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I found this to actually be an intelligent discussion.

filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

@Deathenger ; This guy wrote the following and after reading the links I find it very factual and level headed about why this game is taking so long.  Basically they keep changing character models so they have to be completely redrawn instead of just tweaked.  Which makes me wonder if they are doing the same thing with the rest of the game.

One of the biggest negative things thats been reported over and over about this project is the micromanagement and changes that bring thing to a virtual stand still. Perfect example is this link where David Jennison the former Lead Character Designer tells why he quit Star Citizen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/

TLDR of that link is they spent more time remaking models than actually finishing them because of serious mismanagement, a hostile working environment and poor choice of team leaders.

The following video posted by SC "Reverse the Verse" last month. In the video the new guy Eric spills the beans and said that "All models are being redone" (character models). After a moment of silence and a look from Jabba-Rex they QUICKLY changed the subject to pants. PANTS!! LOL Fast Forward to 51:50 if the vid doesnt start in the proper time spot

https://youtu.be/zfY_l_UyB1w?t=3111

Pretty much give 100% cred to the post about David Jennisons reasons for quitting the project and the overall working conditions at CIG

Are you onto something or just on something?
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Comments

  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Thank you!

    Also its worth noting that the David Jennison write up was 6 months(ish) ago before the video of that Eric guy saying that all models were being redone.
     
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Allegedly from David Jennison...
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    Only if they are Biotech companies...I mean Game design studios....
  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Allegedly from David Jennison...
    No he confirmed it was his.  He just never wanted it to be public.  
  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    edited March 2016
    Allegedly from David Jennison...
    It's a confirmed leak. It was a letter he wrote to fellow employees and never meant for public view. It was leaked and confirmed by David Jennison that he did write it.

    http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/news/departing-designer-sheds-dim-light-on-cigs-corporate-culture,409742

    Snipit from the above article

    ""UPDATE: We had incorrectly attributed this letter to Jennison's LinkedIn page, but he contacted us to clear up the matter and confirm it was a leak. We apologise for any confusion.""

     
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited March 2016
    filmoret said:

    @Deathenger ; This guy wrote the following and after reading the links I find it very factual and level headed about why this game is taking so long.  Basically they keep changing character models so they have to be completely redrawn instead of just tweaked.  Which makes me wonder if they are doing the same thing with the rest of the game.

    One of the biggest negative things thats been reported over and over about this project is the micromanagement and changes that bring thing to a virtual stand still. Perfect example is this link where David Jennison the former Lead Character Designer tells why he quit Star Citizen.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/3lyfb1/david_jennison_former_lead_character_artist_in/

    TLDR of that link is they spent more time remaking models than actually finishing them because of serious mismanagement, a hostile working environment and poor choice of team leaders.

    The following video posted by SC "Reverse the Verse" last month. In the video the new guy Eric spills the beans and said that "All models are being redone" (character models). After a moment of silence and a look from Jabba-Rex they QUICKLY changed the subject to pants. PANTS!! LOL Fast Forward to 51:50 if the vid doesnt start in the proper time spot

    https://youtu.be/zfY_l_UyB1w?t=3111

    Pretty much give 100% cred to the post about David Jennisons reasons for quitting the project and the overall working conditions at CIG

    Well look at that, an intelligent Labradoodle. See guys, this is how you make posts that people might actually be willing to listen to. Not hysterical flame fest nonsense.

    Yeah it sounds like the annoying situation where a person is hired to oversee a job function but is not allowed to perform that job function with autonomy. I imagine the constant back seat driving was annoying but I'd be willing to be he also didn't want his name on what he felt were not his fuckups.

    It reminds me of my shock at the artist Derek Riggs reflections on being the exclusive artist for the band Iron Maiden for many years, and not enjoying it one single bit. Either they'd give him an insanely short deadline or call him up and want to make changes when he was half way through a painting.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,947
    Deja vu

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436814/derek-smarts-new-list-of-demands/p26

    The same things (in this case David Jennison's letter) are discussed every few months, with the same arguments and with the same results.


    Have fun



  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044
    edited March 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    wait...micromanagement is a problem but investors should be worried about murals?
    If the investors (internet backers) never get to see the thing then yes it is. The mural is not for the investors (internet backers) benefit. Therefor no backer money should be used for it.

    I know you and others pointed out to me that pretties give other rich people hard-ons to invest their money in a company. That's fine. But no actual gamer backer money should be used to impress suits that are just looking to make a buck off of the game. The players and their best interests should come first.

    Let's be honest, they have enough money to make the damn game. They are just taking their time.

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Erillion said:
    Deja vu

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436814/derek-smarts-new-list-of-demands/p26

    The same things (in this case David Jennison's letter) are discussed every few months, with the same arguments and with the same results.


    Have fun



    It's been mentioned in other threads but never a topic of it's own discussion. I would appreciate it if you would try and stay on topic and actually discuss David Jennison's account (confirmed as true by himself) of his experience while working for Roberts on Star Citizen and its relation to the confirmation of redoing all models by Eric in the above video.

    HAVE FUN!!
     
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Erillion said:
    Deja vu

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436814/derek-smarts-new-list-of-demands/p26

    The same things (in this case David Jennison's letter) are discussed every few months, with the same arguments and with the same results.


    Have fun



    It's been mentioned in other threads but never a topic of it's own discussion. I would appreciate it if you would try and stay on topic and actually discuss David Jennison's account (confirmed as true by himself) of his experience while working for Roberts on Star Citizen and its relation to the confirmation of redoing all models by Eric in the above video.

    HAVE FUN!!

    Why would you do that? You just got a pat on the back for actually referencing something useful and then the first argument that contradicts your post, you take to the lowest common denominator. Why? 

    Anyway, as far as the letter goes, I believe that the biggest complaint was with regards to creative direction. This was back at the time when CR had go/no-go authority. That's not the case any more. CR has already given up that authority. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • EmbersEmbers Member UncommonPosts: 66
    I'm having fun just watching all the drama over this game being developed.  Never seen anything like it.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    edited March 2016
    CrazKanuk said:
    It's been mentioned in other threads but never a topic of it's own discussion. I would appreciate it if you would try and stay on topic and actually discuss David Jennison's account (confirmed as true by himself) of his experience while working for Roberts on Star Citizen and its relation to the confirmation of redoing all models by Eric in the above video.

    HAVE FUN!!

    Why would you do that? You just got a pat on the back for actually referencing something useful and then the first argument that contradicts your post, you take to the lowest common denominator. Why? 

    Anyway, as far as the letter goes, I believe that the biggest complaint was with regards to creative direction. This was back at the time when CR had go/no-go authority. That's not the case any more. CR has already given up that authority. 
    What?  How is his post the "lowest common denominator"?  If had resorted to name calling then you have a point but no where did he resort to anything like that.  Slow down that crazy train...
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Talonsin said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    It's been mentioned in other threads but never a topic of it's own discussion. I would appreciate it if you would try and stay on topic and actually discuss David Jennison's account (confirmed as true by himself) of his experience while working for Roberts on Star Citizen and its relation to the confirmation of redoing all models by Eric in the above video.

    HAVE FUN!!

    Why would you do that? You just got a pat on the back for actually referencing something useful and then the first argument that contradicts your post, you take to the lowest common denominator. Why? 

    Anyway, as far as the letter goes, I believe that the biggest complaint was with regards to creative direction. This was back at the time when CR had go/no-go authority. That's not the case any more. CR has already given up that authority. 
    What?  How is his post the "lowest common denominator"?  If had resorted to name calling then you have a point but no where did he resort to anything like that.  Slow down that crazy train...

    True! Yes, I guess he didn't go to the name calling spot. Could have SWORN I read white knight in there somewhere. 

    Either way, in a thread where we're talking about an intelligent post, it demeans that post slightly when the poster jumps down the throat of the first person who (he thinks) is contradicting his post. In reality it's about as close to the line of admitting any wrong-doing as you might get @Erillion ;However, instead of maintaining the intelligence, it's "nail with a sledgehammer" mentality. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    Ok watching the video they do admit they are doing all the models over again and not just the characters.  I can see valid points by David when he says there's no reason to throw out concepts because the models need a little tweaking.  CR basically threw away all the work they did and started over because some of the models didn't look quite the way he wanted them.  David showed that this was a bad move because its the models that needed tweaking instead of starting from scratch.  Which cost the company 6 months of work just thrown in the trash because CR didn't know they just needed a little polish.

    I work with a multi billion dollar company and I can see some of the dumbest stuff that costs the company millions a year; and just saying companies make mistakes and it would be nice if some people could just admit they made a mistake instead of defending everything to the death.  Seems to me that CR needs to listen to his experts instead of forcing square pegs into moon shaped holes.

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • goobsnewsgoobsnews Member UncommonPosts: 209
    edited March 2016
    lol, mods here are shills. GG mmorpg.
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    What I find funny is the fact that on the one had you have the anti SC crowd saying CR was never the creative force behind any of his previous games and then argue that people leave because he will not allow others the freedom to create things without interference as he is making all the descisions. 

    I am very confused as to which is the lie and which lie I should believe.


  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    What I find funny is the fact that on the one had you have the anti SC crowd saying CR was never the creative force behind any of his previous games and then argue that people leave because he will not allow others the freedom to create things without interference as he is making all the descisions. 

    I am very confused as to which is the lie and which lie I should believe.


    Because those were different companies and different games, with different company structures?  You do understand that right?  The only real parallel you can draw is between Freelancer and SC.  Two games that CR was in charge of the company.  

    Freelancer was a game that was massively over budget and well behind its release date. Freelancer started in 97, and was supposed to release in 2000, but when that date arrived CR stated that they were behind and over budget, but it would take another 18 months to finish.  Microsoft purchased Digital Anvil and kicked CR to the curb.  Microsoft instantly started cutting the scope of the game, and it still took them another 3 years to release, putting the game at 6 years total.  So CR lied, or was very incompetent, about how long it would take to finish the game, and that was with his original scope.  Just think how long it would have taken if CR was left in charge.     

    Does any of this sound familiar?     
  • sgelsgel Member EpicPosts: 2,195
    What I find funny is the fact that on the one had you have the anti SC crowd saying CR was never the creative force behind any of his previous games and then argue that people leave because he will not allow others the freedom to create things without interference as he is making all the descisions. 

    I am very confused as to which is the lie and which lie I should believe.


    What? It's been apparent from the get go and mentioned a million times by CIG and many other people that EVERYTHING has to go through Chris Roberts.
    They even went as far as to say that the only thing you should take for granted is what Chris Roberts says, you shouldn't "believe" anyone else from CIG.

    Not sure who told you he wasn't the creative force in other games and why you think THE ENTIRE anti-SC crowd is saying THE EXACT same thing.

    I don't particularly care.

    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    ..Cake..

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    filmoret said:

    Ok watching the video they do admit they are doing all the models over again and not just the characters.  I can see valid points by David when he says there's no reason to throw out concepts because the models need a little tweaking.  CR basically threw away all the work they did and started over because some of the models didn't look quite the way he wanted them.  David showed that this was a bad move because its the models that needed tweaking instead of starting from scratch.  Which cost the company 6 months of work just thrown in the trash because CR didn't know they just needed a little polish.

    I work with a multi billion dollar company and I can see some of the dumbest stuff that costs the company millions a year; and just saying companies make mistakes and it would be nice if some people could just admit they made a mistake instead of defending everything to the death.  Seems to me that CR needs to listen to his experts instead of forcing square pegs into moon shaped holes.


    I don't think there are people defending this, are there? I'm not acting ignorant, I'm actually being serious. I think that the David Jennison letter was actually something the promoted some valid concerns. I mean you could make the case that it's probably not the entire truth, but it lies somewhere in the middle (as it usually does). 

    That being said, I believe this has already been addressed. I'm not a fan of micro-managing at all. While I can understand that CR might want the project to resemble his vision as closely as possible, he should really only be managing it at a high level. They have directors for a reason. So totally agree, he needs to express his vision more clearly to senior management and request updates, not hover. That being said, as mentioned before, I believe this already happened. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    sgel said:

    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    I dont think the majority of the anti-SC crowd feel that CR lacks creativity or did not contribute to his games.  That is mostly a product of the other side beating their own chests and trying to make a point.  I think the main concern for most of us is the poor management and waste of resources that has continuously been proven as a result of CR's poor stewardship of backers money 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    edited March 2016
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
    Just spent a few mins trying to find a particular quote as I posted CR's entire resume and Brenics and the usual haters basically said "he might be listed as producer on those games but he actually wasn't. He hasn't been in charge on any of the games he is listed as being in charge on" )or words to that effect). 

    Too many posts to plow through and I can't be bothered to waste my time. Believe me or don't but they are out there. 

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 9,947

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
    And again Deja Vu.

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    The same topics, the same people, the same arguments, the same results.


    Have fun

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