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The Lack of Endgame is Not a Problem That Needs Solving

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  • ZarriyaZarriya Member UncommonPosts: 446
    good write up bill.
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016

    If I had to guess, it's probably the fact that all the high level zones, be you a PvE player or a PvP player, are PvP enabled?

    Well, that and there isn't that much PvE content, including what the dev team plans to release.  The thing about PvE content is it tends to get consummed and run out even for those who take their time eventually, and BDO's PvE content gets consummed faster than most other MMOs.

    Of course it looks like there's a decent amount for PvEers NOW when the game is only two weeks old and when the developers have a whole bunch of backlog content yet to release for this version, but that backlog content won't last THAT long.

    Again, you have no idea of what you speak.  There is an overwhelming amount of content that is PvE related when compared to the PvP content in BDO.  The only difference being that the PvP content in BDO is only existent at the highest levels.  That doesn't make it "end game' content.  All that makes it is content that is only available at the highest levels. Whereas the PvE content is available from level one to the highest levels.  

    Regarding the PvE content being consumed, that is the difference between BDO and the rest of the previous MMORPGs on the market.  BDO's PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs.  There is no content like dungeons or raids to out level.  The PvE content in BDO is just as significant and viable at level 50, as it is at level one.  There are dailies to do, farms to build and expand, cargo transport empires to lord over, horse breeding conglomerates, boating, whaling, etc ad infinitum ...  I mean, there are even fishing guilds being formed.  

    Some of you need to open up your minds and show some creativity and imagination.  If you were to do that you would see that the PvE activities are endless and far exceed any PvP that can be had in BDO.  That said, that is provided we all had a bit of creativity and imagination.  The lack of those in players in and themsevles, probably explains it all in a nutshell.  
    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What if your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327

    Again, you have no idea of what you speak.  There is an overwhelming amount of content that is PvE related when compared to the PvP content in BDO.  The only difference being that the PvP content in BDO is only existent at the highest levels.  That doesn't make it "end game' content.  All that makes it is content that is only available at the highest levels. Whereas the PvE content is available from level one to the highest levels.  

    Regarding the PvE content being consumed, that is the difference between BDO and the rest of the previous MMORPGs on the market.  BDO's PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs.  There is no content like dungeons or raids to out level.  The PvE content in BDO is just as significant and viable at level 50, as it is at level one.  There are dailies to do, farms to build and expand, cargo transport empires to lord over, horse breeding conglomerates, boating, whaling, etc ad infinitum ...  I mean, there are even fishing guilds being formed.  

    Some of you need to open up your minds and show some creativity and imagination.  If you were to do that you would see that the PvE activities are endless and far exceed any PvP that can be had in BDO.  That said, that is provided we all had a bit of creativity and imagination.  The lack of those in players in and themsevles, probably explains it all in a nutshell.  
    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.

    What if you get tired of doing node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player?

    What if ...
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016

    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.

    What if you get tired of doing node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player?

    What if ...
    Well, if the Korean and Russian versions are any indication, the players who enjoy node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player get tired of that sort of thing a lot more slowly than the players who enjoyed farming and horse breeding.

    PvP activities tend to last longer than Clicking: The Game, because they tend to be more varied due to the nature of fighting a human opponent.  The warrior you PvP today might have a completely different playstyle than the 5 wizards that jumped on you tomorrow.  The same can't be said for the 500th time you clicked your sunflower seed plot.

    Uhwop said:
    Guys, there is end game PvE content in BDO.  They're called World/ field bosses, and they aren't even all in game at the moment.  

    Guilds also have summoning scrolls they can use.  

    There is no instanced end game content.  

    The desert, which we should get "very soon", has a massive dragon in it for guilds to fight.  

    Quit saying that there is no end game content in BDO, that is wrong.  There is no "safe pvp free" end game content. 


    When the PvE end game requires you to PvP, it becomes more a matter of PvP than PvE because players tend to become harder opponents than nearly any PvE encounter.

    In the early days of a game's life, the opposite is true of course (this is a running theme here if you haven't figured that out already), but players get stronger and learn the ropes of fighting monsters while monsters... don't.  So eventually, whenever you head out to fight a noninstanced PvE boss, it's the enemy players who are the bigger threat, and thus the focus becomes more on "How do I beat these players so I can kill this boss?" rather than "How do I kill this boss?".  Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.


  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327



     Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.



    ... and soon after the PvEers leave ... the game dies.
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016



     Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.



    ... and soon after the PvEers leave ... the game dies.
    Indeed.  That's the issue that the other versions of BDO appear to be facing nowadays.

    Although sometimes MMOs can survive on surprisingly small niche playerbases.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    edited March 2016
    Tokken said:
    It seems like I hear this alot. Mostl new games that come out have no good endgame.... and end up suffering or failing.  Seriously, What games out there have a good endgame?
    BnS has a great endgame imo.  I've been playing it for over a month now and still not bored.  It's not the quasi-orgasmic feeling some people seem to have about playing BDO, but it's fun and satisfies my MMO itch quite well.

    PVP (1v1 and 3v3 tag matches, both of which are unparalleled in MMOs), a bunch of dungeons with optional difficulties, a bunch of quests in faction contested areas meaning goofy owpvp will happen, a solo-challenge tower of increasing difficulty as you go up, and a whole bunch of open-world boss dailies.  It's enough variety to keep me entertained.

    They just added a bunch of stuff.  I'm not sure there's time in a regular person's wake-cycle to do everything now with the new stuff.

    I just pick whatever I'm in the mood for and play for a few hours or more.
  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    edited March 2016

    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.

    What if you get tired of doing node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player?

    What if ...
    Well, if the Korean and Russian versions are any indication, the players who enjoy node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player get tired of that sort of thing a lot more slowly than the players who enjoyed farming and horse breeding.

    PvP activities tend to last longer than Clicking: The Game, because they tend to be more varied due to the nature of fighting a human opponent.  The warrior you PvP today might have a completely different playstyle than the 5 wizards that jumped on you tomorrow.  The same can't be said for the 500th time you clicked your sunflower seed plot.

    Uhwop said:
    Guys, there is end game PvE content in BDO.  They're called World/ field bosses, and they aren't even all in game at the moment.  

    Guilds also have summoning scrolls they can use.  

    There is no instanced end game content.  

    The desert, which we should get "very soon", has a massive dragon in it for guilds to fight.  

    Quit saying that there is no end game content in BDO, that is wrong.  There is no "safe pvp free" end game content. 


    When the PvE end game requires you to PvP, it becomes more a matter of PvP than PvE because players tend to become harder opponents than nearly any PvE encounter.

    In the early days of a game's life, the opposite is true of course (this is a running theme here if you haven't figured that out already), but players get stronger and learn the ropes of fighting monsters while monsters... don't.  So eventually, whenever you head out to fight a noninstanced PvE boss, it's the enemy players who are the bigger threat, and thus the focus becomes more on "How do I beat these players so I can kill this boss?" rather than "How do I kill this boss?".  Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.



    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 


    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    Uhwop said:

    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.

    What if you get tired of doing node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player?

    What if ...
    Well, if the Korean and Russian versions are any indication, the players who enjoy node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player get tired of that sort of thing a lot more slowly than the players who enjoyed farming and horse breeding.

    PvP activities tend to last longer than Clicking: The Game, because they tend to be more varied due to the nature of fighting a human opponent.  The warrior you PvP today might have a completely different playstyle than the 5 wizards that jumped on you tomorrow.  The same can't be said for the 500th time you clicked your sunflower seed plot.

    Uhwop said:
    Guys, there is end game PvE content in BDO.  They're called World/ field bosses, and they aren't even all in game at the moment.  

    Guilds also have summoning scrolls they can use.  

    There is no instanced end game content.  

    The desert, which we should get "very soon", has a massive dragon in it for guilds to fight.  

    Quit saying that there is no end game content in BDO, that is wrong.  There is no "safe pvp free" end game content. 


    When the PvE end game requires you to PvP, it becomes more a matter of PvP than PvE because players tend to become harder opponents than nearly any PvE encounter.

    In the early days of a game's life, the opposite is true of course (this is a running theme here if you haven't figured that out already), but players get stronger and learn the ropes of fighting monsters while monsters... don't.  So eventually, whenever you head out to fight a noninstanced PvE boss, it's the enemy players who are the bigger threat, and thus the focus becomes more on "How do I beat these players so I can kill this boss?" rather than "How do I kill this boss?".  Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.



    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 


    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 

    Dude, he's on your side lol
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016
    Uhwop said:


    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 

    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 
    Oh, there is an end game.  However, the major issue is that the end game is not what Bill or many others in this thread thinks it is.  It is, indeed, exactly as you prescribed, and eventually everyone is going to find out just what exactly a "open world GvG sandbox game" is, and I doubt they're going to like it either. 
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,227
    Uhwop said:


    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 

    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 
    Oh, there is an end game.  However, the major issue is that the end game is not what Bill or many others in this thread thinks it is.  It is, indeed, exactly as you prescribed, and eventually everyone is going to find out just what exactly a "open world GvG sandbox game" is, and I doubt they're going to like it either. 


    BDO PvP is heavily level and gear dependant. 

    A level 60 in +20 gear is damn near unkillable by a Lvl 55 in +15 gear.

    That won't sit well with many

  • UhwopUhwop Member UncommonPosts: 1,791
    edited March 2016
    Uhwop said:

    Your entire argument hinges on your "PvE content doesn't phase out like the rest of those MMORPGs" statement.  That's the only thing that would lead to long term value of all those activities you listed.  But what if you're wrong?  What if it DOES phase out, despite you believing it doesn't?  What your farm reaches full size, and you are still growing the same crops a few months from now as you're growing a couple weeks from now?  What if horses have glutted the market and no longer make any decent profit?  What if you're sick of doing the same dailies over and over again?  What if you're finished exploring the world and connecting all your nodes?  What if all of this doesn't last as long as you think it does, and actually does end sooner than you'd like?

    And from what I hear from Korean BDO, that's what ended up happening for many people.  Of course, it might look that way now when the game is only two weeks old, but will all those activities you listed REALLY last that long, even to some one who isn't powergaming?  As we are talking about the future, I can't say for sure, but at least what I've heard about the Korean verson implies that's not the case.

    What if you get tired of doing node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player?

    What if ...
    Well, if the Korean and Russian versions are any indication, the players who enjoy node wars, castle sieges, and ganking the odd end player get tired of that sort of thing a lot more slowly than the players who enjoyed farming and horse breeding.

    PvP activities tend to last longer than Clicking: The Game, because they tend to be more varied due to the nature of fighting a human opponent.  The warrior you PvP today might have a completely different playstyle than the 5 wizards that jumped on you tomorrow.  The same can't be said for the 500th time you clicked your sunflower seed plot.

    Uhwop said:
    Guys, there is end game PvE content in BDO.  They're called World/ field bosses, and they aren't even all in game at the moment.  

    Guilds also have summoning scrolls they can use.  

    There is no instanced end game content.  

    The desert, which we should get "very soon", has a massive dragon in it for guilds to fight.  

    Quit saying that there is no end game content in BDO, that is wrong.  There is no "safe pvp free" end game content. 


    When the PvE end game requires you to PvP, it becomes more a matter of PvP than PvE because players tend to become harder opponents than nearly any PvE encounter.

    In the early days of a game's life, the opposite is true of course (this is a running theme here if you haven't figured that out already), but players get stronger and learn the ropes of fighting monsters while monsters... don't.  So eventually, whenever you head out to fight a noninstanced PvE boss, it's the enemy players who are the bigger threat, and thus the focus becomes more on "How do I beat these players so I can kill this boss?" rather than "How do I kill this boss?".  Hence end game is more PvP than PvE, and PvEers who don't like PvP leave.



    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 


    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 

    Dude, he's on your side lol

    yeah.  I'm exhausted and in a lot of pain.  Reading multiple threads at once that boil down to people saying the exact same thing. 

    The last bit isn't directed at him. 

    It's also frustrating that "no end game" is a complaint I've been seeing, and there is end game.  It's just not instanced. 


    Please quit saying BDO has no end game, that is factually untrue. 

  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    DMKano said:
    Uhwop said:


    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 

    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 
    Oh, there is an end game.  However, the major issue is that the end game is not what Bill or many others in this thread thinks it is.  It is, indeed, exactly as you prescribed, and eventually everyone is going to find out just what exactly a "open world GvG sandbox game" is, and I doubt they're going to like it either. 


    BDO PvP is heavily level and gear dependant. 

    A level 60 in +20 gear is damn near unkillable by a Lvl 55 in +15 gear.

    That won't sit well with many


    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,227
    DMKano said:
    Uhwop said:


    That has absolutely nothing to do with what Bill was saying in his article or my trying to point out to people who keep saying there is no end game in BDO. 

    There is end game, there is PvE end game content, and PvP end game content.  Just because a world boss raid happens in the open world, were other can stop you from farming (because it is one of the ways that guilds are going to get stronger so they can do sieges, and so it's very important and should be competitive) doesn't make it not PvE end game. 

    There is end game, there is end game still not released yet. 

    I'm sorry you don't like PvP, thankfully it's a big part of the game.  If it's a problem for you, don't play GvG pvp games; there are other games for you to play, this one was made for people who wanted an open world GvG, sandbox game. 
    Oh, there is an end game.  However, the major issue is that the end game is not what Bill or many others in this thread thinks it is.  It is, indeed, exactly as you prescribed, and eventually everyone is going to find out just what exactly a "open world GvG sandbox game" is, and I doubt they're going to like it either. 


    BDO PvP is heavily level and gear dependant. 

    A level 60 in +20 gear is damn near unkillable by a Lvl 55 in +15 gear.

    That won't sit well with many


    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.

    Again it's an open world PvP game, by nature open world PvP is about the strong preying on the weak.

    It's the nature of the game and the playerbase it attracts.

    Daum might enforce harsher karma penalties like they have in KR,  but they lost a TON of players in RU and haven't done dick there.
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.

    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    edited March 2016



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.

    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol
    A business exists for profit, not for a large player base. 

    Proof:  A presentation by a business company that makes millions a month:

    http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An

    As shown in their "Pros and cons" section, they don't give a crap about low player base if they can get a faster money turn around.

    What could give Daum a fast money turn around in BDO?  

    Start off with Buy-to-Play so that all the PvE players give you their money.

    Eventually all the PvE players leave because BDO is a PvP-centric game, not a PvE game.

    Switch to F2P, switch cash shop to Pay-to-win, watch all those PvP players pay you thousands each so they can win.

    Ta da.  Big profits, no big player base needed.  Those PvE players probably weren't going to give Daum thousands anyways.   And it saves Daum the hassle and costs of having to completely re-design a game that was designed for PvP (a re-design which probably wouldn't have worked anyways.  Re-designing a game to change it from the very foundations it started on rarely goes well)
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,227
    edited March 2016



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.

    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol


    Little known fact - an aggressive cash shop can bring in HIGHER income with a fraction of the players than a tame cash shop with 3x the players.

    Sadly I can't share any details as it's not for public eyes, but there is a western MMO that made more money even with 40% less playerbase after redoing their cash shop.

    It's about getting paying players to spend as much as possible. Monetize the whales 
  • TiamatRoarTiamatRoar Member RarePosts: 1,459
    DMKano said:



    You're only telling part of the story.  What about the majority of the population sitting at 45 to 50 with+7 gear? There aren't that many prime grind spots in BDO.  All hell is going to break loose when the few are overlording over the many, not allowing them to gear up and be able to compete?  Talk about empty servers.  That's an understatement.  Daum ain't that stupid.
    There's always the possibility that Daum really isn't that stupid, but not in the way you think they aren't.  I wouldn't be too surprised if Daum made the game Buy-to-Play (IE, get all the money from all the PvEers before they realize what they're getting into) knowing fully well what BDO really is.

    As for the remaining small niche player base after all the PvEers leave, well, that's what switching to F2P, P2W, and then milking those hardcore competitive PvPers for all they're worth is for!

    If that is Daum's intention, that's not stupid at all.  In fact, it's very intelligent and shrewd.

    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol


    Little known fact - an aggressive cash shop can bring in HIGHER income with a fraction of the players than a tame cash shop with 3x the players.

    Sadly I can't share any details as it's not for public eyes, but there is a western MMO that made more money even with 40% less playerbase after redoing their cash shop.

    It's about getting paying players to spend as much as possible. Monetize the whales 
    It really shouldn't be a little known fact since many businesses have gone flat out and stated it directly, but many people just refuse to believe it, alas.  It's such an open secret that R2Games will publish a big presentation on the matter saying "Less players, but more money!!!" to their investors and have that presentation be PUBLIC and not care or worry about the back lash (probably cause anyone who'd complain about it probably wasn't going to give them that much money anyways compared to the whales).
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited March 2016
    DMKano said:


    I don't even think you believe what you're saying.  There isn't very much I can say if you consider losing the majority of their player base very intelligent and shrewd decision making.  You do realize they're trying to run a business here, no?  lol


    Little known fact - an aggressive cash shop can bring in HIGHER income with a fraction of the players than a tame cash shop with 3x the players.

    Sadly I can't share any details as it's not for public eyes, but there is a western MMO that made more money even with 40% less playerbase after redoing their cash shop.

    It's about getting paying players to spend as much as possible. Monetize the whales 

    A greater known fact - an aggressive cash will bring an even HIGHER income with a larger population of players than with a fraction of that population, than a tame cash shop would bring irregardless of the population numbers in any game.  
  • rumtumtumrumtumtum Member UncommonPosts: 7
    i like this game at the moment i have 3 toons and none are max level. I like the fact i can log in for an hour do a few quests level up a bit then log out within an hour feeling like ive achieved something.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    There was EVE used is an example but it rather serve as a good example what BDO isn't, rather than what it is.


    There is plethora of PVE content in EVE - you can run missions, Acrc, ratting, incursions, wormholes, exploration, run DEDs, etc.

    The fundatmental diference is that PVE isn't implemented just as an opportunity to PVP, nor to keep you competitve at PVP.

    PVE in EVE is fully developed and supported playstyle unlike the very little PVE there is in BDO - mob grinding and a handful of summons, that only serve as a mean to PVP.


    End-game = the content at the far end of the progression curve.

    EVE does not have a progression. Ships you are able to fly are not getting "better", they are just different. Thus it is no brainer there is definitely end-game in BDO - mob grinding, summons and PVP, you have to progress to access that content.


    Like I said before, it is just some people discovered crafting that fits them and spiral it into absurd proportions. It isn't the first time and likely won't be the last time either.



  • goemoegoemoe Member UncommonPosts: 220
    This is a typical praise type of article written by someone playing (and enjoying) a game only recently. Especially the "end game" discussion will pop up hard'n heavy once even the not so fast leveling people cease to find something to do. Go, play your praised BDO for two months more, and 'Murphys' Law wil hit you in the face, as long as your are not happy to merely PvP after that.

    Until that enjoy your game.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,910
    PVE-oriented games always outlast PVP-oriented ones.

    That's because of the nature of PVE players as opposed to PVP players.

    PVE players seek stability and predictability. They like "learning to beat a boss" and then "putting the boss on farm". PVE'ers will run the same set of dailies for years. If the game systems are changed too often or too drastically, PVE'ers will leave.

    PVP players thrive on adrenaline, unpredictability and... winning. If they don't win enough in game A, they move on in search of a new game where they can start over and maybe get the upper hand early. They insist on combat being "fair", then look for any possible way to make it unfair in their favor so that they can be guaranteed a win ! :D 

    PVP requires high player counts. As soon as the population starts dwindling, the majority of the players leave in short order to find the next hotbed of PVP action.

    PVE doesn't require high player counts. If you have a stable group, the rest of the player base could leave and it would have no effect on the quantity or quality of your PVE content.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited March 2016
    "End game content" is unnecessary.

    But the problem of "what can we do to keep capped players from growing bored and drifting away" doesn't just go away because you ignore it. PVP alone is an insufficient response. Raiding alone is, too.

    It was the prime bugaboo of MMO development for years, you can't blame it on WoW, and it remained the holy grail even after "end game content" was a thing.

    You cannot stop ennui. The best you can do is delaying tactics, slow it down as much as possible.

    It's unlikely to be solved within the birthing moments of a new MMO. In any case, you can't make a proclamation of this nature until the majority of the player base is sitting on the cap, has been for months, has been through several alts, and is wondering "ok, now what?"

    Publish this again in a year, and see how many still agree.

    Some portion of your players will remain content PVPing their brains out.

    Some portion of your players will already be gone.
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