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Bring back the beat down

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Comments

  • wesjrwesjr Member UncommonPosts: 506
    flizzer said:
    So hope we see none of that.  I seriously doubt a game that frustrating would be appealing to day. I sure would not be playing. 
    No offence, but you're not who the game is for then. There are many games that cater to all types of play styles, not all have to cater to one play style.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534

    Not coming from the original formula of mmos ( EQ1 and FF11 ), I'll admit, I was in some shock at the difficulty of the Developers Twitch presentation.......The more I let it soak in, the more I like a "Beat down" 

    However, I think dying all the time could even turn off the old school players to a degree.

    Maybe their is another way to install consequence's other than dying all the time ?

    I seriously doubt player's would die that often under normal circumstances. They were trying to give a demo of the game, so they were trying to keep up the pace. Normally players would wait to pick off solo mobs, but they were just running right in, probably for sake of time. Its also likely they wanted to show a bit of the aggro system so players could see just how dangerous the world can be.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    The stream was just a tour of the kitchen. They weren't actually cooking dinner. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 399
    Great idea! Also, every step a player takes should come with a 0.001% chance to just spontaneously combust into a pile ash. Every step a player takes should have "meaning" damnit! 
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    Count me in OP as long as I get first dibs to release the spectres :)
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,140
    I like it.
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Amathe said:
    Everquest was filled with ways for you to get killed when you least expected it.

    Opps there is a wandering mob 20 levels higher than the other mobs in the zone. Dead.

    Enter a zone and get trained immediately, or aggro what someone left there as they exited. Dead.

    Rare mob spawns next to you. Dead.

    Look I'm following the road that goes through the zone. Won't save you. Dead. 

    Mob under the ground. Dead.

    Tiny little brownie behind a tree. Dead.

    Equestrielle the Corrupted comes half way across the zone to ambush you. Dead. 

    I could list 500 other things. Your head was always on a swivel. The game was not trying to set you up to succeed. It stole your lunch money and kicked you to the curb.

    That's the fear I want to see again. 


    I could live without the undergrounds mobs, those were bugs.


    The rest were just game knowledge and a little skill.

    Know you spawn locations, carry invis potions when traveling through dangerous zones, maintain situational awareness. The fear instilled in you at low level by these dangers made for better immersion and more skilled players at higher level.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Member UncommonPosts: 2,255
    I agree with OP.  Basically, a character in the world is NOT "the hero", but a wandering adventurer.  The world will always be more formidable.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    What I actually would like to see is a challenging harsh MMO BUT with the ability to pause it. The problem with MMO's, unlike single player games, is you CAN'T pause them. So if you're in the middle of something very difficult and your actions are necessary to success, you simply cannot leave without grave consequences. In a single player game, no matter how difficult, you can always at least pause. I'm in support of grave consequences, as anyone would know if they surveyed my posts on this forum. BUT MMO's should meet RL at least halfway. I have to think MMO's, even harsh ones, can do this.

    The hard part is how to offer players hte ability to pause without destroying the interdependence and the "beat down". I'm unsure how to do that, I just like to bring up the idea.

    For example, if an MMO makes its classes interdependent then if someone "pauses" to deal with a crying baby, what does their group do in their absence, especially if they're a cleric? Does the group receive some kind of benefit or bonus from the paused cleric? The problem with that is it allows a person who's AFK to contribute and I'm not sure that's a good idea. It might be exploited or it may encourage people to be non-social. It might also indirectly cause the content to be dumbed down, so groups with paused members can still succeed.

    An example of it causing trouble for the "beat down" is if you confront a big bad monsters and you're near death, so you pause. What if the monsters loses interest and walks away? Do you escape the consequence? Isn't that evading the "beat down" thing?

    One possible alternative in MMO's with interdependency is to NOT give any bonus or advantage to groups with paused members. Instead pausing essentially removes them from the group and causes them to feign death. The group has to go on without them. The worst result from this is a player might not pause because it may cause the group to wipe or break up. This defeats a big reason to have pause at all, but it may still be worthwhile to try.

    But what do you do to preserve the "beat down"? In Everquest, monks and shadowknights and necromancers could feign death. This means they could prevent some of the worst "beat downs". But this was also by design, since them surviving worse case scenarios was part of the interdependency. It was one of their abilities. If every player has it then all players will have a better abiilty to survive worst case scenarios, meaning the "beat down" is weak.

    So you see the problem? In single player games pause doesn't stop a game from being difficult. This is because the world doesn't have to continue on after you pause it, since it's not an MMO. The only possible advantage pause gives you in SP games is you can think about your options for a few moments--important in a real-time game.

    But I still feel pause could work for a harsh interdependent MMO, but it'd have to be different, I think. It'd have to innovate. There'd have to be an understanding the community that keep the MMO harsh and interdepenent is goal #1. Otherwise, it'll just get watered down and will lose those traits almost overnight. Most players are carebears and this happens easily. The hardest thing in the world is to keep an MMO harsh and interdependent.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    The real time nature of MMOs is part of what makes them so appealing.

    That said, older MMOs were definitely more "pauseable" than your modern games. In those games, you had downtime, longer respawn times and areas of general safety almost anywhere. In modern games, the action is meant to be non-stop. No downtime, fast to nearly instant respawn times. Testing bdo with a few other players, I found myself, on a regular basis, holding off on using the restroom for fear that the group would be miles away and that the mobs we killed mere seconds ago would be killing me before I could make it back to the computer. I had to literally log to desktop to get anything done.


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    The real time nature of MMOs is part of what makes them so appealing.

    That said, older MMOs were definitely more "pauseable" than your modern games. In those games, you had downtime, longer respawn times and areas of general safety almost anywhere. In modern games, the action is meant to be non-stop. No downtime, fast to nearly instant respawn times. Testing bdo with a few other players, I found myself, on a regular basis, holding off on using the restroom for fear that the group would be miles away and that the mobs we killed mere seconds ago would be killing me before I could make it back to the computer. I had to literally log to desktop to get anything done.
    Exactly. How many of us "paused" after a big fight, to regenerate mana/hitpionts? All the time! That was everquest. We chatted a lot too. And sometimes we'd hide or go to safe spot and /afk temporarily, even when we didn't need to med/regen. Sometimes I couldn't wiat for those windows.

    But what I"m getting at is something with the convenience of pausing in single player games. There's nothing like that in MMO's and it's a big obstacle, IMHO. I understand what you mean by the real-time nature of MMO's making them appealing, but don't you think there's room for some more innovation in this respect? Can't MMO's meet RL halfway?

    Also these newer MMO's give you less and less reason to group anyway, so worrying about going afk is rarely a problem, unless you're actually grouping. Do you have to gorup a lot in BDO?

    My main point is I think it's hard, maybe very hard, to preserve interdependency and the "beat down" while having an pause resembling feign death. I can't, at this time, think of a way to guarantee preservation. But maybe a full-time professional game designer could.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Dullahan said:
    The real time nature of MMOs is part of what makes them so appealing.

    That said, older MMOs were definitely more "pauseable" than your modern games. In those games, you had downtime, longer respawn times and areas of general safety almost anywhere. In modern games, the action is meant to be non-stop. No downtime, fast to nearly instant respawn times. Testing bdo with a few other players, I found myself, on a regular basis, holding off on using the restroom for fear that the group would be miles away and that the mobs we killed mere seconds ago would be killing me before I could make it back to the computer. I had to literally log to desktop to get anything done.
    Exactly. How many of us "paused" after a big fight, to regenerate mana/hitpionts? All the time! That was everquest. We chatted a lot too. And sometimes we'd hide or go to safe spot and /afk temporarily, even when we didn't need to med/regen. Sometimes I couldn't wiat for those windows.

    But what I"m getting at is something with the convenience of pausing in single player games. There's nothing like that in MMO's and it's a big obstacle, IMHO. I understand what you mean by the real-time nature of MMO's making them appealing, but don't you think there's room for some more innovation in this respect? Can't MMO's meet RL halfway?

    I think downtime and having areas of relative safety is meeting it halfway.
    Also these newer MMO's give you less and less reason to group anyway, so worrying about going afk is rarely a problem, unless you're actually grouping. Do you have to gorup a lot in BDO?
    Grouping is marginally more efficient and some of the better things in the game require grouping as well. The problem was not just with grouping though. Due to the high respawn rates, even when soloing you would go deep into an area and sort of "hold down" an nice spot. By keeping the mobs perpetually killed, it discouraged other players from invading your space. As soon as you stop, people would move in and then conflict would arise (which can be fun if you aren't more interested in accomplishing another goal). That made it problematic to leave a spot or even stop grinding for a few seconds.

    My main point is I think it's hard, maybe very hard, to preserve interdependency and the "beat down" while having an pause resembling feign death. I can't, at this time, think of a way to guarantee preservation. But maybe a full-time professional game designer could.
    Having the ability to truly pause an MMO is simply not an option. That is called logging out. If you're in the kind of situation where you are on call for work or have other matters to attend to, your best bet is to not get involved in something that demands more of your attention. Possibly soloing or playing with a friend in a less risky environment.


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    (snip)
    Having the ability to truly pause an MMO is simply not an option. That is called logging out. If you're in the kind of situation where you are on call for work or have other matters to attend to, your best bet is to not get involved in something that demands more of your attention. Possibly soloing or playing with a friend in a less risky environment.
    Maybe you're right. I do remember in Everquest there were times whne people just up and left. Sometimes they'd leave their character and would die. They might get out a short "gtg" before leaving. Or they might feign death. I know I did that sometimes. Lets face it, stuff happens.

    I never did that often because I wanted to be known as someone who could be depended on and who'd give lots of warning. It was common practice to disband members who afk'd too much, since it caused trouble and sucked up a group slot. It works I guess if you let them know you'll be busy and might have to ninja-afk a couple times. We all understand that.

    But RL has to be more important than a game, even if the game is an MMO. Skipping meals or eating chips for lunch or grunting like a animal when a family member asks about something are all undesired traits.

    /sigh.

    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
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