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I found this to actually be an intelligent discussion.

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  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
     
    Well I can't say that's impossible, but it seems like something he would have mentioned in his laundry list of reasons he left. "I tried to take it up with Chris but he just acted like an asshole and made me want to quit even more" seems to be something he wouldn't have left out of his litany of complaints.

     And if as you say he has the balls to do what's right, you think he would have wanted this information publicly aired where it might do some good.

    Addendum: The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar one, so I fail to see how it could be considered a "small place". There are many laws in place to fight workplace discrimination. And since this is the information age where a huge outlet of social media is just one keyboard away, I don't see how companies could black list someone without getting their ass legally handed to them, and their reputations murdered in the court of public opinion.

    I'm sorry but I feel the blackballing thing is just another excuse for people to not take responsibility for their own actions. IE "Let someone else stick their neck out". 
    Your not incorrect in thinking people need to stand up for themselves.  In my quote it clearly shows people giving valid responses to decisions made by CR and being shot down not based on any logic but based on the fact that it makes CR happy.  This kind of unreasonable responses makes everyone see clearly that confronting CR about this would only result in how loud he can shout and abuse authority.  You must realize this isn't a corporation or democracy.  Its a dictatorship with 1 leader who calls all the shots.  You mess with that 1 person then you lose your job.  He realized it wouldn't change so he left in a professional manner.  Not having some shouting contest and getting fired.  It is very clear that the staff is trying to be reasonable about things.  And very clear that their reasonable responses are being ignored and also very clear that there is nothing that can be done.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Yeah you cant always fight the power. I worked at a place for 5 years where I just couldn't get management to listen to some serious issues with the handling of work and how it effects the customer and employees. I watched my department dwindle down from 9 to 2 before I finally bailed only leaving the owners stepson... who left 6 months later.

    Sometimes you just know when you're wasting your time and its time to take a hike
     
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Well then if you feel there truly is nothing that can be done, I guess this marks the end of any needed discussion about SC. See you guys in the BDO forums I guess.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Well I can't say that's impossible, but it seems like something he would have mentioned in his laundry list of reasons he left. "I tried to take it up with Chris but he just acted like an asshole and made me want to quit even more" seems to be something he wouldn't have left out of his litany of complaints.

     And if as you say he has the balls to do what's right, you think he would have wanted this information publicly aired where it might do some good.

    Addendum: The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar one, so I fail to see how it could be considered a "small place". There are many laws in place to fight workplace discrimination. And since this is the information age where a huge outlet of social media is just one keyboard away, I don't see how companies could black list someone without getting their ass legally handed to them, and their reputations murdered in the court of public opinion.

    I'm sorry but I feel the blackballing thing is just another excuse for people to not take responsibility for their own actions. IE "Let someone else stick their neck out". 
    It may be a billion dollar industry but think of gamersgate and the private forum (email list??cant remember exactly) where high ranking people talked to each other and could decide the fate of someone's career if they didn't fall in line. The same is true for the gaming industry with all the big corps holding a lot of the power and talking amongst themselves.

    This is the digital age with social media but you would have no way to prove they are discriminating against you. All that would have to say is "they wouldn't have meshed well with our company dynamic" or hell even hired you for a week and then let you go and not have to give a reason. 

    He he may have had the balls to stand up to Chris but he chose not to include it in his letter. It would have given any company ammo to use against him during interviews by saying he seems to have a problem with authority. 

    Again this is all speculation and I could be missin the mark by a mile but I do feel like the gaming industry is like one big boys club and if you piss off one member then you have probably pissed off the rest as well.
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Kefo said:
    Well I can't say that's impossible, but it seems like something he would have mentioned in his laundry list of reasons he left. "I tried to take it up with Chris but he just acted like an asshole and made me want to quit even more" seems to be something he wouldn't have left out of his litany of complaints.

     And if as you say he has the balls to do what's right, you think he would have wanted this information publicly aired where it might do some good.

    Addendum: The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar one, so I fail to see how it could be considered a "small place". There are many laws in place to fight workplace discrimination. And since this is the information age where a huge outlet of social media is just one keyboard away, I don't see how companies could black list someone without getting their ass legally handed to them, and their reputations murdered in the court of public opinion.

    I'm sorry but I feel the blackballing thing is just another excuse for people to not take responsibility for their own actions. IE "Let someone else stick their neck out". 
    It may be a billion dollar industry but think of gamersgate and the private forum (email list??cant remember exactly) where high ranking people talked to each other and could decide the fate of someone's career if they didn't fall in line. The same is true for the gaming industry with all the big corps holding a lot of the power and talking amongst themselves.

    This is the digital age with social media but you would have no way to prove they are discriminating against you. All that would have to say is "they wouldn't have meshed well with our company dynamic" or hell even hired you for a week and then let you go and not have to give a reason. 

    He he may have had the balls to stand up to Chris but he chose not to include it in his letter. It would have given any company ammo to use against him during interviews by saying he seems to have a problem with authority. 

    Again this is all speculation and I could be missin the mark by a mile but I do feel like the gaming industry is like one big boys club and if you piss off one member then you have probably pissed off the rest as well.
    And again if that's how you truly feel then I guess there is no percentage in either of us contributing to this discussion any more, as it seems these companies rule with an iron fist and have nothing to fear from we faceless forum monkeys, or indeed their abused wage slaves. I find it strange that so many of you put so much effort and fury into a battle you claim can never be won.

    Oh well, guess we can all start baseball teams or something and continue our rivalries that way.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,656

    Whistleblower laws exist for a reason.   Because the real world is somewhat different from Mr. Zeebub's fantasy of stalwart confrontation of The Man.


    Other folks might want to get a grounding on whistleblower protections and organizational retaliation.  Whistleblowers can face legal action, criminal charges, social stigma, and termination from their livelihood.   Lower level workers will often not be believed if they raise issues.  (Remember the abuse of the Escapist sources?  No wonder they wanted to stay anonymous.) 


    And consider, if Jennison is shooting straight from the hip, think about  all those other mid to high level devs who found themselves some other place of employment, once the internal SC picture became clear.  Some people like to say that  turnover happens all the time (though I haven't seen a source for THAT truism), but usually higher level devs like to finish out their work, especially on a game seen as important. 


    And the tales of SC's Emperor Roberts are the same ones that I hear about from his Origin days.   He hasn't learned a thing.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited March 2016

    Whistleblower laws exist for a reason.   Because the real world is somewhat different from Mr. Zeebub's fantasy of stalwart confrontation of The Man.


    Other folks might want to get a grounding on whistleblower protections and organizational retaliation.  Whistleblowers can face legal action, criminal charges, social stigma, and termination from their livelihood.   Lower level workers will often not be believed if they raise issues.  (Remember the abuse of the Escapist sources?  No wonder they wanted to stay anonymous.) 


    And consider, if Jennison is shooting straight from the hip, think about  all those other mid to high level devs who found themselves some other place of employment, once the internal SC picture became clear.  Some people like to say that  turnover happens all the time (though I haven't seen a source for THAT truism), but usually higher level devs like to finish out their work, especially on a game seen as important. 


    And the tales of SC's Emperor Roberts are the same ones that I hear about from his Origin days.   He hasn't learned a thing.

    Why should Chris Roberts, or any game making robber baron overlord, bother to learn to behave in any other manner than they currently do? Since anyone with the legitimate ability to criticize and expose him are too chickenshit to do anything but bury their heads in the sand and hope for the best, what reason would the man ever have to change the way he does anything? Why should it matter if Jennison is shooting from the hip or not. According to you guys no matter what damning evidence he dredges up, its not going to matter diddly fuck. And for his effort his career is going to be totally ruined by the "Game Maker Bastard Ninja Cabal" anyway.

    So if anyone who has actually been inside the machine can't change things one iota what does that say about your little anonymous anti-fan efforts? Why do you continue to fight a forum flame war you completely admit is a total lost cause before the battle has even started?


    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919
    edited March 2016
     Why do you continue to fight a forum flame war you completely admit is a total lost cause before the battle has even started?
    Because a good conspiracy theory it makes .....


    http://www.conservapedia.com/Conspiracy_theory

    "Common elements of Conspiracy Theories

    The target blamed for everything may change, but most destructive conspiracy theories believe the same things:

    • The world is divided into 'us' and 'them'. We are "good," and they are "evil."
    • Our opponents are evil and subversive...
    • "They" are responsible for our troubles – We are blameless and without fault.
    • Time is running out, and we must act immediately to avoid disaster."
    "Conspiracy theories provide an important element of certainty in a world that seems random and perverse. Believing that a small, evil group controls everything is actually more reassuring to some minds than believing things just happen by random circumstance."


    Have fun



  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    bartoni33 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    If the investors (internet backers) never get to see the thing then yes it is. The mural is not for the investors (internet backers) benefit. Therefor no backer money should be used for it.

    I know you and others pointed out to me that pretties give other rich people hard-ons to invest their money in a company. That's fine. But no actual gamer backer money should be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game. The players and their best interests should come first.

    Let's be honest, they have enough money to make the damn game. They are just taking their time.
    internet backers aren't investors, they are donators.  They get no ownership in CIG, they simply donated money to CIG and trusted them to use that money well.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    edited March 2016
    Embers said:
    I'm having fun just watching all the drama over this game being developed.  Never seen anything like it.
    I have to agree.  I've seen the drama after release for games like AoC and the horrid Alganon.  but never anything like this for a game in development.  Although I wish social media was as pervasive when Daikatana was released or Duke Nukem Forever kept getting delayed.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,303
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904
    bartoni33 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    If the investors (internet backers) never get to see the thing then yes it is. The mural is not for the investors (internet backers) benefit. Therefor no backer money should be used for it.

    I know you and others pointed out to me that pretties give other rich people hard-ons to invest their money in a company. That's fine. But no actual gamer backer money should be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game. The players and their best interests should come first.

    Let's be honest, they have enough money to make the damn game. They are just taking their time.
    internet backers aren't investors, they are donators.  They get no ownership in CIG, they simply donated money to CIG and trusted them to use that money well.
    So how does he get around: "i give you money, and someday we will give you a game to play".

    Seems like an exchange of goods for wealth to me.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread
    Or this letter has already been discussed ad nauseam because it is many months old and all this is just a repetition of arguments that have already been made a lot of times before. You find an example link to previous discussions in this thread. Same arguments, same people --> same outcome. Deja vu.

    Furthermore CIG has undergone various organisational changes since then (made by Erin Roberts), including the character and ship pipelines.


    Have fun
  • saurus123saurus123 Member UncommonPosts: 667
    neverending character remodeling :D
  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Member EpicPosts: 1,950
    Star Citizen was my personal GOTY for 2015. It barely exists off paper, yet has provided me with hours worth of entertainment, and for free at that!

    Looks to be about the same for 2016. Maybe even 2017. 

    Fact of the matter is, pretty much any project where Roberts called the shots was a complete disaster. Strike Commander was under his creative control, and it released way past the initial target date, was buggy as a big bug bugging out on a dune buggy, and went way over budget. Assets were scrapped and redone completely several times... sound familiar?

    Contrary to popular belief, the only thing lent to Privateer by Roberts was the concept. He had little to no creative control over the game. Using it as an example of his competency is, in a word, ignorant. 

    Next came Freelancer, a game which was supposed to release in 2000. It got pushed back to late 2001, and finally released in 2003 after Microsoft bought out Digital Anvil and cut down the original scope of the game, due to being way over budget. Again, sound familiar?

    Oh, and now we get the Wing Commander movie. It suffered from bad casting, bad art design, a nonsensical plot, bad direction, Lucas level dialogue, and failed on every conceivable level. Roberts had complete control over all these things, and in fact wrote, produced, and directed it. Digital Anvil did all the special effects too... including the absolutely ridiculous Kilrathi puppets, to spacecraft actually dropping off the end of the runway when taking off, to misspelling the names of Roberts' own characters. And we can't forget the part where they all have to be quiet because a destroyer is hunting them. You know, in their space ship. Just let that sink in for a moment. To paraphrase a certain internet reviewer, "You could have Slayer playing a concert in the mess hall while shoving a cat through a garbage disposal and NOBODY OUTSIDE THE SHIP WOULD HEAR YOU!"

    At least crap like Space Mutiny is entertainingly bad. Wing Commander is just tragic. Oh, and it was also over budget. Go figure. 

    Look, Roberts' talents as a creator aren't in question, and never were. But as the manager of a business, his history is undeniably made up of nothing but one failure after another, going over budget and in the case of games, suffering constant scrapping and retooling of assets, as well as feature creep. That's why I tend to believe all the tales of budget issues and gross mismanagement are more than just hogwash. He's never had much success as a businessman, and all the evidence points to yet another failure on his part. 

    I actually don't want this game to fail, because if it does it's going to pull down crowd funding with it. Plus it does sound genuinely cool. But there are far too many red flags to ignore, and the Roberts 42nd White Knight Brigade like to both pretend and tell others that they don't exist. Those issues need to be made known, and Roberts needs to be held accountable for his complete and utter lack of progress. 

    If he had something to show other than an extremely buggy tech / concept demo, nobody would care that he has a nice mural, or a cozy office with lots of ship models and whatnot. Unfortunately, what they have after over $100 million and several years is laughable at best. Some pretty expansive games have been produced far more quickly, and with much smaller budgets. 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

    We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD. 

    #IStandWithVic

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    So people are claiming that CR finally decided to delegate authority and become an overseer instead of micromanaging everything.  Does anyone have a link to that particular decision?  And could someone please explain why redoing all the models character,ship, and otherwise?  Because while we appear to be criticizing CR for his decisions I don't see anyone with a legitimate explanation for these decisions.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    filmoret said:
    So people are claiming that CR finally decided to delegate authority and become an overseer instead of micromanaging everything.  Does anyone have a link to that particular decision?  And could someone please explain why redoing all the models character,ship, and otherwise?  Because while we appear to be criticizing CR for his decisions I don't see anyone with a legitimate explanation for these decisions.
    TBH as a musician I've dealt with plenty of creative types who just can't work well with others, or give merit to the ideas of others (I'm sure I can come off that way as well, when I don't like the input being offered on a piece I've written), there usually is little explanation, it's an issue of personality, vision, and different measures of hubris. Most want to believe their idea is best when it comes to creative endeavors, yet when one has sole creative control, such power is often exploited, their ideas are automatically best. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919
    filmoret said:
    So people are claiming that CR finally decided to delegate authority and become an overseer instead of micromanaging everything.  Does anyone have a link to that particular decision?  And could someone please explain why redoing all the models character,ship, and otherwise?  Because while we appear to be criticizing CR for his decisions I don't see anyone with a legitimate explanation for these decisions.
    "As we announced in June with the appointment of Erin Roberts as Global Production Head we have been reviewing how to optimize our development process," the statement continues. "As a result we are moving some jobs and eliminating some redundant positions between some of our offices, as well as increasing them in others. The net result over the next few months will actually be an increase in our global internal employee base."

    http://www.polygon.com/2015/9/25/9399345/star-citizen-is-reorganizing-its-teams-not-conducting-layoffs

    Erin is now calling the shots when it comes to production, with special emphasis on Foundry 42 (UK and Germany) and the solo game Squadron 42.  According to yesterdays Erin interview Foundry 42 is now at 220  employees (170 UK, 50 Germany). CIG in total seems to have gone up from 266 to 300 something, confirming that sentence: >>>The net result over the next few months will actually be an increase in our global internal employee base.>>>

    Under Erins supervision a lot of shuffling of people between offices has been going on, as you can see if you are a follower of the "Around the Verse" or "Reverse the Verse" videoblogs. You can read the TLDR transcripts on the INN homepage if you do not want to watch the many videos.

    Chris Roberts is still involved in many creative decisions. On the CIG homepage you often will find "Jump Point" magazine articles about the creation of various ships. There you will find many conversations between the various artists and CR on the various aspects of the ships. You can see the evolution from one stage to the other, with CR having the final say in which direction a certain development goes.

    Why redoing characters, ships and locations ? Because that is what you do in alpha development. You try, test, redo, retest, tweak, polish. Some things works, others do not. Some things look good, others suck.

    Have there been some dead ends ? I am sure of that (see the Jennison letter). Is this unusual for such a large project ? No. Happens all the time in other projects too .... you just do not hear anything about it.


    Have fun


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,919

    Fact of the matter is, pretty much any project where Roberts called the shots was a complete disaster.
    When propaganda meets reality:

    Fact is, many developers would sell their mothers for "disasters" such as these:

    Wing Commander PC  Rating 8.3
    Wing Commander: The Kilrathi Saga PC  Rating 7.3
    Wing Commander IV: The Price of Freedom Rating 8.9
    Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger Rating 8.7
    Freelancer  Rating 8.9

    That is just a selection - there are more. Some people claim - without evidence i might add, only based on rumours and their personal opinion  - that Chris Roberts had no significant part in most of these games. The game box covers, game wikipedia pages  and the international gaming press say otherwise. I believe more the journalists who visited the game production than a random poster on an internet forum who was never there and never met these people participating in the games production in person.


    Have fun 


  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,912
    I have no doubt that the SC development is less than 100% efficient (*cough*). That tends to happen when a creative mind is given access to virtually unlimited funds.

    "It must be perfect ! And if it's not perfect, we'll keep on doing it over and over again until it is !"

    In the old world, we had games that were "released too soon" because the creative minds were brutally overridden by financial overlords. Features were cut, known bugs were shipped and testing was "limited", all to meet a pre-arranged deadline.

    Now we have creative minds that are given free reign (and free money), so that they can realise their vision to the full". It's no surprise that things are taking longer than they did before. People are just not ready to accept that they are taking THAT much longer, lol
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,753
    Nitth said:
    bartoni33 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    If the investors (internet backers) never get to see the thing then yes it is. The mural is not for the investors (internet backers) benefit. Therefor no backer money should be used for it.

    I know you and others pointed out to me that pretties give other rich people hard-ons to invest their money in a company. That's fine. But no actual gamer backer money should be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game. The players and their best interests should come first.

    Let's be honest, they have enough money to make the damn game. They are just taking their time.
    internet backers aren't investors, they are donators.  They get no ownership in CIG, they simply donated money to CIG and trusted them to use that money well.
    So how does he get around: "i give you money, and someday we will give you a game to play".

    Seems like an exchange of goods for wealth to me.
    Indeed. But pre-purchasing e.g. Legion doesn't make you an Activision Blizzard "investor". You have simply given AB some money and are trusting them to someday give you a game to play.

    And when I pre-purchase via Kickstarter an OI bell for my bike (just because) it won't make me an investor in Knog though.

    And this is part of a much bigger and wider discussion. Which harks back to the times that led to the requirements placed on companies today to report accurately, with all the management that entails, to actual investors. 
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited March 2016
    I have no doubt that the SC development is less than 100% efficient (*cough*). That tends to happen when a creative mind is given access to virtually unlimited funds.

    "It must be perfect ! And if it's not perfect, we'll keep on doing it over and over again until it is !"

    In the old world, we had games that were "released too soon" because the creative minds were brutally overridden by financial overlords. Features were cut, known bugs were shipped and testing was "limited", all to meet a pre-arranged deadline.

    Now we have creative minds that are given free reign (and free money), so that they can realise their vision to the full". It's no surprise that things are taking longer than they did before. People are just not ready to accept that they are taking THAT much longer, lol
    I don't think you're wrong, this does seem to be the mentality of CR at present. He feels that cutting those big publisher ties, gives free reign to work every little detail out "as long as it takes". I think we're seeing that isn't the case, instead of pressure from behind closed doors, they're getting a healthy dose of public pressure. I think I'd prefer the former in such a situation, that at least entails dealing with people who know the business. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    I'll simplify this the best I can.  When creating an item you first need a concept which is more like a skeleton.  David's problem was he had several concepts and they were presented to the leadership with explanations on their limits and freedoms.  So CIG would choose a concept and David would then take 4-6 weeks molding it into an actual model that looks and walks like a human.  Once this process was finished he would present the model to the higher powers and because they didn't like the color of the skin or facial features they would make him start all over using a different concept.  David would then explain he didn't need a different concept he could just polish the current model.  They would ignore such explanations and make him throw the past 6 weeks of work into the garbage and start all over.

    So is this true or just hogwash?  Well since the video clearly states that they are redoing all models it is clear they have decided that the past 3 years of work is garbage and they are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get it right.  I wonder why they couldn't get it right in the first place.  It wasn't the fact that the models needed polishing but it was the fact that they trashed the concepts and had to start all over from scratch that caused the problem.  I thought the character models looked fantastic myself especially for an alpha product.  But somehow CIG has decided they need to be trashed and well there goes another 3 years.

    Also to be clear,  David is not some rookie.  He was the lead character artist for SOE in 2011.  That is SOE not some second rate company who only produced 1 title.

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
    They get paid to help close any negative threads. All about the money to them not the truth!
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,912
    Brenics said:
    It's funny how the white knights don't just ignore the facts of this thread but they actually look to distract from them.
    They get paid to help close any negative threads. All about the money to them not the truth!
    That's because there are no "facts" in this thread, lol

    The fact that someone made an allegation does not make that allegation a fact.
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