but the other problem even Erin can't fix, is Roberts has blown majority of cash
    Speculation.

    ** sigh **

    Any proof ?   

    Yes, you heard the same question a dozen times before and never delivered, but for the sake of completeness i ask again.

    And no, the Roberts quote with the "3 million per month" is NOT proof that he "has blown the majority of cash".


    Have fun


    Well, there is the 67 day mo-cap shoot at one of the top studios in its field.  As I recall that studio was doing the new Star Wars as well.  Not cheap.   There's also lots of A list acting talent.  Now, I know that was a stretch goal, and the collection of actors are pretty cool.   But it was a +1 million stretch goal, iirc.  Given Roberts real desire to be viewed as a Hollywood nabob,  there's no telling how much he spent on all that.   The mo cap companies charge by the second of delivered footage.  And then there's the rental of facilities, etc.   I've also heard rumours of further mo cap needed to fix up some aspects. 


    There's also the expense of all those much-ballyhooed contracts with various companies who were going to work on the 'modular approach' to SC development.   An approach that now appears to have failed, as they've all been dropped, and with the work (and re-work) being done in-house. 


    And according to Jennison, there was a tremendous amount of re-work inefficiency (and general inefficiency) related to Chris being Chris.  He's still there,  and still doubtless drawing a salary commensurate to his ego.  And Sandi's too!


    I personally have no idea how much money he's got left for SC.  However he's been pretty profligate in the past.  But fans of the game should really be buying more ships to funnel them more money for development.  It's the only way to be sure!

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Yep the backers better put up more cash if they want SQ42 to get finished. I doubt SC can ever get finished without another 200m in pledges. That is taking into how many redo's Roberts decides to do.


    Good luck, have a great day.
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    bartoni33 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    If the investors (internet backers) never get to see the thing then yes it is. The mural is not for the investors (internet backers) benefit. Therefor no backer money should be used for it.

    I know you and others pointed out to me that pretties give other rich people hard-ons to invest their money in a company. That's fine. But no actual gamer backer money should be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game. The players and their best interests should come first.

    Let's be honest, they have enough money to make the damn game. They are just taking their time.
    internet backers aren't investors, they are donators.  They get no ownership in CIG, they simply donated money to CIG and trusted them to use that money well.
    That is true in a way. Internet backers are actually paying customers. Paying customers should be treated better than investors. Paying customers money should not be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game.

    Fixed and thanks!

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    bartoni33 said:

    Paying customers money should not be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game.

    Fixed and thanks!
    How about on a good working environment for the creative process? Or should they all sit in little square cubicles and only come out when it is time to go home?

    It honestly sounds like you guy work in the most dreary and lifeless places.

    I can tell you I worked in a few places where the work was shit but because of the office and frill's I actually enjoyed working there even if the actual work I did while I was there sucked. 
  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    edited March 2016
    bartoni33 said:

    Paying customers money should not be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game.

    Fixed and thanks!
    How about on a good working environment for the creative process? Or should they all sit in little square cubicles and only come out when it is time to go home?

    It honestly sounds like you guy work in the most dreary and lifeless places.

    I can tell you I worked in a few places where the work was shit but because of the office and frill's I actually enjoyed working there even if the actual work I did while I was there sucked. 
    Yes I do actually work in a dreary and lifeless place. As do most folks.

    I question how "creative" a person is if they need walls full of pretties and chotskies to perform their job.

    That last sentence makes me sad and a little angry at the same time. But that's my problem and I will not get into it. =)

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Brenics said:
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
    They get paid to help close any negative threads. All about the money to them not the truth!
    WHAT!? By who!? Nobody bothered to tell me! Where the fuck do sign up for this amazing job offer!?

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited March 2016

    I find it sad in this day and age so many people feel its their "deity of your choice's" given right to complain, but nobody seems to want to accept responsibility to actually fucking do something to make things better. Maybe that's the kind of oversight this industry needs. Less bellyaching and more doing something. Be loud, be proud, and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!" 
    I have nothing against you personally but your "ideas" on how to take actions are naive, infantile and absolutely out of touch with reality. You know nothing about the career suicide whistleblowers end up committing if they publicly out the nasty "deity of your choice", even with sufficient evidence to prove misconduct, misdoings and mismanagement in a court of law.

    Others have already filled you in on the bullet-points but one more point I want to add is that with a project like SC, where you have the elements of most committed and most deluded strata of society worship the "idea" of SC, if not Croberts himself...to publicly take a stand against all the misdoings literally will put your life at risk. Its still tame on such a sellout forum, where shills will discredit the former employee or spin remedy it to something like "annual turnover, everything is awesome". And the cultists will circle jerk it till everything looks like life as usual. But out there in real life, whistleblowers' lives are actually destroyed. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout

    Thats a rather famous public example of how low cultists will actually stoop to. There are thousands of other examples of non-famous incidents which have resulted in whistle-blowers, journos and activists getting killed in broad daylight. 
    I honestly love how you and others like you seriously think the people like Chris Roberts and others in the gaming industry have an almost super villain level of autonomy to do as they please and destroy the lives of others with whom they disagree, either by their own hand or through their mephitic minions. Do they whisper something like "Hail Hydra" to each other at game conventions?

     I find your tirade that game makers and their minions are somehow totally above the law the height of hilarity, not only because its so much paranoid fantasy horse shit, but because that damning accusation also directly incriminates critics such as Derek Smart [mod edit]


    Post edited by Vaross on

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    bartoni33 said:

    Yes I do actually work in a dreary and lifeless place. As do most folks.

    I question how "creative" a person is if they need walls full of pretties and chotskies to perform their job.

    That last sentence makes me sad and a little angry at the same time. But that's my problem and I will not get into it. =)
    Sucks to be you then I guess because I have never worked in an office that doesn't have things like plants, pictures in frames, work place paraphernalia and nicely decorated receptions. 

    Creativity is often just the act of being inspired and it is harder to get inspired in a bland cubicle which is why creative companies have lots of 'stuff' to visually inspire their creative types. 

    And you would be suprised what free beers and snacks on a Friday afternoon on the company, some nice posters on the wall and a nice cafetiere can do for moral. 


  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    Such as ?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Brenics said:
    Brenics said:
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
    They get paid to help close any negative threads. All about the money to them not the truth!
    That's because there are no "facts" in this thread, lol

    The fact that someone made an allegation does not make that allegation a fact.
    Only because you and other SC fans say there isn't does not make it true. 
    Actually that is true, as without first hand knowledge what is being said is in no way fact, it's pure allegation, for all we really know the "villain" could be the interviewee that is the subject here. Maybe he just doesn't take critique well as well as takes no responsibility for subpar work? That's as common as the guy who accepts no other input or acts tyrannical in their leadership. Anything is possible in a he said, she said circumstance. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    Perhaps they had posters on the walls too....
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    bartoni33 said:

    Yes I do actually work in a dreary and lifeless place. As do most folks.

    I question how "creative" a person is if they need walls full of pretties and chotskies to perform their job.

    That last sentence makes me sad and a little angry at the same time. But that's my problem and I will not get into it. =)
    Sucks to be you then I guess because I have never worked in an office that doesn't have things like plants, pictures in frames, work place paraphernalia and nicely decorated receptions. 

    Creativity is often just the act of being inspired and it is harder to get inspired in a bland cubicle which is why creative companies have lots of 'stuff' to visually inspire their creative types. 

    And you would be suprised what free beers and snacks on a Friday afternoon on the company, some nice posters on the wall and a nice cafetiere can do for moral. 


    I see the issue here.

    I've never worked in a office full stop. I am a proud blue collar worker. What you have typed about "free beer and snacks, plants and picture frames and nicely decorated receptions" seems like an absurd, frivolous waste of money to me.

    I'm just gonna stop there. This discussion is way off topic and will drift into socioeconomic areas that are not fit to be discussed here. As we don't know where the money for the mural came from nor the actual cost of it, this whole thread is pointless TBPO.

    As are most threads regarding SC.

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Distopia said:
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 
    Try going back further, you haven't been around this industry long enough if the first game you bring up is WoW.
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:
    Distopia said:
    Brenics said:
    Yet the best games minus WoW were made in someones garage or basement.

    Let that sink in for a second. :)
    I wouldn't consider WOW anywhere near the best of anything TBH. Secondly, Morrowind, Shenmue, KOTOR, Total War, SWG, Suikoden, etc.. were made no where near anyone's basement. 
    Try going back further, you haven't been around this industry long enough if the first game you bring up is WoW.
    You brought up WOW first so is this talking to yourself?
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    Brenics said:
    I also like how you bring up non-mmo's. :)
    Are non MMO's not games?

    Stop being intentionally dumb with your replies, you bring the conversation and yourself down. 
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