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AenraAenra Member UncommonPosts: 45

Rather than discussing concepts and mechanics here, why not part ways with 5 bucks, just 5.., and come talk about them in the Pantheon forum?

Even if the game's not shaped up enough for you to -know- you're interested, your curiosity about it signifies that you want something different. That something different comes at a cost. Show the support others will notice. And in return, come and see how so many of your questions are already answered/covered there. And trust me, most are.

Extra bonus that, let us be honest, this forum is not particularly oriented towards mature discussions now is it. For every one worthy comment, there is an abundance of ..other kinds.. that only serves so as to drown it.

And because, again let us be honest, i am mostly addressing younger people (or you wouldn't still be bothering with mmorpg.com) allow me to put it in your language: No, am not a fanboy. I am very interested, same as you. Difference being i made that show in a tangible manner. Even if it all goes south, we are still left with a statement. That there is an audience for these games. The paying kind of audience. Not the freebie type, conversing in random forums. The type of audience people bother pitching games for. Only we, the players, can make that statement.

Again, just a suggestion. Wish you all well and my apologies if by accident i happened to offend anyone.

Pride, honour and purity

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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,602

    I'm not 100% sure what your talking about ?

    Who pays $5, and for what ?

  • xyzercrimexyzercrime Member RarePosts: 878

    I'm not 100% sure what your talking about ?

    Who pays $5, and for what ?

    Maybe to buy some kind of founder pack so he/she could have an access in official pantheon forum.


    Aenra said:

    Extra bonus that, let us be honest, this forum is not particularly oriented towards mature discussions now is it. For every one worthy comment, there is an abundance of ..other kinds.. that only serves so as to drown it.

    Really sad to saw this comment, but it's true. In here, there are so many "critics" only serve purpose to bashing another game without giving any constructive feedback.




    When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The $5 is indeed a reference to the cost to interact on the official forums. I do not know whether the one time fee gives you unlimited access or whether it requires a subscription.

    While its true that a lot of bashing and immaturity goes on here, I find that we have been able to have some pretty good discussions here on the Pantheon subforum. Nevertheless, I highly recommend those interested in traditional oldschool MMORPG (with no lack of innovation) check out Pantheonmmo.com and decide for themselves whether they feel it worthy of their time and support.

    What is Pantheon?
    The Pantheon Difference
    Pantheon Game Features
    Pantheon Game Tenets


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    I like hte idea of encouraging people to donate, but where we do our discussions is up to us.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Donating is great. But the more places where people are discussing Pantheon, the better off the game will be. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AenraAenra Member UncommonPosts: 45
    edited March 2016

    No offense meant whatsoever @Amathe, this is just my personal opinion.

    While generally your statement is true, everyone benefits from visibility, there are two factors here:

    i) the 'kind' of visibility. Negative, positive, how it comes out, ie the forum members themselves, how and in what ways they express themselves

    ii) the fora it's most evident. One thing to see a game discussed in a mature, selective, subgenre (Pve or PvP) oriented forum, quite another to see it most discussed in an 'agnostic' cesspit. Not insinuating that this or any site is either, am just giving you the two extremes so as to make my point

    Now with that kept in mind, along with this being just my opinion; if you think that to most people, seeing an MMO discussed the most in mmorpg.com is a boon, i would humbly ask you to reconsider. I would also ask you to wonder just how many people take the time, or more importantly, lol, have the patience to actually bother with mmorpg.com's forum postings in the first place. Not its "news" section, am talking about the forums themselves. And whether perhaps there's a reason for that..?

    Either way, i was not advocating for an end of discussions.. merely for supporting those that can (potentially) make the games you want. The rest, questions already answered, community, etc, are just an extra bonus available to those having supported Pantheon. Not the actual reason.

    No one, least of all me, would ask or even hope for an end of discussions. On any a topic :)

    Pride, honour and purity

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Aenra said:

    No offense meant whatsoever @Amathe, this is just my personal opinion.

    No offense taken.

    I'll admit that not all of the discussions which occur here are ones I would want framed and hung over the mantelpiece. But I think that in the end all sides of an issue have their say here.

    Gaming message boards are not normally characterized by their strict adherence to Robert's Rules of Order. They are messy affairs. But gamers seem not to mind that overly much. And due to some recent house cleaning things are better here now. 

    I have it on a to do list to join the Pantheon site. :) 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Because the Pantheon forums are 90% delusional fanbois? You couldn't pay most people to post there and you want us to pay them? Ummm no.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 37,036
    edited March 2016
    I understand the OPs reasoning but I just can't abide forums that heavily moderate discussions, particularly when terms like constructive criticism are thrown about.  

    I prefer the forums here, they have a reasonable balance and I'm allowed to determine for myself whether someone is being constructive, or spewing nonsense.

    I'm a big boy, I don't need "Nanny" mods keeping control of the conversations.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Because the Pantheon forums are 90% delusional fanbois? You couldn't pay most people to post there and you want us to pay them? Ummm no.
    By delusional fanbois, you must mean people who actually agree with Pantheon's game tenets. Which begs the question, what are you even doing here if you don't?


  • KilsinKilsin Member RarePosts: 507
    Kyleran said:
    I understand the OPs reasoning but I just can't abide forums that heavily moderate discussions, particularly when terms like constructive criticism are thrown about.  

    I prefer the forums here, they have a reasonable balance and I'm allowed to determine for myself whether someone is being constructive, or spewing nonsense.

    I'm a big boy, I don't need "Nanny" mods keeping control of the conversations.

    I am the CM and the Lead Moderator (and only moderator) for the forums currently and have been for the last ~2 years and I have left multiple threads with sometimes up to 5-10 pages of constructive criticism that highlight mistakes or the negatives in our game or handling of it, I do not censor anyone unless they make personal attacks or post in a hostile or childish manner, I believe in mature constructive feedback so we can gather that important information and use it to better ourselves personally and as a company.

    So please do not let your experience with other forums and moderators effect your opinion of our forums as it takes a lot to get a post deleted or closed on our forums. Our community is much more mature than most others and that shows in a lot of the threads and discussions on our forums, the only reason we have them locked behind a paywall is for a few reasons, but two of the most important ones are:

    1) It helps fund the game and the money goes towards making Pantheon, purchasing licenses, programs, servers, website and helping support team members who work on the game.

    2) It filters a lot of the trolls and toxic anonymous people from turning our site into a trash pit of negativity and arguments like you see on many others sites these days and allows us to focus on the more serious community members who want to help us create a game that we all want to play.

    Anyone can read the information on our site for free but to join in, it will cost a minimum of $5/month for access to the general sections, which we feel is very reasonable considering that we are still in development and being funded by our supporters and angel investor.

    I can assure you that I am a big boy too and enjoy reading debates and gathering constructive criticism from our community members ;)

    I wanted to add that while it was a nice gesture for Aenra to post this, it is not something we force onto people or freely advertise other than having a join button on our website for anyone interested in supporting us and having their say on the forums.

    We appreciate all support whether it's financial or someone wishing us well from the sidelines watching our progress, it all adds up and helps motivate us to succeed. :)

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website. | Facebook | Twitter

  • AruviaAruvia Member UncommonPosts: 86
    edited March 2016

    I will start by saying that I only just recently started looking at Pantheon. I see a lot that is promising and I am carefully optimistic.

    That being said, as much as I am interested in Pantheon I am reluctant to donate money at this point.

    If/when I do give money to the hope of a game it is not only for the belief in the concepts presented but also to my belief in the dev team.

    I will however, not ever pay to participate in a forum, While I understand that one benefit of this is to limit trolling and extreme negativity just for the sake of being negative, it also limits the discussions to only those who have a vested interest which has its drawback as well, including limited input to an even smaller subset of potential customers.

    There can be many reasons that one may not be able or willing to fork over money to an Idea or a hope, including income, age, fear, risk etc. that would not necessarily mean that they would not contribute effectively in non monetary ways, such as forums discussions, presenting ideas or thoughts.  I was honestly disappointed to see the $5 a month fee as had I been able to participate in the official forums that is where I would be. And when the time came that I was willing/able to give money it would have been far more than $5 a month.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Aruvia said:

    I will start by saying that I only just recently started looking at Pantheon. I see a lot that is promising and I am carefully optimistic.

    That being said, as much as I am interested in Pantheon I am reluctant to donate money at this point.

    If/when I do give money to the hope of a game it is not only for the belief in the concepts presented but also to my belief in the dev team.

    I will however, not ever pay to participate in a forum, While I understand that one benefit of this is to limit trolling and extreme negativity just for the sake of being negative, it also limits the discussions to only those who have a vested interest which has its drawback as well, including limited input to an even smaller subset of potential customers.

    There can be many reasons that one may not be able or willing to fork over money to an Idea or a hope, including income, age, fear, risk etc. that would not necessarily mean that they would not contribute effectively in non monetary ways, such as forums discussions, presenting ideas or thoughts.  I was honestly disappointed to see the $5 a month fee as had I been able to participate in the official forums that is where I would be. And when the time came that I was willing/able to give money it would have been far more than $5 a month.

    Had you been there when the forum was a free for all, you'd probably change your mind.

    I don't believe there is anything wrong with limiting the potential input whatsoever. This isn't a game being created for everyone, but that is exactly what an open forum suggests. As a result, you have so many different voices and opinions, a productive conversation becomes impossible. Thats just the way the internet is in 2016. Even among the more enthusiastic backers of Pantheon, opinions differ considerably.

    As far as concern that Visionary Realms may not hear the thoughts of potential fans, theres no need to worry. While they may not participate on a daily basis, Brad, Joppa, Monte, Kilsin and probably others browse several non-official forums including this one.


  • AruviaAruvia Member UncommonPosts: 86
    While I respect your opinion, I do disagree. to a point. Mostly, if I am honest with myself I disagree because I am not ready AND not able to spend money at the moment and would like to participate in the official forums, While I can and will discuss things here this is not a sandbox I really like to play in anymore. and it is only for this game that I logged in here again at all.. 

    I was a huge proponent of VG I will not go into details here why I felt .. well .. disappointed to say the least with how that turned out. which is part of why I am reluctant to give money to this game at this time.

    While I understand that this game, like many others is not intended to necessarily reach a mass audience, hiding behind the "this game is not for you" attitude whenever someone disagrees with you accomplishes nothing.

    I find it interesting that you in one paragraph state that "a productive conversation becomes impossible" yet in the next say "thers no need to worry" that the devs do browse here. 

    and if a productive conversation is not possible on an open forum than whay bother posting here if what you are looking for is exactly that.

    Do I expect the policy of charging to participate on forums to change, nope. but at the same time it does appear to me to be nothing more than a money grab. in which case you are probably correct that is not a game for me. when greed trumps community I am out. and when community meens if you disagree with me than this is not the game for you then again you are right and I am out. thank you for your imput and I get your message.
     
  • ZarriyaZarriya Member UncommonPosts: 446
    edited March 2016
    Aruvia said:
    While I respect your opinion, I do disagree. to a point. Mostly, if I am honest with myself I disagree because I am not ready AND not able to spend money at the moment and would like to participate in the official forums, While I can and will discuss things here this is not a sandbox I really like to play in anymore. and it is only for this game that I logged in here again at all.. 

    I was a huge proponent of VG I will not go into details here why I felt .. well .. disappointed to say the least with how that turned out. which is part of why I am reluctant to give money to this game at this time.

    While I understand that this game, like many others is not intended to necessarily reach a mass audience, hiding behind the "this game is not for you" attitude whenever someone disagrees with you accomplishes nothing.

    I find it interesting that you in one paragraph state that "a productive conversation becomes impossible" yet in the next say "thers no need to worry" that the devs do browse here. 

    and if a productive conversation is not possible on an open forum than whay bother posting here if what you are looking for is exactly that.

    Do I expect the policy of charging to participate on forums to change, nope. but at the same time it does appear to me to be nothing more than a money grab. in which case you are probably correct that is not a game for me. when greed trumps community I am out. and when community meens if you disagree with me than this is not the game for you then again you are right and I am out. thank you for your imput and I get your message.
     
    Hiya Aruvia,

    I do not think the forum sub is a money grab at all. I am sick of games money grabbing, so I would be quick to voice that if I felt that way.  I do understand why you would feel that way.  Across kickstarter, here and other forums there was an excessive and unproductive amount of trolling and negativity in the past. I truly feel this is simply a filter for that. There was actually a poll asking the Pantheon forum community if they wanted to open up the site to the public. There was a strong voice against it from the forum community, I also opposed - I wanted a place to post that was free from all of that.

     I am all for free speech. One of the reasons I love this site. My own guild's forums where I moderate, I do not censor.  However,  this game has had to deal with some immature, over the top, unproductive trolling that was just downright rude. I had subbed just to support the game. I do not believe everyone should do the same unless they truly want to and that is okay. The official forums are free to read and the dev team spends a huge amount of time posting here and facebook. Click on Kilsin's or Aradune's name and you will see how much they post here. Honestly its more dev interaction than I have seen in any other game I have followed!

    Post edited by Zarriya on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    Aruvia said:
    While I respect your opinion, I do disagree. to a point. Mostly, if I am honest with myself I disagree because I am not ready AND not able to spend money at the moment and would like to participate in the official forums, While I can and will discuss things here this is not a sandbox I really like to play in anymore. and it is only for this game that I logged in here again at all.. 

    I was a huge proponent of VG I will not go into details here why I felt .. well .. disappointed to say the least with how that turned out. which is part of why I am reluctant to give money to this game at this time.

    While I understand that this game, like many others is not intended to necessarily reach a mass audience, hiding behind the "this game is not for you" attitude whenever someone disagrees with you accomplishes nothing.

    I find it interesting that you in one paragraph state that "a productive conversation becomes impossible" yet in the next say "thers no need to worry" that the devs do browse here. 

    and if a productive conversation is not possible on an open forum than whay bother posting here if what you are looking for is exactly that.

    Do I expect the policy of charging to participate on forums to change, nope. but at the same time it does appear to me to be nothing more than a money grab. in which case you are probably correct that is not a game for me. when greed trumps community I am out. and when community meens if you disagree with me than this is not the game for you then again you are right and I am out. thank you for your imput and I get your message.
     
    Didn't say it was not a game for you, nor did I suggest it. I was actually under the assumption that you liked Pantheon, however apprehensive you may be.

    However, when it becomes clear that a person is adamantly against Pantheon's tenets and design and argues for the sake of argument, I think stating the game may not be for them is a great way of cutting through the bullshit.

    This subforum is not really representative of Pantheon, so it doesn't get nearly the traffic as the official forum does (or would). As such, trolling VR or Pantheon fans here is almost pointless. We can actually have some good discussions and devs can actually get something from reading here or occasionally participating. I find it worth my time at least, and look at is as an opportunity to continue getting the word out about the game.


  • AruviaAruvia Member UncommonPosts: 86
    edited March 2016
    Zarriya said:
    Aruvia said:
    (snip)

    Do I expect the policy of charging to participate on forums to change, nope. but at the same time it does appear to me to be nothing more than a money grab. in which case you are probably correct that is not a game for me. when greed trumps community I am out. and when community meens if you disagree with me than this is not the game for you then again you are right and I am out. thank you for your imput and I get your message.
     
    Hiya Aruvia,
    (snip)
    There was actually a poll asking the Pantheon forum community if they wanted to open up the site to the public. There was a strong voice against it from the forum community, I also opposed - I wanted a place to post that was free from all of that.

    This is actually a good sign to me that they actually considered, in addition to the fact that someone who would speak out against money grabs does not feel like it is.

    Dullahan said:
    Aruvia said:


    While I understand that this game, like many others is not intended to necessarily reach a mass audience, hiding behind the "this game is not for you" attitude whenever someone disagrees with you accomplishes nothing. 

    (snip)
     
    Didn't say it was not a game for you, nor did I suggest it. I was actually under the assumption that you liked Pantheon, however apprehensive you may be.

    However, when it becomes clear that a person is adamantly against Pantheon's tenets and design and argues for the sake of argument, I think stating the game may not be for them is a great way of cutting through the bullshit.

    This subforum is not really representative of Pantheon, so it doesn't get nearly the traffic as the official forum does (or would). As such, trolling VR or Pantheon fans here is almost pointless. We can actually have some good discussions and devs can actually get something from reading here or occasionally participating. I find it worth my time at least, and look at is as an opportunity to continue getting the word out about the game.

    While I did write this in response to you it was meant more as an in general attitude that plagues many game forums. and regardless of which side I am on in a discussion I don’t really feel like it’s a good answer.

    I personally just prefer a different approach that may not be quite as direct but can also help foster a healthier community.

    Just as an example:

     If one person said there should be a very harsh death penalty and someone else said there should not be but most agreed there will be. The best answer in my opinion would not be “well you don’t like harsh DP then this is not the game for you” this statement belittles the view of the person without knowing all the facts.

    For all we know this could be the only tenant that they don’t care for. It may be an extreme dislike or even hatred of the DP but the rest of the features may outweigh this con. Thus it is a game for them even if they hate the DP. Thus it may be better to answer with something like

    “ I understand this is not a feature you like, but perhaps after you try the game you will find that the game is enjoyable despite this drawback for you.”


    well  something like that anyway.. , again thank you both for your informative insights.

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Dullahan said:
    Because the Pantheon forums are 90% delusional fanbois? You couldn't pay most people to post there and you want us to pay them? Ummm no.
    By delusional fanbois, you must mean people who actually agree with Pantheon's game tenets. Which begs the question, what are you even doing here if you don't?
    No I mean delusional fanboi's. You know....the people who worship the ground Brad walks on? To the point where he can do no wrong and any idea that contradicts the original project scope is met is disdain or dismissal. The same people who think past devs getting screwed over and 45k pillaged never actually happened.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    Aruvia said:

    While I did write this in response to you it was meant more as an in general attitude that plagues many game forums. and regardless of which side I am on in a discussion I don’t really feel like it’s a good answer.

    I personally just prefer a different approach that may not be quite as direct but can also help foster a healthier community.

    Just as an example:

     If one person said there should be a very harsh death penalty and someone else said there should not be but most agreed there will be. The best answer in my opinion would not be “well you don’t like harsh DP then this is not the game for you” this statement belittles the view of the person without knowing all the facts.

    For all we know this could be the only tenant that they don’t care for. It may be an extreme dislike or even hatred of the DP but the rest of the features may outweigh this con. Thus it is a game for them even if they hate the DP. Thus it may be better to answer with something like

    “ I understand this is not a feature you like, but perhaps after you try the game you will find that the game is enjoyable despite this drawback for you.”


    well  something like that anyway.. , again thank you both for your informative insights.

    Ah, if only things could be that civil on the internet in 2016.

    I agree 100% though, that should be the first course of action. If only it could end there without the party who disagrees becoming an antagonist that then goes on a crusade to subvert and/or convert both devs and players alike to change their opinion or forever be stupid.


  • RexKushmanRexKushman Member RarePosts: 596
    There is no way I would ever pay a sub fee for a forum for a game that isn't released, that is just a money grabbing scheme to keep the fanboys feeling like special snowflakes. This has nothing to do with it being Pantheon, im talking just a general rule. Sounds like a great way to only get the "feedback" that the devs want to hear, which can be ruinous to a game once it releases.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Perhaps make the Pantheon forums free, but every time anyone uses the terms Ez-mode, dumbed down, casual, hand holding or mainstream, they have to put $1 in a jar. That would fund the entire game. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    There is no way I would ever pay a sub fee for a forum for a game that isn't released, that is just a money grabbing scheme to keep the fanboys feeling like special snowflakes. This has nothing to do with it being Pantheon, im talking just a general rule. Sounds like a great way to only get the "feedback" that the devs want to hear, which can be ruinous to a game once it releases.
    Agreed. Another Kickstarter would be less shady anyways and probably more successful now that they have something to go on other than "hopes and dreams."
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    There is no way I would ever pay a sub fee for a forum for a game that isn't released, that is just a money grabbing scheme to keep the fanboys feeling like special snowflakes. This has nothing to do with it being Pantheon, im talking just a general rule. Sounds like a great way to only get the "feedback" that the devs want to hear, which can be ruinous to a game once it releases.
    $5/month seems to be a nominal fee.  It seems a reasonable way to keep the true trolls out as well as the free to play crowd - they don't want to pay for anything (I know this is an unsupported generalization).

    Can you see the posts without paying?  Just curious - I haven't been to the website in over a year probably.  I don't follow vaporware very closely.

    (Before anybody gets upset - I consider any game that is pre-beta to be vaporware no matter who is funding it - look at Titan)
  • AenraAenra Member UncommonPosts: 45

    @Scott23 you can view a segment of the forum; general discussion (which is where the vast majority of the discussions take place), lore, crafting, off topic, etc. What's locked out is a number of subforums wherein specific Pantheon aspects are discussed in more depth, and/or concepts that are still in the making are explored further.

    Whether this is agreeable or not, to each their own. But as i see the discussion having veered towards this (what do we pay for?), let me once more remind that this is a matter of approach. If you find it annoying that information is hidden from you prior to paying, no one's here to change your mind. If however you want to make a statement and put some money down, the above are a bonus. Bonus. Not the reason for which you'd be doing this in the first place.

    And i'm not upset about anything :)

    We have all yet to see what will come out of this and whether (assuming it does) it will be to our liking or not. As many regulars can tell you, i myself criticise plenty of its aspects. Even worse, i criticise aspects and have yet to see any official response. On any of them.

    Which, again, leads us to my OP. You do this to send a message. You do this because for the past decade, no one has and no one will make this kind of MMO. Hence the low price, hence the gesture. I am not Brad's friend or acquaintance, nor do i care to ever be. I am not a Pantheon fanboy, nor could i ever allow me to become one; i AM however a player who is entirely ignored by the industry. I do what i can to show them i am still a financially viable investment. And i do that by paying.

    Not by talking free speech to some random forum. No one notices free. Everyone notices benefit. Hard facts of life :)

    Pride, honour and purity

  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    @Aenra Thanks for the information.  I think that the last time I was on Pantheon's website you had to subscribe (or have donated) to have any access.  Note that this was very shortly after the failed Kickstarter.

    The 'upset' comment was not aimed at anyone in particular - It's just that I have been accused of being unpleasant things by referring to unreleased software as vaporware.

    The slight fee for posting access and the bonus forums seems reasonable to me.  There is no such thing as free speech when you are posting on any companies website.  Anyone that believes that there is has other issues :)  I would consider paying the fee, but I can post fine here and I don't trust Brad to deliver a completed game after Vanguard.  Hopefully he will come through this time as my first MMO was EQ and I liked the potential that Vanguard had.

    It is always easier to get enthusiastic about concept and pre-alpha before the game veers from your ideal.  I don't mean this as a downer post, but I am just managing my expectations.
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