Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The Lack of Endgame is Not a Problem That Needs Solving

2456

Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited March 2016
    crafting is only one portion of the game, there's ton of things never seen in other MMO's... that and not everyone is competitive, if you like to explore the world, quest or focus on one profession you can do that and that's where the game is good it.. doing these things is not a chore which can't be said for many other MMO's
    That is what I said...spiraling into absurd proportions.

    Just because you didn't run around "exploring" or engaged in crafting in other MMOs does not make BDO "not a chore" and "ton things to do"... you just happen to enjoy it in BDO.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Sovrath said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Sovrath said:

    SEANMCAD said:

    which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

    think on that given what you said.

    never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.



    uh, what a cynical way of looking at it. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who, once they get to "end game" in most games, stop. They don't want to raid for gear ad infinitum.

    Sorry I can't get on board with that take on it.






    I dont see how my analysis is cynical. Forgive me but I dont play these games so I am looking at it a bit as an outsider. If the majority of players in a game play the game to play endgame then it
    I don't really know that a majority do play to get to end game. I do agree with you in that there are definitely people who play for "end game" and who have actually made posts (on these forums) proposing that level 1 be the raid part.

    But there is a whole other group that doesn't play to raid and raid and raid. I suppose I found the cynical part to be the whole "take away the mid game might as well be removed" when to me and others that IS the best part of the game.

    of course I also enjoy pvp so for me everything that supports pvp is a positive.
    well that is fair enough so my view depends a great deal on the 'if' part...lol

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,240
    SEANMCAD said:




    never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.
    My take on this is remove endgame make the 40 hours you play first the game to enjoy.  There should be no endgame it should be something you strive to keep improving.  I see no reason to rush through content just to get to some treadmill to be the first to do something.  This is even worse in PVP games that have gear stats as a contributor, people rush through to get the best gear to be the best instead of having the best skills.
  • Einherjar25Einherjar25 Member UncommonPosts: 17




    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.



    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"


    I follow a crap-ton of people on YouTube who are all level 50 and still loving it. It entirely depends on how you view endgame and the journey there.

    Different people want different things out of their games.



    "THE JOURNEY THERE" to quote you. Yes! We live in a "fastfood" society and people underestimate the value of the journey itself. They want everything for yesterday. There is a saying that says:"The journey there is half the fun". Ain't that the truth?
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,050

    Yeah but eventually you have all the nodes connected.  You have all your craft stuff set up.  Then what?
    But that's like saying "eventually you will have flipped keeps numerous times, eventually you will have raided to get your max gear, eventually you will have pvp'ed over and over again."

    I think the idea of making money to support the pvp side is a very strong argument. And this of course is where the game has its "flaws" because once one  makes a lot of money what do they do with that money other than support pvp gear.

    The only answer is to wait and see what else the developers add.



  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016
    k61977 said:
    SEANMCAD said:




    never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.
    My take on this is remove endgame make the 40 hours you play first the game to enjoy.  There should be no endgame it should be something you strive to keep improving.  I see no reason to rush through content just to get to some treadmill to be the first to do something.  This is even worse in PVP games that have gear stats as a contributor, people rush through to get the best gear to be the best instead of having the best skills.
    personally I agree but I am just saying if the majority of players have a hard on for getting to end game as soon as possible maybe someone should make a game for those kinds of players where they dont have to worry about early and mid game.

    there is plenty of room for both styles of game play (well if the beancounters at the AAA companies could see it that way anyway)

    EDIT: to be clear I am talking about two different games either same game two different rule sets or maybe two completely differtent games. different players dont have to live in the same instance of a game just because that is what developers think is a good objective.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    Sovrath said:

    Yeah but eventually you have all the nodes connected.  You have all your craft stuff set up.  Then what?
    But that's like saying "eventually you will have flipped keeps numerous times, eventually you will have raided to get your max gear, eventually you will have pvp'ed over and over again."

    I think the idea of making money to support the pvp side is a very strong argument. And this of course is where the game has its "flaws" because once one  makes a lot of money what do they do with that money other than support pvp gear.

    The only answer is to wait and see what else the developers add.
    Right, that's my point though.  The article is saying that it doesn't matter that there's no PVE content or traditional "endgame" because the game feels endless to him.

    I don't think the game is endless.  I think there is an end to what you can do with crafting/nodes/trading etc.  Those systems are surely more extensive, interesting and elaborate than almost any other MMO, but there is a limit to them.

    Eventually it seems the whole game is meant to support/funnel you into node wars and seiges.  But those aren't in the game yet so it's hard to say how the "endgame" will play out for most people.
  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,977
    No interest in the game but still a great read.
  • josko9josko9 Member RarePosts: 577




    fed79 said:








    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.







    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"









    Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.






    I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.



    You know a lot of people would explain ESO that way too. ESO has been described so many times as a game about the journey, rather than a grind to the Endgame. That essentially means that even ESO's endgame begins at level 1.

    However there is a huge difference between them. ESO has at least a great voice acting and superb writing to lead you on your way to the "max" level. I suppose it also has way more content. But the biggest difference is that even ESO implemented the "typical" endgame, simply because it retains players. Without it, MMOs die. Simple as that.

    You can say that the whole game is endgame, but without actually great PvP, or great dungeons and Raids your game will surely die. And in BDO's case, endgame is very shallow and weak, either from a PvE or PvP perspective.

    I'd like to see you reach the level cap and praise BDO. You will quickly realize that there is no longetivity in this game. You can realistically achieve everything in a month, just as if you'd play a singleplayer game, except it's not even nearly as good as say The Witcher 3. There is a reason why the game is nearly dead in Korea and Russia.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    the logic in some of these replies is friggin exhausting

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • LigiLigi Member UncommonPosts: 118
    Nice article, completly agree. This is a very special game, with lots of layers, flavours and nuances. This is not a "fast food" kind of game, if you do yourself the favour of playing slowly and aknowledge most of its mechanics, you will fall in love for BDO.

    This will be my game for a long time.
  • TheHiveLeaderTheHiveLeader Video MaestroMember RarePosts: 234
    SEANMCAD said:
    the logic in some of these replies is friggin exhausting
    This is video games. Logic is not required. In fact, it's frowned upon.
  • SoarlozerSoarlozer Member UncommonPosts: 60
    Does this game lack character, gear, power progression?

    One of my fave MMOs was DF and it was considered a arena game and it even had a end game where you farmed, pvped, or did sieges (political pvp). Hell even random pvp could have political consequences.

    I consider end game as what most of the vets of the game are doing. I doubt they figured out what full sandboxes like UO and SWG couldn't.
  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 301
    good old bill confusing "end game" with content to do in your "never ending mmo". So yeah light weights like Bill will have the usual "new game shine" BDO offers for a good while because he really doesn't play all that much and his agenda is slightly different than an actual gamer when he does play, aka he plays to accomplish his work. So While bill thinks its cool to log in and find a picturesque place to park for a sunset screen shot the rest of us have already done it a few times and are bored, while he thinks it is cool to "milk the cow" k i milked the cow 250 times man it is tedious and boring, and bill will find balancing your wheel barrow a unique and fresh take on crafting, the rest of us who play the game and not try out stuffs find it a monotonous irritation.

    No Offense we all did that stuff most of us thought it was pretty interesting for the first few hours but then it hits you like a brick wall, "ok i played all the trivial minigames like fishing" but they are simply really awful boring mini games that only gave the illusion of being fun because of the new car shine factor, now there is nothing to do I am bored, I dont want to sit and press the space bar for another 20 hours to get some meaningless fish that i can then "process" into dry fish (the next minigame) so that i can then process it into "pet food". I actually want to play a real game, I don't want a real life simulator hell I don't even enjoy feeding my own pets in real life (that is why we call them chores) so why would i want to waste my time doing it in a virtual game? Oh ya because I am addicted to seeing little progress bars increase and level up.

    So BDO has some solid cores, but it is abysmal, lacking in real content you want from an RPG, goals, objectives, real character growth, exploration, adventure, treasure hunting. Instead all of those things were replaced with trivial monotonous meaningless minigames disguised as "crafting". Hey look man I got my gathering to rank profession7 and i am 13th on the leader board for hovering over a bush and pressing R! WHO NEEDS END GAME /cough I mean content.

    So in the end there is nothing to do in BDO the system will feel fresh for a while but non the less amazingly boring and tedious, it is just a matter of how much you play before the reality sinks in that you might as well be playing bejeweled instead of the mindless space bar tapping of "fishing" in BDO.

    If they ever have actual content worth playing the games core systems are great and fun aka combat and the beautiful though small and uneventful world.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited March 2016
    Soarlozer said:
    Does this game lack character, gear, power progression?

    One of my fave MMOs was DF and it was considered a arena game and it even had a end game where you farmed, pvped, or did sieges (political pvp). Hell even random pvp could have political consequences.

    I consider end game as what most of the vets of the game are doing. I doubt they figured out what full sandboxes like UO and SWG couldn't.
    the thing about DF as well as Wurm in my view is that the skill system is designed with the intention of taking nearly forever to ever 'end' even though it had a cap. The unfortunate thing about that is the pvp part of it makes everyone grid to cap regardless of if the cap is designed to take effectly years to get or not AND regardless of the fact that you dont even need a skill over 50 to be able to win in a combat if you are good

    same thing in Wurm

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 301










    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.





    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"




    I follow a crap-ton of people on YouTube who are all level 50 and still loving it. It entirely depends on how you view endgame and the journey there.

    Different people want different things out of their games.






    "THE JOURNEY THERE" to quote you. Yes! We live in a "fastfood" society and people underestimate the value of the journey itself. They want everything for yesterday. There is a saying that says:"The journey there is half the fun". Ain't that the truth?



    You are confusing "fastfood" with what is actually no food just packaging. This is the same thoughtless rhetoric I see over and over, people like you with your fabricated hate on the "power gamers" the content locusts who rush to end game and then complain there is nothing to do... the flaw in your logic is that THERE IS STILL NOTHING TO DO, and you will reach that point as well it just takes you longer as you roam around one night looking for a spot to take a screenshot in the perfect sunset, or you poke around picking weeds to complete a quest to see your CP meter move up a notch. you will soon get bored of those meaningless trivial tasks.

    So please save the journey speech it is empty and inaccurate. It is great that you think pressing a few buttons to make a boat is amazingly fun an entertaining, but you really don;t understand fun if that is the case, I suggest actually making a small boat in real life if that is your cup a tea, because really your playing some silly browser game repeating a few key presses to make your so called boat that is soo fun....aka you would have just as much fun playing any cheesy me too smart phone app game as well.
  • MadunqsMadunqs Member UncommonPosts: 8
    I just get confused as to what people are suppose to do at end game? Just grind? PK? Clan Verse Clan? And to note the Clan verse Clan is actually pretty boring. If you think GW2 had a problem with the zerging and only numbers winning in wvwvw. Then this game is that on steroids. There will be clans who grind 24/7 and will one shot the hell out of you and your clan period. Also i would like to point out that the only thing i see people having fun with on the official forums is fishing. PVP needs to be addressed bad in my opinion.
  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Member UncommonPosts: 759
    Good write up! I am enjoying the lack of "end game" in BDO. Way back in the day when GW2 launched and then with ESO my response to many looking for a solid "end game" was .... "Enjoy the ride!". Ever since the WoW revolution in MMOs (don't get me wrong I love WoW too) the mentality of gaming in an MMO shifted & the shift would not have been horrible except for the fact it shifted millions of gamers to a grind to "end game" or the game wouldn't be fun.

    I am glad that games like BDO are out and becoming popular. It may be a change in the seasons for MMO gamers and get some of us away from the "end game" mentality!


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Madunqs said:
    I just get confused as to what people are suppose to do at end game? Just grind? PK? Clan Verse Clan? And to note the Clan verse Clan is actually pretty boring. If you think GW2 had a problem with the zerging and only numbers winning in wvwvw. Then this game is that on steroids. There will be clans who grind 24/7 and will one shot the hell out of you and your clan period. Also i would like to point out that the only thing i see people having fun with on the official forums is fishing. PVP needs to be addressed bad in my opinion.
    about a decade ago 'end game' meant in general just that, the game was mostly coming to an end, still fun but time to move on.

    However, now that most of the customers of these products are of such high level to keep them playing the developers give them more content but they dont want to give them the same old forumla they have been giving them in the past so its a different kind of content and then players call it 'end game' but its more content then it used to me.

    does that make sense? not easy to explain

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • mmrvmmrv Member RarePosts: 301

    Leiloni said:





    fed79 said:








    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.







    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"









    Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.






    I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

    The game IS actually meant to play to 50 and grind (50 is not the softcap, 55 is, but you are supposed to rush to 50 and then do the rest). The level curve in KR is absurdly fast and easy in order to facilitate that as was the Korean design of leaving PvP until level 50. Western gamers asked that leveling be slowed down, as well as asking for other changes, but it was not the developer's intent for the game to work that way. You've heard the phrase that the 1-50 leveling was intended as a tutorial and that is the truth.

    The game is completely centered around Guild vs Guild PvP and Siege/Node war PvP, with all of the node, crafting, worker, trade, etc. systems built to support that and any endgame PvPer is near required to participate in many of those activities (especially those interested in seiging). So mix that with the necessary endgame grind for levels, skill points, and gear, and the massive imbalance of it all along with the need to no-life it to keep up with the endless progression. It's niche and a lot of people are going to be hit with reality once they get to that hardcore PvP endgame. The masses aren't going to enjoy that long-term. Sure there is a community that loves that, but it's a smaller community.

    But the sandboxy activities aren't meant to exist in a vacuum. This game wasn't mean for player to player trade and it doesn't need it. PvPers will want to craft items to help themselves gear up at endgame, they'll want cook and do alchemy for endgame buff consumables, they'll want to level up their workers for the necessary crafting required to prepare for sieges, they'll connect and level up nodes to improve drop rates at their favorite farming spots, they'll fish and farm and other activities to earn money to support the endgame progression, etc.

    Like most Korean games (and this differs from how Western devs design games), the developers expect the players to take part in all of the game's content and design the content to be interdependent and to benefit the players that partake in all of it. It's the same reason why guild quests exist, and why boss scrolls exist - these are both big group PvE activities, that are necessary daily activities for PvP guilds to partake in to gear up, and level up their guilds so they can partake in more GvGs.

    So BDO definitely has an endgame and it starts at 50+ when a variety of other endgame activities open up to you. The endgame is open world PvP via constant GvG wars, Castle sieges, and node sieges. Every single activity in BDO centers around supporting that endgame and players partaking in that endgame will need to participate in a lot of non-PvP activities in order to PvP. This is completely normal for any Korean game - Aion and TERA are two examples of Korean games that forced you to PvP, PvE, craft, and do other activities all at once to progress in any particular area of the game. BDO's PvP nature has been reinforced numerous times by the devs and their content updates with Valencia have also reinforced that nature (and they will continue to reinforce this with the Valencia Part 3 update that will include maritime PVP and more boats).

    I understand a lot of Western MMO writers (on this site and others) along with a few players, want to make this game out to be the casual do-as-you-please sandbox that they desperately want, but you can't force something to be what it's not. The fact remains blatantly clear to anyone that has played endgame or even researched it. BDO has a very clear and firm OwPVP endgame and all the game's systems are very well designed to support that - beginning after the 1-50 level tutorial of the game. It's grindy as hell and imbalanced, but that's the game's design.

    Play however you like, but these are the facts.



    Ya.... I would dispute your "facts" being that end game guild v guild node wars is an end game at all. Why? Because there are no goals or even points or motivation to engage in it, ohh man cool we captured thier node, uhm ok doesnt actually mean anything or progress our characters in anyway its like conquering that tree over therrre cool you know own a tree that literally noone else cares about beyond the fact they had to fight you to claim thier name on the tree hahah.. It is simply pvp for the sake of pvp with alot of tedious complicated red tape to endure to in the end play call of duty. RPG are about character development not "pvp" this has been one of the cancers destroying this genre, the psuedo pvp nerd demanding pvp in these mmorpg's because they can't handle real pvp games. So we have this crutch built in where you can mash out time to essentially create a superior stat machine to assure yourself victory and claim you are PVP king. Most times it isnt even pvp, it is simply turned into the most basic iteration of "PK" killing unsuspecting people who you know in advance have no chance to killing you, then thumping your chest claiming you owned some carebear, when the reality is anyone in "pvp aka pk mmorpg is actually the true carebears, you hide in MMO's where you can outtime and stat people instead of real pvp games where you have to outplay and win via skill. In the end the entire genre suffers as developers waste loads of time to develop pvp systems, hamstring balance and fun factors for the sake of PVP balance, and immense lapses of content because well "you got this pvp stuff instead".

    anyrate I digress. so while the intent of the developers might been for this grandiose guild v guild meaningless node wars, it still in no way shape or form can be described as "end game" content for a MMORPG.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,050
    edited March 2016
    mmrv said:



    Ya.... I would dispute your "facts" being that end game guild v guild node wars is an end game at all. Why? Because there are no goals or even points or motivation to engage in it, ohh man cool we captured thier node, uhm ok doesnt actually mean anything or progress our characters in anyway its like conquering that tree over therrre cool you know own a tree that literally noone else cares about beyond the fact they had to fight you to claim thier name on the tree hahah.. It is simply pvp for the sake of pvp with alot of tedious complicated red tape to endure to in the end play call of duty. 
    Except that you get tax money for your guild which the guild needs.

    It's like any mmo where you take land. Except, by your comments it seems like you aren't interested in pvp so this might not be your type of game.

    Also role playing games aren't just about developing your characters as the whole idea of developing your character is "to do things".

    edited for possible snarkiness.
    Post edited by Sovrath on



  • knightsbayneknightsbayne Member UncommonPosts: 19
    This is an intelligent article, and "end game" content isn't a concept that has been properly analyzed without the mindset that it should be consumed. You're right in that theme parks must create more end game in a never ending cycle because, eventually, it is consumed and then discarded like a one time use only item within the very same game. I'd be interested in hearing your take on what kind of game creates or allows for content to be created that could be considered successful.

    This might boil down to a debate about the semantics of "end game," but what is good content that would be considered beyond consumption like grinding endgame raids, etc. What constitutes end game? Can it only be player created content that keeps players interested beyond what the game's own content offers? What is it about raids and dungeons at the end of the game that keeps players interested? What are the alternatives to raids and dungeons?

    These are questions that I'm sure many developers consider already, and I think questions somewhere along these lines are pivotal in building a sustainable player base for the long term. But right now, a lot of MMOs rely on the format of consumable content, expansion after expansion of new ever increasing tiers of levels and gear. It's obviously a viable concept proven by the success of WoW, but is it for the best? Or better yet, how can MMORPGs do better?
  • BruhzaBruhza Member UncommonPosts: 391

    fed79 said:

    Black desert is well made but I feel the company behind it is just too greedy. Sure they are a business and need to make money but different decisions such as cash shop only - pets, costumes with stats and items like Elions Tears just make me feel they are too greedy. And why shouldn't they be? There is a post on the forums were people have been bragging about how many $hundreds they have spent.

    My other issue is the pvp is very unbalanced, there is very little strategic counter play available and I feel that and the fact that pvp is unavoidable after 45 are deliberate to push you towards the cash shop.



    Ahh, here you are still spewing the crap that you've been putting all over this website. Sorry they wont let you be the special snowflake that you very much desire to be.

    I respect peoples opinions most of the time but you haven't offered ONE single piece of logic to back it up. Frankly your opinion at this point is simply void.
  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    Great article. Bill is really writing some good pieces recently. I critised him alot in recent years, but then you can only write so much about the Xth WoW clone released.
    Perhaps all it took for once was a more innovative game to write about and we see him sort of rising to the occasion here.

    Since BDO we have seen a lot of good discussions, good articles and many good postings from forum users.
    One can hardly deny that BDO has brought a bit of a fresh wind to this site.

    image
  • ZzadistZzadist Member UncommonPosts: 35




    fed79 said:








    BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.







    I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"









    Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.






    I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.






    bill my good friend. you must remember a majority of these people played World of Warcraft and it's multitude of clones and have no idea how an actual open world type MMO works. So they hit the level "cap" and then they freak out wondering where their raids are and what to do because that is literally all they know. Their ordered and queued arenas. their raids and dungeons. A majority of BDO's content seems foreign and strange to most of them.


Sign In or Register to comment.