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The Lack of Endgame is Not a Problem That Needs Solving

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  • TruXurTTruXurT Member UncommonPosts: 18


    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.



    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"




    Well I saw people that reached lvl 50 within first few days of the game launch. This is not that hard to do if that's what you want to focus on. But by doing it so fast, you skip a lot of content and game systems. So yes, people at lvl 25 enjoy the game more, because they do more than just grinding themselves to a higher level. Bottom line is that the combat level (or as I call it a fishing level as to my dismay fishing does increase that level), does not define your character in the game. I think what does really is your contribution points. At this point with 4 characters (highest at combat/fishing lvl 25) I already accumulated 90 contribution points. Looking forward to doubling that.

    Enjoy the game. Do not worry about the level. That's what makes it special.

  • davchadavcha Member UncommonPosts: 130
    DMKano said:

    Level absolutely defines your character in BDO it is actually used to calculate "to hit", damage, mitigation and everything,  so level is one of the most important factors, followed by gear. 

    Try landing hits on a player 5 levels above you.....

    Please 
    So, if I have a combat level 50 with everything else being at level 1, can I ride a horse ?
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    davcha said:
    DMKano said:

    Level absolutely defines your character in BDO it is actually used to calculate "to hit", damage, mitigation and everything,  so level is one of the most important factors, followed by gear. 

    Try landing hits on a player 5 levels above you.....

    Please 
    So, if I have a combat level 50 with everything else being at level 1, can I ride a horse ?

    More appropriately, can you tame a horse?  Have you bred horses?  Have you built a boat?  Have you gone wailing?  How much trading have you done?  How many farms have you built?  How much crafting have you done?  We can go on and on ...

    If all you've done in BDO is rush to top level and engaged in combat, you've accomplished very little of what BDO has to offer.  There is much more to BDO than its combat level.  
  • davchadavcha Member UncommonPosts: 130
    More appropriately, can you tame a horse?  Have you bred horses?  Have you built a boat?  Have you gone wailing?  How much trading have you done?  How many farms have you built?  How much crafting have you done?  We can go on and on ...

    If all you've done in BDO is rush to top level and engaged in combat, you've accomplished very little of what BDO has to offer.  There is much more to BDO than its combat level.  
    This is basically what I meant.

    And combat (competitive combat or not, pvp or pve) is not the only activity that should be available/promoted. World of warcraft and its clones have been fun for a while, but ultimately, if I use the same logic as the logic used by some players in this thread, endgame is boring. Add new content, new raids, new enemies, new weapons, new armor... New abilities... It all reduce to the single thing you've done from the beginning of the game : kill and loot stuff. The stories told in this content may be interesting (most of the time they are not), but if I wanted someone to tell me a story in which I have no role, I'd be reading a book, or watch a movie. In theme parks mmorpgs, the role you play in the story is a delusion : from a storytelling point of view, your character is nothing more than a medium to give you access to the story. Reading wikis tells you the exact same story, for example. Often in a more intelligible way.

    So, it's kind of nice to have something different, for once.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,428
    davcha said:
    DMKano said:

    Level absolutely defines your character in BDO it is actually used to calculate "to hit", damage, mitigation and everything,  so level is one of the most important factors, followed by gear. 

    Try landing hits on a player 5 levels above you.....

    Please 
    So, if I have a combat level 50 with everything else being at level 1, can I ride a horse ?

    More appropriately, can you tame a horse?  Have you bred horses?  Have you built a boat?  Have you gone wailing?  How much trading have you done?  How many farms have you built?  How much crafting have you done?  We can go on and on ...

    If all you've done in BDO is rush to top level and engaged in combat, you've accomplished very little of what BDO has to offer.  There is much more to BDO than its combat level.  
    hmmm, well I don't really think that's important to all players.

    The thing I like about Black Desert is that it seems I don't have to tame a horse or build a boat. And for me that's fine.

    Of course it means that I am going to have to make up for money shortfalls by grinding but that's ok by me.

    I like a game that offers things and that players can pick and choose. 
  • CryolitycalCryolitycal Member UncommonPosts: 205
    "carving a path in a huge and varied world, making a name for yourself as a baker, a fisherman, a blacksmith, a warrior, a pirate, or a scoundrel."
    LOL.

    I slay dragons, with 19 other people, and am damn good at it. I do theorycrafting. I am using simulators to optimize my DPS. I am playing multiple classes to the best of their potential in the most challenging multiplayer PvE yet in MMOs.

    And you'd want me to give up on this to become... a BAKER?

    Gotta lol again.

    No thank you.
  • davchadavcha Member UncommonPosts: 130
    edited March 2016
    "carving a path in a huge and varied world, making a name for yourself as a baker, a fisherman, a blacksmith, a warrior, a pirate, or a scoundrel."
    LOL.

    I slay dragons, with 19 other people, and am damn good at it. I do theorycrafting. I am using simulators to optimize my DPS. I am playing multiple classes to the best of their potential in the most challenging multiplayer PvE yet in MMOs.

    And you'd want me to give up on this to become... a BAKER?

    Gotta lol again.

    No thank you.
    You never played SWG, have you ?
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    "carving a path in a huge and varied world, making a name for yourself as a baker, a fisherman, a blacksmith, a warrior, a pirate, or a scoundrel."
    LOL.

    I slay dragons, with 19 other people, and am damn good at it. I do theorycrafting. I am using simulators to optimize my DPS. I am playing multiple classes to the best of their potential in the most challenging multiplayer PvE yet in MMOs.

    And you'd want me to give up on this to become... a BAKER?

    Gotta lol again.

    No thank you.
    Thankfully, not everyone in the world wants to be a theorycrafting, min-maxing, huper-efficient dragon slayer !

    The world would be such a dreary place without bread... :D 
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,568
    So what are the raids like? ;)
    ....
  • davchadavcha Member UncommonPosts: 130
    YashaX said:
    So what are the raids like? ;)
    How are the breeding, housing and alternative activities in your theme park ?
  • davchadavcha Member UncommonPosts: 130
    This thread is just incredibly stupid, or am I missing something ?

    Now, it looks like bodybuilders trying to say that chess is dull, because you don't even lift...
  • shalissarshalissar Member UncommonPosts: 509
    DMKano said:



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.

    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol


    Little known fact - an aggressive cash shop can bring in HIGHER income with a fraction of the players than a tame cash shop with 3x the players.

    Sadly I can't share any details as it's not for public eyes, but there is a western MMO that made more money even with 40% less playerbase after redoing their cash shop.

    It's about getting paying players to spend as much as possible. Monetize the whales 
    is it archeage? it's archeage, isn't it :)
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,580
    What's end game like is one question I never ask
  • johnny12343johnny12343 Member UncommonPosts: 19
    Jesus Christ you are all so wrong. I like the review. But you people are speaking with out knowing or understanding. There is endgame there is goals. I'm level 52 in one of top ranked guilds in game. First if you've hit 50 your next goal is similar to destiny in that of leveling up your gear. You want to max out everything including accessories. This is not an easy task and will take you on many adventures. Next you should be in a guild and you should be doing your daily guild and daily black spirit quest, this is how you'll get your boss scrolls to do scroll runs to get massive loot. Very similar to dungeon and raid runs imo. So now you've all maxed out what do you do now? Well once the siege guild pvp content gets released in the next few weeks you are going to spend a massive amount of time pvping and build a large or small empire for your guild making tons of money for yourself and your guild mates. If all of this doesn't fulfill your needs there are already two huge expansions( so to say) on the way and should be out before the year is up and many many more to follow. This game is massive and truly remarkable once you start to understand it but please trust me when I say that you just probably haven't fully grasped it yet. If you haven't at least played to lvl 40 then give it another shot. First week I played I hated it. Almost quit all together. The next week I played and started understanding it, I feel in love and now I've barely got any sleep all month. This is the next SWG the next UO. Quit getting behind and start experiencing it.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,260
    "carving a path in a huge and varied world, making a name for yourself as a baker, a fisherman, a blacksmith, a warrior, a pirate, or a scoundrel."
    LOL.

    I slay dragons, with 19 other people, and am damn good at it. I do theorycrafting. I am using simulators to optimize my DPS. I am playing multiple classes to the best of their potential in the most challenging multiplayer PvE yet in MMOs.

    And you'd want me to give up on this to become... a BAKER?

    Gotta lol again.

    No thank you.
    Agreed lol. I can (and DO) bake regularly in real life and have the benefit of actually eating my creations. Then I sit down at the computer and kick some PvE or PvP ass. I happen to like my themepark content. /shrug
  • TruXurTTruXurT Member UncommonPosts: 18
    DMKano said:
    TruXurT said:


    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.



    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"




    Well I saw people that reached lvl 50 within first few days of the game launch. This is not that hard to do if that's what you want to focus on. But by doing it so fast, you skip a lot of content and game systems. So yes, people at lvl 25 enjoy the game more, because they do more than just grinding themselves to a higher level. Bottom line is that the combat level (or as I call it a fishing level as to my dismay fishing does increase that level), does not define your character in the game. I think what does really is your contribution points. At this point with 4 characters (highest at combat/fishing lvl 25) I already accumulated 90 contribution points. Looking forward to doubling that.

    Enjoy the game. Do not worry about the level. That's what makes it special.


    You can gain contribution points about 4x faster as a level 50 going back and running those mindless quests than a level 25.

    I hit 50 in about 26 hours taking my time and have 102 contribution points but then again I played this game in KR so in know my way around.

    My fishing is at zero too heh.

    Level absolutely defines your character in BDO it is actually used to calculate "to hit", damage, mitigation and everything,  so level is one of the most important factors, followed by gear. 

    Try landing hits on a player 5 levels above you.....

    Please 


    You see at lvl 25 I do not need to worry about hitting any player, lower or higher level.

    But you are missing my point. What makes this game great that are multiple ways to enjoy it. For some of us, it is to be a top ranked PvPer. For others is to finally build an item they wanted, be it a boat, armor jewelry, you name it. 

    My current focus is on breeding some awesome horses and I am having blast doing that.

    As long as people enjoy it, that's what matters. I don't think there is only one right way to play this game. 


  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,764
    ... This model is flawed, period and it won't be long before I see many of you back out here next year looking for something else.
    What if the model isn't flawed at all ? What if it's the best it will ever be ?

    No entertainment medium has ever come up with an everlasting formula. The closest thing we have to MMO's in other media is the TV series. A few of those have had remarkable runs of seven seasons or so, but the vast majority go 2 or 3 seasons, then the writers either run out of ideas or the public simply gets bored.

    Expecting an MMO to come up with an endless stream of original, exciting content and/or systems is simply a pipe dream.

    The idea that "the fun must never end" is about as realistic as human immortality...
    Well, one way to virutally guarantee people won't stick around is to not have any endgame...

    Going back to your TV analogy, it's like a TV series making 1 episode and expecting people to just watch it over and over.  Not going to happen.

    MMOs have proven they can retain players for extraordinary amounts of time.  It's worth trying to do that because it's good for players and for making money.

    Just saying, "Ah F it, people won't stick around anyway, let's try to get them to buy the box, $30 outfits, and spend a $100 trying to get a good pet" isn't the way I would go about making an MMO.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,428

    Well, one way to virutally guarantee people won't stick around is to not have any endgame...


    Any game with an "end game" will likely make me "not" stick around.

    Including a variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood is probably the better idea.

    One of the reason I still play Skyrim regularly. And even though I finished Dragon's Dogma I still go back to Bitter Black Isle for dungeon running and epic battles.
  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,847
    edited March 2016
    I'd argue there's no "game" at all. It plays more like a job.

    Currently playing: Destiny 2, Apex Legends, GTA Online and MTG: Arena

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, BDO, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, EVE, EQ1, EQ2, ESO, Fallen Earth, FFXI, FFXIV, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MxO, Neverwinter, Rift, RoE, Ryzom, Shadowbane, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...and a bunch of others not worth mentioning.

    Joined - July 2004

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    The End Game complaint started when progression became insanely easy and fast.. This was around the same time as other type of gamers gave MMORPGs a try and they didnt like or understand why it took time to progress. They wanted to be at the " cap " ASAP for whatever reason. Then the cry about having nothing to do began.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,019
    I just can't bring myself to play through the game because of the focus on OW PvP and the terribad PvE content. Like I could learn to enjoy an OW PvP game with a combat system like this....but if I have to slog through an easy-mode basically pointless 1-50 tutorial....I don't want to bother.
    For that, crowfall is basically making a better version of this game (systemically, who knows how it will be overall once released).
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,764
    edited March 2016
    Sovrath said:

    Well, one way to virutally guarantee people won't stick around is to not have any endgame...


    Any game with an "end game" will likely make me "not" stick around.

    Including a variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood is probably the better idea.

    One of the reason I still play Skyrim regularly. And even though I finished Dragon's Dogma I still go back to Bitter Black Isle for dungeon running and epic battles.
    "A variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood" IS usually the endgame in most MMOs.  That's the idea, anyway, and it is for me in BnS.

    With Black Desert, they are all non-combat-oriented and they stuck them in the beginning/middle of the game instead of the end.

    That's all well and good but what happens when you finish with them or get bored with them?  In traditional MMOs, they release an expansion or raise the level cap.

    I don't think there are any plans to expand on all the things people are enjoying in the future, beyond giving you more nodes to connect and more fishing spots.

    There are plans to put out an open world dungeon and a boss in the desert, and the seiges and node wars are coming, but most people really enjoying the game don't seem like they'll be very interested in those things.

    I totally get why people are having fun right now and they're not at level cap in the game.  It's been out for 2 weeks and there seems like an endless amount of non-combat stuff to occupy yourself with.  In most MMOs, the first 2 weeks is about slogging through quest-hubs to get to level cap.

    I'm just very skeptical it's going to remain that way for too long.
  • chocolate-mousechocolate-mouse Member UncommonPosts: 73
    edited March 2016
    Very much agree with your article Bill as well as the thread on the forums which you mentioned. I really wanted to hate the game based on its similiarity Archeage and that I thought I would have to use the cash shop just to enjoy the game. That is not the case as of yet. Unless game devs throws us a curve ball in some later patch, this game is completely playable without heavily investing in the cash shop. Cosmetic armor is expensive but you aren't paying a sub and it is a one time buy for a character. Pets are reasonably priced and again I can justify (for myself) buying them. This may sound silly but the most value I have spent for my money was the appearance change ticket. I spent 1000 pearls and I am able to use it for an entire month on all my characters on a server. Those of you who are constantly unhappy with some choices in character creation (like myself) will find that purchase....awesome!

    I was very worried that energy was going to be sold in the cash shop (in a previous post I said contribution points. I meant energy) and that my game play would be restricted like it was in AA by labor points. This is completely not the case. There are some things that I wish were different. Like not having classes gender locked. Unless the devs sell us all out, I have to say that is THE game I have been looking for. Much to my amazement. Now I need to upgrade my graphics card so I can enjoy all those settings on max.
  • pingopingo Member UncommonPosts: 608
    "A variety of tasks that are enjoyable where a player can pick and choose depending on his/her mood" IS usually the endgame in most MMOs.  That's the idea, anyway, and it is for me in BnS.

    With Black Desert, they are all non-combat-oriented and they stuck them in the beginning/middle of the game instead of the end.

    That's all well and good but what happens when you finish with them or get bored with them?  In traditional MMOs, they release an expansion or raise the level cap.

    I don't think there are any plans to expand on all the things people are enjoying in the future, beyond giving you more nodes to connect and more fishing spots.

    There are plans to put out an open world dungeon and a boss in the desert, and the seiges and node wars are coming, but most people really enjoying the game don't seem like they'll be very interested in those things.

    I totally get why people are having fun right now and they're not at level cap in the game.  It's been out for 2 weeks and there seems like an endless amount of non-combat stuff to occupy yourself with.  In most MMOs, the first 2 weeks is about slogging through quest-hubs to get to level cap.

    I'm just very skeptical it's going to remain that way for too long.
    This is incorrect. Your notions about what most people are doing in the game are not such. crafters don't exist in a vacuum in BDO. You can be combat focused and still engage in crafting. you can keep crafting to a minimum, or just buy nodes and ham resources to sell to fund gear. 


    There are so many people who hate the garbage wow-dailies end game. if nothing else, in a game like BDO due to the nature of not having fast travel, to the nature of weight and, to the nature of world pvp, xp loss on death. All these things change the dynamics, that the world itself doesn't just allow you to go out and do x daily. every time you leave a town you're potentially dead. so grinding is risky. going out alone is risky. 
    maintaining durability, taking care of your workers and so on are legit concerns.
    And there are plans to expand on these things. two days ago they put in a new pet breeding system, for example. 


    your second last paragraphs... There is no level cap. there is no end to it. many people are not rushing though the game due to this reason. it's understood inside the game that if you try to get to max its like trying to induce burnout on yourself. it doesn't matter.

    you are going to get wrecked by people who play more than you. thats the unfair nature of the sandbox elements that are in this game. its nor equalized gear or standardization. so there is no end game. That's what you need to understand. You can't apply themepark MMO logic on it. 
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,576
    edited March 2016
    TruXurT said:


    You see at lvl 25 I do not need to worry about hitting any player, lower or higher level.

    But you are missing my point. What makes this game great that are multiple ways to enjoy it. For some of us, it is to be a top ranked PvPer. For others is to finally build an item they wanted, be it a boat, armor jewelry, you name it. 

    My current focus is on breeding some awesome horses and I am having blast doing that.

    As long as people enjoy it, that's what matters. I don't think there is only one right way to play this game. 


    You aren't going to be level 25 in a couple months unless you do nothing but horse breeding, but I highly doubt you're going to enjoy breeding for more than a couple months either.  It's not in-depth enough to provide entertainment that will last more than a few months for most human beings.  Do you HONESTLY believe you'll still enjoy doing that same breeding thing in a couple months?  So far there doesn't seem to be any signs of significant game updates to it coming up so what you're doing today is the exact same thing you'll be doing a month from now, if even that.

    Sure, right now "Clicking and Spreadsheets: The Game" is fun because the game's only two weeks old.  But sooner or later (and all signs point to sooner.  YOU are already halfway there to level 45 and it's only been two weeks!) you'll be finished with that and you're either going to have to move on to the level 45+ places in order to have something NEW to do, or you're going to have to move on from the game.
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