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Bring back the beat down

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,629
Everquest was filled with ways for you to get killed when you least expected it.

Opps there is a wandering mob 20 levels higher than the other mobs in the zone. Dead.

Enter a zone and get trained immediately, or aggro what someone left there as they exited. Dead.

Rare mob spawns next to you. Dead.

Look I'm following the road that goes through the zone. Won't save you. Dead. 

Mob under the ground. Dead.

Tiny little brownie behind a tree. Dead.

Equestrielle the Corrupted comes half way across the zone to ambush you. Dead. 

I could list 500 other things. Your head was always on a swivel. The game was not trying to set you up to succeed. It stole your lunch money and kicked you to the curb.

That's the fear I want to see again. 

EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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Comments

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    How would you sell a game? Pick:
    1) Become a better player through challenging encounters and quests, and cooperate with others to defeat the biggest foes
    2) Ruthless enemies who'll hunt you down using our swarm-AI algorithms, extreme danger at every turn, permanent death, FFA PvP and no solo content makes our MMO the deadliest you've ever played

    It's just not sexy to sell a game on this. But I understand. I agree with you. It's sad because most plaeyrs don't agree and don't want those thigns again.

    It could be (1) and (2), but (2) isn't popular enough, so it won't happen. It all can be simplified down to the fact consequences are immersion and immersion isn't necessarily fun. It's not universally fun.

    Game design schools are also discouraging things like this. So it's understood a high level monster in a low level zone is bad design. Essentialy anything which can have negative consequences is bad design. What they go for instead is to hve positive reinforcement. So rather than smacking you upside the head when you fail they instead ignore your failures and give you a cookie when you do well. The intent is to diminish failure and emphasize success.

    The downside of this latest thinking is it makes MMO's too safe, IMHO. Cliffs aren't cliffs. Dangers aren't dangers. It's carebear. I hate to use that word because only a small minority will agree with me. But you have to understand from MY standpoint it's carebear. I'm extremely niche.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I really liked the way Dark Souls handled this.  It was pretty much just assumed that you were going to die alot in that game from the get-go.  I loved the challenge of it in that game.  I wish more games were upfront and honest like that.

    But, at the same time, the death system was built for tons of death there.  It should be interesting to see how they go about balancing it out in Pantheon.

    I wonder if they'll just expect people to die constantly come release, or if they'll take the opposite road and design so you are expected to stay alive at all costs.
  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,439
    So hope we see none of that.  I seriously doubt a game that frustrating would be appealing to day. I sure would not be playing. 
  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 318
    Amathe said:
    Everquest was filled with ways for you to get killed when you least expected it.

    Opps there is a wandering mob 20 levels higher than the other mobs in the zone. Dead.

    Enter a zone and get trained immediately, or aggro what someone left there as they exited. Dead.

    Rare mob spawns next to you. Dead.

    Look I'm following the road that goes through the zone. Won't save you. Dead. 

    Mob under the ground. Dead.

    Tiny little brownie behind a tree. Dead.

    Equestrielle the Corrupted comes half way across the zone to ambush you. Dead. 

    I could list 500 other things. Your head was always on a swivel. The game was not trying to set you up to succeed. It stole your lunch money and kicked you to the curb.

    That's the fear I want to see again. 
    I totally agree I wonder if pvp being more popular wasnt a way to make up for the easy pve we have gotten for so long if that makes sense. But what if a game came out that brought back that feeling of fear we would get when adventuring maybe it would bring balance and fun to even the more pvp centric players. Obviously not all because lets be honest the douchbagery is real in the genre but I think were at a point now AI wise that it would be doable.
  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 318
    How would you sell a game? Pick:
    1) Become a better player through challenging encounters and cooperation with others
    2) Ruthless enemies who'll hunt you down using our swarm-AI algorithms, extreme danger at every turn, permanent death, FFA PvP and no solo content makes our MMO the deadliest you've ever played

    It's just not sexy to sell a game on this. But I understand. I agree with you. It's sad because most plaeyrs don't agree and don't want those thigns again.

    It could be (1) and (2), but (2) isn't popular enough, so it won't happen. It all can be simplified down to the fact consequences are immersion and immersion isn't necessarily fun. It's not universally fun.

    Game design schools are also discouraging things like this. So it's understood a high level monster in a low level zone is bad design. Essentialy anything which can have negative consequences is bad design. What they go for instead is to hve positive reinforcement. So rather than smacking you upside the head when you fail they instead ignore your failures and give you a cookie when you do well. The intent is to diminish failure and emphasize success.

    The downside of this latest thinking is it makes MMO's too safe, IMHO. Cliffs aren't cliffs. Dangers aren't dangers. It's carebear. I hate to use that word because only a small minority will agree with me. But you have to understand from MY standpoint it's carebear. I'm extremely niche.
    I hate saying it but alot of the problem will always be investers not wanting to take the chances to change direction and try new things but in good news were are seeing a change and more indie companies trying to bring back that old feel Pantheon/Chronicles of Elyria which I highly recommend looking at. There is definitely room in the market for both.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,629
    Rasiem said:

    Obviously not all because lets be honest the douchbagery is real in the genre but I think were at a point now AI wise that it would be doable.
    It seems that way, true enough. But really the douchbagery in games is much less than in real life. I encounter more douchebags driving to work every day in Miami than in a month of online gaming. :) 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Amathe said:
    Rasiem said:

    Obviously not all because lets be honest the douchbagery is real in the genre but I think were at a point now AI wise that it would be doable.
    It seems that way, true enough. But really the douchbagery in games is much less than in real life. I encounter more douchebags driving to work every day in Miami than in a month of online gaming. :) 
    Thats because, much like being a douche in video games, people feel empowered while anonymous and out of reach in their vehicles.


  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 485
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
  • TimberhickTimberhick Member UncommonPosts: 554
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    6 people =/=
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,368
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    I agree with this point of view more so than any others.  I feel that gamers today are playing what is available.  I know EQ is still around, but lets face it, those graphics don't stand a chance now.  It looks as though soon enough we will be presented with the opportunity to try something approaching the 'old school' games.  I can't wait honestly.  Will it appeal to the masses?  Hard to say, but at least the opportunity will be there.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 485
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    6 people =/=
    6 people in a group on p99... 
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,629
    DMKano said:
    I am so looking forward to training folks in Pantheon. 
    Make some neckbeards mad.

     And yes I speak from experience a lot of my eq1 guildies are in fact neckbeards today. ;)

    Gonna be a fun game 

    I had to look up neckbeard. Good word. I'll be using it. :) 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,572
    DMKano said:
    I am so looking forward to training folks in Pantheon. 
    Make some neckbeards mad.

     And yes I speak from experience a lot of my eq1 guildies are in fact neckbeards today. ;)

    Gonna be a fun game 


    Not too sure what a neckbeard is either, but I like the sound of that.  And yes it's gonna be a fun game.

    First time in a long time I agreed with DMKano :)

  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    This is a pretty awful example of how players in a new game like Pantheon might react though.  Anyone on P99 has pretty much already played EQ and already knows how it works, so of course they didn't cry and quit the game.  Anyone on P99 is all chips in already.

    Some people like a real challenge, but I don't believe alot of the newer gen gamers will be able to bridge the gap very well with the time-sinks(like the long corpse runs you mention, as an example).
    Point is, you can hardly use P99 players as an example of how modern gamers are going to react in Pantheon.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Lokero said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    This is a pretty awful example of how players in a new game like Pantheon might react though.  Anyone on P99 has pretty much already played EQ and already knows how it works, so of course they didn't cry and quit the game.  Anyone on P99 is all chips in already.

    Some people like a real challenge, but I don't believe alot of the newer gen gamers will be able to bridge the gap very well with the time-sinks(like the long corpse runs you mention, as an example).
    Point is, you can hardly use P99 players as an example of how modern gamers are going to react in Pantheon.
    I don't think there is any better example to use than classic EQ. If people don't like a more dangerous and less forgiving game like EQ, they probably won't like Pantheon. The truth is though, there are so many new non-MMOs that focus on that type of gameplay, there are plenty of people who never experienced it in an MMO who may find it was exactly what was missing to keep them playing for more than a month.


  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,309
    edited March 2016
    i like all those ideas except the mob training. i just think that is a mechanic that should never be brought back. it is a flawed mechanic that does nothing but enable grieving.

    i think the best way to do it is just have the mobs only aggro the first person to initiate combat and their group/raid. if they chase a player across a content and then the player dies, then the mob could aggro anyone else on it's way back to it's spawn point.

    which would add an element of danger but wouldn't allow people to purposely train mobs onto your camp to grief you or steal your camp.

    well they might still if they are creative with their FD's and judge the mobs pathing correctly. lol

    but at least the group would see it coming and have time to react since its walking and not pursing a player.

    just my opinion.
  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    All that describes a lot of my experience from playing Final Fantasy 11
  • TimberhickTimberhick Member UncommonPosts: 554
    Gyva02 said:
    Gyva02 said:
    Last night in P99 Cazel got 3 of our 6 group in Oasis, didn't hear any stomps or anything, he was just BAM! there... Those who got killed did not cry, they did not say they were going quit the game because they lost XP, some took 15 minutes to get back to their corpses, still no crying. Group reformed and we were back at it again and had a few laughs.

    This whole players won't play a game that is challenging is BS, most gamers today have never had the chance to play a challenging game. And I suspect once they do, just as we did, they'll be hooked by the real challenge and meaningful content.... Achieving something will actually mean something and that is what hooks ya.

    So don't start the tears till you actually play the game, then if you decide to cry make sure to put on your pink dress first... That'll be a good laugh...   
    6 people =/=
    6 people in a group on p99... 
    Precisely my point.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Lokero said:
    I really liked the way Dark Souls handled this.  It was pretty much just assumed that you were going to die alot in that game from the get-go.  I loved the challenge of it in that game.  I wish more games were upfront and honest like that.

    But, at the same time, the death system was built for tons of death there.  It should be interesting to see how they go about balancing it out in Pantheon.

    I wonder if they'll just expect people to die constantly come release, or if they'll take the opposite road and design so you are expected to stay alive at all costs.
    I think it works better for a game like Dark Souls because of the combat system in the game. The combat system makes it fun regardless of succeeding or dying. Such a combat system gives you control over that though, that's what makes it fun. That's not exactly the case for a traditional MMORPG combat system. Which is based on numbers/gear and group layout... rather than remembering/memorizing patterns of attack or tells. The former is just a lot harder to make fun or rewarding as far as figuring things out. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    baphamet said:
    i like all those ideas except the mob training. i just think that is a mechanic that should never be brought back. it is a flawed mechanic that does nothing but enable grieving.

    i think the best way to do it is just have the mobs only aggro the first person to initiate combat and their group/raid. if they chase a player across a content and then the player dies, then the mob could aggro anyone else on it's way back to it's spawn point.

    which would add an element of danger but wouldn't allow people to purposely train mobs onto your camp to grief you or steal your camp.

    well they might still if they are creative with their FD's and judge the mobs pathing correctly. lol

    but at least the group would see it coming and have time to react since its walking and not pursing a player.

    just my opinion.
    EQ had many, many bad systems that should never be brought back, imho.  But, I actually really miss trains.

    I agree it should have some limiting factors, like not training on others until the initial target is dead/gone, but there's so many ways around that.  Even just doing a suicide run into another group could train them.  Many people did that since their characters had no FD.

    I agree that it's pretty exploitable as a griefing tactic, but I'd take that over the silly mob tethers like in WoW and such any day.

    Definitely some of my most fun times in EQ were fighting other people's trains though.  Fighting dungeon trains was just an exciting and enjoyable experience.
  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613
    flizzer said:
    So hope we see none of that.  I seriously doubt a game that frustrating would be appealing to day. I sure would not be playing. 
    I would in a heartbeat.
    Plenty of easymode auto win MMOs for all your needs on the market. Let me have this one game that does not hold my hand :)

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • RattenmannRattenmann Member UncommonPosts: 613

    Lokero said:

    Some people like a real challenge, but I don't believe alot of the newer gen gamers will be able to bridge the gap very well with the time-sinks(like the long corpse runs you mention, as an example).
    Point is, you can hardly use P99 players as an example of how modern gamers are going to react in Pantheon.
    Pantheon is aiming at the same people P99 does. NOT at the modern gamer kid. If they join and have fun, great for them. If not...  noone cares. Pantheon is not even trying to reach a huge userbase. They said numerous times that they expect a SMALL userbase and their development is based around that. So they don't go under if they don't hit a million subs like most MMOs do. 

    So to sum it up: VR is targeting EQ and P99 people, so that challange will return. Also a 15min corpse run is not "long". That should be the absolute minimum to even TRY to avoid death. You know...death should not be a form of fast travel anymore ;-)

    MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

    Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,309
    Lokero said:
    baphamet said:
    i like all those ideas except the mob training. i just think that is a mechanic that should never be brought back. it is a flawed mechanic that does nothing but enable grieving.

    i think the best way to do it is just have the mobs only aggro the first person to initiate combat and their group/raid. if they chase a player across a content and then the player dies, then the mob could aggro anyone else on it's way back to it's spawn point.

    which would add an element of danger but wouldn't allow people to purposely train mobs onto your camp to grief you or steal your camp.

    well they might still if they are creative with their FD's and judge the mobs pathing correctly. lol

    but at least the group would see it coming and have time to react since its walking and not pursing a player.

    just my opinion.
    EQ had many, many bad systems that should never be brought back, imho.  But, I actually really miss trains.

    I agree it should have some limiting factors, like not training on others until the initial target is dead/gone, but there's so many ways around that.  Even just doing a suicide run into another group could train them.  Many people did that since their characters had no FD.

    I agree that it's pretty exploitable as a griefing tactic, but I'd take that over the silly mob tethers like in WoW and such any day.

    Definitely some of my most fun times in EQ were fighting other people's trains though.  Fighting dungeon trains was just an exciting and enjoyable experience.
    yeah a suicide mob train is better than what EQ had though when you didn't even need FD to train people. doing a suicide train means everyone dies anyways. i also think if Pantheon handled the way i suggested there wouldn't be any mob tethering like wow had because the mobs still never de-aggro, they will chase you until you are dead.

    hopefully with no zone lines (i'm assuming this at least) it will make it even more challenging to drop aggro as well. that is something i don't know if many think about because in EQ many popular camp spots were at zone lines for an easy escape.

    if there are no zone lines that is going to make it more challenging than EQ in that regard.

    i just think it's the better way to do it and it still adds elements of challenge because you have mobs pathing back to their original spawn points aggroing anything in their path, after their original target is dead or dropped aggro.

    people could still train high level mobs and have them slowly pathing all over the place (after they die or FD) which would add a lot to the fun and challenging actor IMO


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 599
    edited March 2016
    I personally think trains were just hte beginning. I'd lke to see AI implemented and some real tactics or strategy on the part of the monsters not just to kill a single player, but to smoke them all out. It'd slow down the pace of gameplay maybe, but experince could be correspondingly higher.

    How about a zone where all of the groups have to try to coordinate somewhat? Like a raid, kind of? Except it wouldn't be a raid. It'd be more like how in EQ someone would /shout Train! Instead of warning other players there's a train, they might warn them the commander is sending his sentinels, or the bridge is going to be drawn up, or something similar. If the players say nothing, everybody suffers because it'll make the dungeon harder. So each group is more reliant on each other to be communicating and alert.

    I know that might piss some playrs off, having to rely on others like that, but I personally like the idea. We SHOULD coordinate somewhat, even if we're not in raids. It's an MMO after all, not a single player game.

    The trouble is many gamers play MMO"s to relax and have fun. For them anyway, having to be "alert" and "communicating" is taxing.

    I liked trains, for the record. Like another poster stated, they made it more exciting. In all my years of playing I can't recall anybody purposefully starting a train, except once or twice on Sullon Zek--which had no Play Nice rules.

    I think the reason I liked it so much compared to many players is because I'm--as a gamer--a thrill seeker. I like danger in games. Nothing else communicates danger quite like consequences which hurt.

    Pantheon needs to be very careful how it approaches all this "bring back the beat down!" It's a very contentious topic. For one, I hope there's no PvP server. It'll be hard enough just figuring these things out.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,572

    Not coming from the original formula of mmos ( EQ1 and FF11 ), I'll admit, I was in some shock at the difficulty of the Developers Twitch presentation.......The more I let it soak in, the more I like a "Beat down" 

    However, I think dying all the time could even turn off the old school players to a degree.

    Maybe their is another way to install consequence's other than dying all the time ?

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