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Pantheon early expectations

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  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,855
    Rallyd said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    If a debuff was truly on par with experience loss from a death, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just think getting a cleric to your corpse is much more problematic than simply seeking out a player that can dispel a debuff. As Raiden spoke of multiple times, it all comes down to time. Time spent can make an item feel valuable or, in the case of time lost, add tension to combat. There is not much else you can do design-wise to create those feelings. There are other ways to address the time factor, but I just don't see a change in death penalty as necessary if they are essentially doing the same thing.

    As I spoke of earlier, the thing about losing experience is that it was meant to be the greatest challenge when you still had a lot of xp and levels to achieve. It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience, it was a mechanic of learning and was meant to eventually be mitigated at higher levels by class interdependence (much like travel was by group teleports).

    Perhaps a resurrection spell shouldn't completely negate death. I personally wouldn't be against it capping at 75 or even 50% xp restoration, but like I already pointed out, getting a cleric to your corpse can, at times, take as long as it would to earn your experience back. That and it was meant to be a social challenge encouraging players to work together.
    I am truly thinking of the game and the good of it. I want to see as many people as needed to play this game to keep content rolling. The big problem with exp loss is low levels you have so few tools to deal with it that most of the negative effects really only land on new people to the game leveling for the first time. By the time you get to endgame you dont care any more. You have people you can rely on to get fast exp to recover. Reses from friends and guildies. Ports to get you back to your corpse and Necros to summon your corpse. 

    So dinging people learning the game now days wont have the effect it did 17 years ago where the only real quality option was EQ1. EXP loss does only one thing. Makes people think twice about taking risks. Adds a fear element. Does it do anything else for the new gamer? Does it add depth to their class? Does it bring people together? Does it bring interdependence?  Do it add to the economy? A debuff system on death, if done so its impacting can bring these things and this is just one way to add risk. Other layers can be added. So you can have risk of death thats impacting and add more than just a grind. 

    Exp loss does add fear of death but thats all it does and nothing more. I am sure the devs could put their minds together and come up with something better than this. I expect more as many other gamers feel the same way. Its time to bring back the old and add to it. Not just a pure recycle. Gamers expect more or they should.
    Debuff on death, so you mean I just have to afk for 5 minutes and take a piss while my debuff wears off, then I can continue?  Sounds like a real tough death penalty to me... cough not.

    I can see where you're going with your theory, and while you may be correct that there MAY be some system that is better for punishing players time-wise than exp loss, you haven't suggested a good way yet, and neither has anyone else, until then, exp loss stays.

    Also, on the note of lower level players, I just want to throw out there that the amount of exp you lost sub level 20 was so little that you could make it back faster than you could find a rez.  It was a deterrent to zerging and slack-brained play, but not really a sting.

    The biggest component of the death penalty of Everquest was really the corpse.  Without a corpse run there can be nothing, because if all I'm risking is a little exp for venturing into that dungeon to try to get some phats, then I'm not risking anything but a little time.  If I'm risking my corpse, that's an entirely different matter, because if I cant find someone to help me get it out, I could be in for some real trouble.
    No Im not. Im talking aboyt a debuff that stacks with each death. -1% HP -1% stats. You could set a maximum number of debuff or make it unlimited. That would be the devs law on that. Next to remove the debuff you would need to seek out a Shaman or Druid if the debuff you got was from a physical death (melee damage) and they could remove it. If you died by magic you would need to seek out an enchanter or wizard to have it removed. This would spread things out so it would be unlikely you would have everything you need in your team to remove the debuffs. But over standard DPS this would make these classes desired. They could also make money (tips) going to popular exp spots to removes these debuff. You could also have a quest given in town that would remove these debuff by doing a quest. 

    This would keep the fear of death intact and at the same time add the depth of needing other classes. Adding to the economy and best of all, removing the exp grind. This idea can be simplified or more depth added to it. Devs could come up with a better system. The point is, just slapping an exp loss on death is old and worn out mechanic. Can something new be added to the game that gives that same feeling of risk of death that can add more depth as well? The wheel works, why go beyond the wagon wheel? It got the job done. We are in the same place today, yes the wagon wheel works it adds fear of death but the steel belted tire does so much more than going around and around. 



  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,781
    edited March 2016
    Well i for one enjoyed my years of playing the EQ games i do NOT want those systems.Simple reason is WHY would anyone want to LIMIT the game from improving.
    I would have to write several paragraphs to explain the MANY reasons why the EQ systems were borderline average to just bad.I doubt many gamer's put ANY thought into what they want from a game,i wouldn't expect that from a developer or a gamer,you SHOULD have distinct ideas that make a game the BEST it can be,not just "i want DCUO or i want EQ1" that is silly lame reasons to make a game.
    Again without writing a novel,there is not one system i would use from EQ1>VG all of those systems need improving or changes.

    I will touch on a few and i HOPE there is time to still create a BETTER game.

    1 Altaholics "just bad,i am not writing a book to explain why,you SHOULD after years of gaming understand why.
    2 Linear questing "BAD" too many reasons to list.

    3 Aggro systems,one simple proximity aggro system is not enough.

    4 combos,predominantly if not 100% done SOLO in every game,improve this to support the reason we play ONLINE.....use other players.
    5 ECO system,the most important aspect that brings a world to life and not one single game has done it yet.

    MANY more areas but one i should make note of because again NOBODY is doing game design properly.Eliminating initial zones from future game play is just BAD design.Every single game is a RUSH,original LEVELS and original MAPS become ghost towns and nobody cares or uses that content ever again,might as well delete it from the hard drive.This is why you need a sub class system,it keeps level 1 relevant as well as original maps and content.
    On that same note Level 1 should carry the same weight as level 101,we should see levels treated more like aging rather than some xp number that in reality never has any relevance towards actual EXPERIENCE but instead just some numbers.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,781
    Hrimnir said:
    Wizardry said:
    I just have top say one thing because well i want the best game experience i can get.
    I don't like Raids,imo they are never necessary and will alienate a lot of players all the time.

    This is the same type of attitude which has lead us down the path we're at now with the industry.

    Nobody is forcing you to raid.  They've already said raiding will be around 5-10% of the games content.  So, basically you're just being petulant and selfish based on...? Jealousy? I don't know.  I mean i really don't get that mentality.  If you don't like doing something, don't do it.

    It's like saying that a grocery store shouldn't carry oreos cus you're gluten free and since you can't have them, nobody should be able to, and that having them will "alienate" players.  No, the only people who it will alienate are irrational people who operate on a me me me mindset 24/7
    No you don't get it and that  is the reason WHY we are where we are now with games and EVERY game is doing raiding,so your point of "where we are at now" is further proven wrong by YOUR own admittance.

    My point was also that you do not NEED it,there is NOTHING you can't do in a game that would need 24 players ,NOTHING.Any design or idea you want from a raid can be done with 6 players,so it becomes nothing more than some l33tist term or some bragging platform.

    Raiding does NOTHING to bring a guild together,you can bring players together with 6 man groups.I almost find it hilarious because in REALITY inside of groups MOST are acting as" individuals" anyhow so what's the difference?Unless you are trying to tell me each player is interacting with all 24 players?Not a chance ion hell but with a 5/6 man group you can most certainly have everyone interacting with each other.
    All raiding does is create a more cumbersome time consuming 6 man group all you have is 3-4 6 man groups.You can't even properly heal a 24 man group,nor can  you properly target 24 people,it is just a sloppier less organized form of 5/6 man grouping.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    edited March 2016
    Wizardry said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Wizardry said:
    I just have top say one thing because well i want the best game experience i can get.
    I don't like Raids,imo they are never necessary and will alienate a lot of players all the time.

    This is the same type of attitude which has lead us down the path we're at now with the industry.

    Nobody is forcing you to raid.  They've already said raiding will be around 5-10% of the games content.  So, basically you're just being petulant and selfish based on...? Jealousy? I don't know.  I mean i really don't get that mentality.  If you don't like doing something, don't do it.

    It's like saying that a grocery store shouldn't carry oreos cus you're gluten free and since you can't have them, nobody should be able to, and that having them will "alienate" players.  No, the only people who it will alienate are irrational people who operate on a me me me mindset 24/7
    No you don't get it and that  is the reason WHY we are where we are now with games and EVERY game is doing raiding,so your point of "where we are at now" is further proven wrong by YOUR own admittance.

    My point was also that you do not NEED it,there is NOTHING you can't do in a game that would need 24 players ,NOTHING.Any design or idea you want from a raid can be done with 6 players,so it becomes nothing more than some l33tist term or some bragging platform.

    Raiding does NOTHING to bring a guild together,you can bring players together with 6 man groups.I almost find it hilarious because in REALITY inside of groups MOST are acting as" individuals" anyhow so what's the difference?Unless you are trying to tell me each player is interacting with all 24 players?Not a chance ion hell but with a 5/6 man group you can most certainly have everyone interacting with each other.
    All raiding does is create a more cumbersome time consuming 6 man group all you have is 3-4 6 man groups.You can't even properly heal a 24 man group,nor can  you properly target 24 people,it is just a sloppier less organized form of 5/6 man grouping.



    Do you feel better?  If you want to make some less ludicrous and frankly hand waving emotional statements, than we can argue the actual merits of each idea.  But while you continue to spew nonsense, I'm not going to engage you in any meaningful manner, and instead will just point out the absurdity.

    Edit:  BTW, You don't need to have have 11 people on a football field per team either.  There is no possible justification for it, it adds nothing and it's only so that people can have elitist bragging.  The 22 people on the field don't interact with each other any more than if it were just 5 people per team.

    Edit 2: Your entire post shows just how little actual raiding experience you have.  Particularly at higher level raiding where people are having to figure out the fights themselves, not just reading a guide or watching a video.  To sit here and say that those 24 people aren't interacting with each other is quite literally the height of absurdity.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,190
    Things like this are what make this site frustrating.....The game is a couple years from release so why even bring this stuff up?...People are so driven by what is 2-3 years away on this site instead of focusing what is right now.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Things like this are what make this site frustrating.....The game is a couple years from release so why even bring this stuff up?...People are so driven by what is 2-3 years away on this site instead of focusing what is right now.
    What is right now? I don't really see anything worth discussing in beta or launched.


  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,305
    even though this is the main game i am looking forward to that is currently in development, i expect absolutely nothing. hopefully it turns into a great mmorpg with a healthy community but i certainly won't hold my breath.
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,305
    Wizardry said:
    Hrimnir said:
    Wizardry said:
    I just have top say one thing because well i want the best game experience i can get.
    I don't like Raids,imo they are never necessary and will alienate a lot of players all the time.

    This is the same type of attitude which has lead us down the path we're at now with the industry.

    Nobody is forcing you to raid.  They've already said raiding will be around 5-10% of the games content.  So, basically you're just being petulant and selfish based on...? Jealousy? I don't know.  I mean i really don't get that mentality.  If you don't like doing something, don't do it.

    It's like saying that a grocery store shouldn't carry oreos cus you're gluten free and since you can't have them, nobody should be able to, and that having them will "alienate" players.  No, the only people who it will alienate are irrational people who operate on a me me me mindset 24/7
    No you don't get it and that  is the reason WHY we are where we are now with games and EVERY game is doing raiding,so your point of "where we are at now" is further proven wrong by YOUR own admittance.

    My point was also that you do not NEED it,there is NOTHING you can't do in a game that would need 24 players ,NOTHING.Any design or idea you want from a raid can be done with 6 players,so it becomes nothing more than some l33tist term or some bragging platform.

    Raiding does NOTHING to bring a guild together,you can bring players together with 6 man groups.I almost find it hilarious because in REALITY inside of groups MOST are acting as" individuals" anyhow so what's the difference?Unless you are trying to tell me each player is interacting with all 24 players?Not a chance ion hell but with a 5/6 man group you can most certainly have everyone interacting with each other.
    All raiding does is create a more cumbersome time consuming 6 man group all you have is 3-4 6 man groups.You can't even properly heal a 24 man group,nor can  you properly target 24 people,it is just a sloppier less organized form of 5/6 man grouping.


    my main was a shaman back in the classic EQ days. i was usually the only shaman in the raid but sometimes there would be one or two others.

    i interacted with every single group, i had to buff every group. there was also no raid instancing when i played EQ and in my guild we usually had like 50-60 people on raids (sometimes more when we let other guilds join us)

    yeah its not as easy and efficient as running just one small group, thats what makes raiding more challenging.

    that said, i'm not a huge fan of raiding anymore myself. i like the idea of making small group content hard and rewarding just like raiding is.

    but raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.
  • tats27tats27 Member UncommonPosts: 95
    In conjunction with a creating more suspenseful situations, losing xp from dying creates a longer leveling phase, which coming from EQ and FFXI was a major part of the game.

    Like most, I hate being able to get to max level in a week; however, the leveling experience has to be rewarding AND challenging to justify the long grind.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    tats27 said:
    In conjunction with a creating more suspenseful situations, losing xp from dying creates a longer leveling phase, which coming from EQ and FFXI was a major part of the game.

    Like most, I hate being able to get to max level in a week; however, the leveling experience has to be rewarding AND challenging to justify the long grind.

    Hey, as R Kelly said, there aint nothin wrong, with a little bump n grind...

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,803
     
    raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.


    But it will be.  Brad has said it will be.  More to the point, if raiding wasn't the only way to get the best gear there would be no point including it in the game.  The sole purpose of raiding is to provide an ego-boost to a very specific demographic of players by setting up a progression path which favors them over the vast majority of players.  It's all about coddling that particular demographic so they can feel "leet".

    That demographic is comprised almost entirely of hopeless virgins who never leave their homes except when it's time to cash their welfare checks.  They live entirely in their games and their entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in their in-game "accomplishments". 

    That's why they love the raid grind.  They can play the game like a job because it's all they ever do.  They don't care if raiding isn't actually fun because they aren't in it for fun.  They are in it to prove that they are better than the common scrubs. 

    These people would never accept it if there was any other way to progress at the high end because the whole point of the raid grind is to slow or block the progression of normal people so the "hardcore" raiders can prove that they are "better" and thus cling to some tenuous sense of superiority.

    I haven't been following the official pantheon forums but you can bet that these people are crawling all over those forums.  Shouting down anyone who threatens them and trying to warp the game even more to their liking.

    I'm sorry if I'm being unkind here but this is the reality.  Those people are the reason we can never have a good grouping game which makes a reasonable compromise between <ultra-casual> and <hardcore> because the moment they get a whiff of something that might skew in their favor they dog pile on the game in development and push and push to send it to the far end of the bell curve where they live in their mothers basements.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,398
    tats27 said:

     however, the leveling experience has to be rewarding AND challenging to justify the long grind.
    Keep in mind that the "leveling experience" is not just the things the Devs put in the game for us to whack on. It's also time spent with friends (including new ones you make as you go). I have spent many evenings doing things that may look repetitious, but they actually were not because I was also enjoying hanging out with my buddies. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 488
    edited March 2016
     
    raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.


    But it will be.  Brad has said it will be.  More to the point, if raiding wasn't the only way to get the best gear there would be no point including it in the game.  The sole purpose of raiding is to provide an ego-boost to a very specific demographic of players by setting up a progression path which favors them over the vast majority of players.  It's all about coddling that particular demographic so they can feel "leet".

    That demographic is comprised almost entirely of hopeless virgins who never leave their homes except when it's time to cash their welfare checks.  They live entirely in their games and their entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in their in-game "accomplishments". 

    (snip)
    Don't judge. Actually, most raiders I've known had jobs and even some of them were military. I don't think ambition or ego are necessarily tied to how much time someone has to play a game or whether they live in their mother's basement. YOu'd be surprised how many basement neckbeard aren't raiders or don't even play well. It's personality more than anything else.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
     
    raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.


    But it will be.  Brad has said it will be.  More to the point, if raiding wasn't the only way to get the best gear there would be no point including it in the game.  The sole purpose of raiding is to provide an ego-boost to a very specific demographic of players by setting up a progression path which favors them over the vast majority of players.  It's all about coddling that particular demographic so they can feel "leet".

    That demographic is comprised almost entirely of hopeless virgins who never leave their homes except when it's time to cash their welfare checks.  They live entirely in their games and their entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in their in-game "accomplishments". 

    That's why they love the raid grind.  They can play the game like a job because it's all they ever do.  They don't care if raiding isn't actually fun because they aren't in it for fun.  They are in it to prove that they are better than the common scrubs. 

    These people would never accept it if there was any other way to progress at the high end because the whole point of the raid grind is to slow or block the progression of normal people so the "hardcore" raiders can prove that they are "better" and thus cling to some tenuous sense of superiority.

    I haven't been following the official pantheon forums but you can bet that these people are crawling all over those forums.  Shouting down anyone who threatens them and trying to warp the game even more to their liking.

    I'm sorry if I'm being unkind here but this is the reality.  Those people are the reason we can never have a good grouping game which makes a reasonable compromise between <ultra-casual> and <hardcore> because the moment they get a whiff of something that might skew in their favor they dog pile on the game in development and push and push to send it to the far end of the bell curve where they live in their mothers basements.

    This statement is beyond ridiculous, having raided since 1999, as a productive member of society, with other productive members of society.

    Raiding in general does take more time, but its never necessitated the levels of dedication that you claim above outside of possibly a certain emulator that has skewed your perception. I can tell you the above description describes a small subset of people who raid and is not at all representative of players who raided in EQ back in its heyday.


  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
     
    raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.


    But it will be.  Brad has said it will be.  More to the point, if raiding wasn't the only way to get the best gear there would be no point including it in the game.  The sole purpose of raiding is to provide an ego-boost to a very specific demographic of players by setting up a progression path which favors them over the vast majority of players.  It's all about coddling that particular demographic so they can feel "leet".

    That demographic is comprised almost entirely of hopeless virgins who never leave their homes except when it's time to cash their welfare checks.  They live entirely in their games and their entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in their in-game "accomplishments". 

    That's why they love the raid grind.  They can play the game like a job because it's all they ever do.  They don't care if raiding isn't actually fun because they aren't in it for fun.  They are in it to prove that they are better than the common scrubs. 

    These people would never accept it if there was any other way to progress at the high end because the whole point of the raid grind is to slow or block the progression of normal people so the "hardcore" raiders can prove that they are "better" and thus cling to some tenuous sense of superiority.

    I haven't been following the official pantheon forums but you can bet that these people are crawling all over those forums.  Shouting down anyone who threatens them and trying to warp the game even more to their liking.

    I'm sorry if I'm being unkind here but this is the reality.  Those people are the reason we can never have a good grouping game which makes a reasonable compromise between <ultra-casual> and <hardcore> because the moment they get a whiff of something that might skew in their favor they dog pile on the game in development and push and push to send it to the far end of the bell curve where they live in their mothers basements.


    The amount of bullshit in this post is overwhelming.

    People like you are literally the reason why we have faceroll easy mode solo quest hub MMOs.

    A small minority of raiders, typically the top 10-20% of raiders, are there for the "e-peen" aspects of raiding.  The rest of raiders are there because they enjoy tackling objectives with groups of friends. They enjoy working together, coordinating efforts, etc.  If you actually raided you would know how full of crap you are and how ridiculous of a statement that you made is.

    The absolutely hilarious part of this is that you don't even realize that the last statement you made, about how raiders supposedly "push and push" to send it to "the far end of the bell curve" is literally the exact OPPOSITE of what has actually happened.  It's actually the "ultra casuals" who have done exactly that (as far as pushing for their play style to be dominant) and that is exactly why were are in the state we are in the MMO genre.

    The only reality is the one you choose not to acknowledge.  Saying something repeatedly does not make it true.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,803
    Hrimnir said:

    The absolutely hilarious part of this is that you don't even realize that the last statement you made, about how raiders supposedly "push and push" to send it to "the far end of the bell curve" is literally the exact OPPOSITE of what has actually happened.  It's actually the "ultra casuals" who have done exactly that (as far as pushing for their play style to be dominant) and that is exactly why were are in the state we are in the MMO genre.

    No...actually both have happened.  The insane, no-life, hardcore raiders have pushed one way and the ultra-casuals have pushed the other way.  The reason the ultra-casuals are winning is because the "hardcore" demographic, while being extremely vocal and active on forums, is too small to support a game by itself.

    There is a middle road between solo play MMOs and MMOs that devolve into a god-awful multi-group raid grind but the "hardcore" people are the reason that middle road will never be taken.  And THAT is why the ultra-casuals are winning the war.

    I'll admit I'm a bit surprised that nobody jumped in here to claim that the reason they can play a game like a job is because they are an independently wealthy, international playboy.  That's the response I used to typically get from the "hardcore" folks.  I suppose people are a little more savvy about internet posing now.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,398
    What difference does it make if someone else plays a lot, or has better gear? How does that diminish my enjoyment of the game unless I allow it? All I need is good enough gear to be able to take on the content I am doing. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997
    Amathe said:
    What difference does it make if someone else plays a lot, or has better gear? How does that diminish my enjoyment of the game unless I allow it? All I need is good enough gear to be able to take on the content I am doing. 
    Rose Colored Glasses detected...
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,398
    Darksworm said:
    Amathe said:
    What difference does it make if someone else plays a lot, or has better gear? How does that diminish my enjoyment of the game unless I allow it? All I need is good enough gear to be able to take on the content I am doing. 
    Rose Colored Glasses detected...
    I don't know what you mean. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997

    Hrimnir said:

    The absolutely hilarious part of this is that you don't even realize that the last statement you made, about how raiders supposedly "push and push" to send it to "the far end of the bell curve" is literally the exact OPPOSITE of what has actually happened.  It's actually the "ultra casuals" who have done exactly that (as far as pushing for their play style to be dominant) and that is exactly why were are in the state we are in the MMO genre.

    No...actually both have happened.  The insane, no-life, hardcore raiders have pushed one way and the ultra-casuals have pushed the other way.  The reason the ultra-casuals are winning is because the "hardcore" demographic, while being extremely vocal and active on forums, is too small to support a game by itself.

    There is a middle road between solo play MMOs and MMOs that devolve into a god-awful multi-group raid grind but the "hardcore" people are the reason that middle road will never be taken.  And THAT is why the ultra-casuals are winning the war.

    I'll admit I'm a bit surprised that nobody jumped in here to claim that the reason they can play a game like a job is because they are an independently wealthy, international playboy.  That's the response I used to typically get from the "hardcore" folks.  I suppose people are a little more savvy about internet posing now.

    That's untrue.  There were 10 Man Raids in WoW to suit the more casual player base, but they complained that the gear from their 10 mans weren't as good as gear from 25 Mans.  Now there are Flex Raids.  There was LFR Raids but they complained that they were too hard, but they still wanted great rewards, so now the LFR has been nerfed into the ground in difficulty with rewards to match the effort, and they now complain that it isn't worth doing because the drops look terrible and have terrible stats.

    The problem is that the casuals want too much for too little effort, and the hard core players want their rewards to be exclusive to the difficult content.  That's the huge rift.

    The thing that everything revolves around in most of these MMORPGs, is items and achievements, because it's the only material way to display character advancement once you've gotten to end-game levels.

    A Player who had to go through organizing raids of 25-40 players over months to gear up doesn't, and shouldn't, want/have to sit there and see someone who does nothing but 5 mans pop up with gear that is anywhere near the calibre that he's wearing.

    Risk v. Reward is a thing.  Group content isn't and never will be as rewarding as raid content, and if it is (MoP LFR), then the community will make sure the raids or buffed or the drops are nerfed to restore that balance.

    I feel like raiders are demonized and casuals get away with this precisely because they are the majority.  They want too much for too little effort, and with very little time investment.  That's why you have the current crop of games.

    If you want something like OG EQ with ridiculous XP and Gear Grind and Penalties, etc. the people who are "above casual" will still best you in all of those ways the same way the "no lifers" shot ahead in games like Lineage II (for example).

    It's something that's not worth going through the trouble of trying to balance.  At some point, you have to cut your losses.  Either your game will be casual and turn off raiders for a number of reasons, or it will be hardcore and turn off casuals for a number of reason.

    Pantheon - at least what the developers are describing - is not going to be a super casual player's dream, and when you're playing 5 hours a week compared to my 20-30 hours a week...  Do you think I'll want anything to do with you after a couple of weeks when you're nothing but a useless bluebie who can't survive outside of lowbie areas?

    All this will do is preserve many of the issues in EQ's original system, while making level disparity a limiting factor (something that games like WoW have largely eliminated... but you see this issue in games like Lineage II).
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 997

     
    raids should be a part of this game i just hope it isn't the only way to get the best gear in the game.


    But it will be.  Brad has said it will be.  More to the point, if raiding wasn't the only way to get the best gear there would be no point including it in the game.  The sole purpose of raiding is to provide an ego-boost to a very specific demographic of players by setting up a progression path which favors them over the vast majority of players.  It's all about coddling that particular demographic so they can feel "leet".

    That demographic is comprised almost entirely of hopeless virgins who never leave their homes except when it's time to cash their welfare checks.  They live entirely in their games and their entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in their in-game "accomplishments". 

    That's why they love the raid grind.  They can play the game like a job because it's all they ever do.  They don't care if raiding isn't actually fun because they aren't in it for fun.  They are in it to prove that they are better than the common scrubs. 

    These people would never accept it if there was any other way to progress at the high end because the whole point of the raid grind is to slow or block the progression of normal people so the "hardcore" raiders can prove that they are "better" and thus cling to some tenuous sense of superiority.

    I haven't been following the official pantheon forums but you can bet that these people are crawling all over those forums.  Shouting down anyone who threatens them and trying to warp the game even more to their liking.

    I'm sorry if I'm being unkind here but this is the reality.  Those people are the reason we can never have a good grouping game which makes a reasonable compromise between <ultra-casual> and <hardcore> because the moment they get a whiff of something that might skew in their favor they dog pile on the game in development and push and push to send it to the far end of the bell curve where they live in their mothers basements.

    Raiding is about giving longevity to content.  It fuels the game in ways you are too blind and stupid to realize.  If a good drop drops in a dungeon, raiders may go there simply to min/max for raiding, when otherwise they may not feel it's worth the time and get the next best thing cause it's "good enough."  Additionally, raid content gives structure to the game and content additions.  It gives it longevity.

    Learning encounters.  Getting them on farm.  Farming gear for your raid team.  This all takes time.

    Without raiding, this game would be dead in the water.

    Why do you think virtually every PvE game has a raid-based end-game?  Cause a certain small demographic they could afford to ignore want it?

    Okay, believe that ;-)
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,803
    Darksworm said:

    Why do you think virtually every PvE game has a raid-based end-game?  Cause a certain small demographic they could afford to ignore want it?

    Okay, believe that ;-)

    And in the post-WoW era what has happened to virtually every PvE game with a raid-based end-game?

    Hmm?

    The game launches.  Lots of people jump in to try it out.  Then, in a relatively short time (less then a year generally) the population begins to drop off. 

    Let us speculate why this might happen.  You offer people a choice to "raid or quit" at the end-game.  People reach the end-game and start quitting.  Hmm.....is it possible there might be some connection?  No...surely not.  It couldn't be!

    The fact is that the vast majority of people simply do not like that crap.  Don't want to do it.  And won't do it for very long.  And that trend is only growing as people who once were willing to do it have grown sick and tired of it.

    You can call me blind and stupid all you want for pointing out the facts but that isn't going to change reality.  Pantheon is setting itself up to prove this all yet again.  But the terrible thing for Pantheon is that it's going to start out with a lower than normal population to begin with because the early game will have less mass appeal.  And almost certainly their raiding end-game will be even more onerous than usual.

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,354
    I prefer small group content that takes 100 years to max my toon to committing raid schedules and organised raiding. I don't mind if a game has raids as end game content as long as there is an alternative path to progress, even if it was longer and more grindy than the raiding path.

    I also hope it will take a long time before anyone reaches the so-called end-game in Pantheon. Let this game not be one of those one month wonders with few days of leveling and clearing the whole content in following three weeks.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    I think some people are missing the fact that Pantheon is being designed primarily for group content, NOT for the casual solo content, nor for the hardcore raid content. While players will be capable of doing some solo, and some raiding, that isn't the main focus.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 6,398
    @darksworm seems to believe that the point of these games is to raid, and those of us who may choose not to raid, or who don't have time in our schedules for it, are just here to keep the lights on for the others. It's perfectly fine if he believes that. I have no quarrel. These are fantasy role playing games, and that evidently is his fantasy for the role in the game he imagines he occupies. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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