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Pantheon early expectations

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Raidan_EQ said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    I will be posting much on this topic as I feel strongly about it and no one here has given one good reason why its worth keeping. Other than the same mantra that it adds risk and fear. Risk and fear can be added other ways without adding grind. Adding grind to a game for the sake of grind is again, dumb and lazy.
    I gave plenty of reasoning/rebuttal - you ignored it all.  What else is a death penalty suppose to add other than risk or fear?  Should you feel elated?  Excited?  Satisfied?  If a death in a game provokes risk and fear, then it's done it's job.  Having meaningless debuffs that can be easily cured does neither.  Mobs will still be zerged as their is no fear of permanently player time loss.  And again, "time" is the only finite resource, which is why exp loss exponentially increases the risk and fear. 
    Your responses highlight one thing you see EQ and only EQ... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 229
    heerobya said:
    Don't understand why they don't use a "down" system.
    *Snip*

    Some good thoughts in your post; however, I'd be worried of the abuse of guilds from having that system.  The res from the "downed" state would need to come with significant penalties, moreso than you even listed to avoid zerg (and other) tactics.  Make it similar to EQ res effects where you're worthless with 1 in all stats and can't move for 5-10 minutes.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Distopia said:
    Raidan_EQ said:

    Debuffs on death as a penalty would be nothing more than a nuisance if they could be immediately cured through class interdependency. 

    If I had a magic debuff that could be dispelled by a wizard/enchanter, I would be begging either class if I wasn't grouped with one.  /shout Are there any wizards than can cure mana burn around, will to donate?.  If I were grouped with one, and they could simply cast a spell to remove the penalty, then it isn't one at all. 

    And, if you're saying that even with removal of the penalty there's a 10-15 minute res effects type debuff still, then you're encroaching on tedium/nuisance for the sake of change.  And you're trading one penalty that effects a player's time for another, with the exception that you're trying to remove what you call the "Grind" by trying to regain experience and inserting another system that just allows you to /afk until the effects wear off instead of play.

    And, if you couldn't find a wizard/enchanter, you'd be wasting more time than you would have by just fighting and trying to regain your experience.  Because if the debuff was truly a penalty, it would need to be a debuff to stats of greater than 15-20%, and someone wouldn't want to continue fighting unless it was gone.

    And, if you say the penalty is only a 1% reduction (even a stackable 1%), then it's pointless and serves no purpose and you may as well not have any death penalty at all.

    Err debuffs work in combination with treks, respawn, weapon/gear damage, etc.. it all ties into the penalty for death, these are game-play systems, XP loss is not, it's systematic punishment, that only results in more grind, that's it. It adds nothing to the game, nor interdependency. It's fake longevity that adds nothing of real value to gameplay. 

    It's not a deal breaker for me, but it certainly isn't an interesting mechanic. 



    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    danwest58 said:
    kridak said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    30 min into the stream and I am loving what I am seeing. I think you may have taken wanting a EQ throwback to literally. IMO things like losing EXP on death is not needed any more. Just stops people from taking risks and sometimes breaks up teams before they can learn each other styles of play but I can deal with it. As far as the graphics, I would play it as it stands but I would not get upset if they got an upgrade. For Alpha state, I have no clue why people are upset. Going to watch the rest and may post more thoughts. 

    Losing xp is exactly what the majority want.  We want to know we need to be careful and not chew off more than we can handle.

    To many games now have little to no repercussions for dying.  

    I have seen all the other brilliant ideas and no thanks for me...i want to know that if i die i will be penalized...it makes you try and get better as a player and make more informed decisions about who or what you are attacking..  Too many games just let you zerg content over and over with no real penalty for dying.

    Oh here go repair your gear...slap on hand.....you should not have died you bad boy...

    Eq actually made me think..shit do i really wanna try and kill this?  Nowadays just run in and try...nothing to lose if you die.

    Screw that.




    I hate to break it to you.  But NO harsh death penalties did not make you be a better player.  I met so many players in UO and FFXI that had harsh death penalties and they never learned.  Most quit.  Harsh death penalties are wanting by a handful of people on this forum.  Just like LFR is wanting by a handful of people on the WOW forum.  Yet why has WOW been bleeding subs?  Thats right because tools like LFR yet Developers think that is what the majority want.  Yet of the 10 or so friends that where on the Pantheon stream that got me into it, not 1 of them posted on the Pantheon forums or here.  Guess what they just voted with their wallets.  

    There is a huge disconnect between what Forum goers like me want and what people like my wife wants who has posted on any forum a whole 10 times, And that was to jump into a conversation she wanted to be a part of or my 2 best gaming friends who only posted on MMO Technical help for that game forum.  Most people dont post on a forum to give their opinions.  They just will or will not spend their money.

    Now in the defense of Pantheon.  The game should do what it wants because its what the developers love and what they feel passionate about they should TRY To do.  It does not mean they will be successful but there is no reason to stop them.  Right now if my group of friends is not interested either am I.  I have the right to say that.  
    WoW is bleeding subs because it's an 11 year old game that is receiving fewer and fewer updates while trying to charge as much or more than ever. 

    Back when every game had a harsh death WoW was like a breath of fresh air.  Now that no game has a harsh death penalty there is almost certainly room for at least one game with some oldschool harshness.  Not everyone liking a feature is just fine.  Trying to create games that appeal to everyone has lead to 10 years of stagnation. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    If a debuff was truly on par with experience loss from a death, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just think getting a cleric to your corpse is much more problematic than simply seeking out a player that can dispel a debuff. As Raiden spoke of multiple times, it all comes down to time. Time spent can make an item feel valuable or, in the case of time lost, add tension to combat. There is not much else you can do design-wise to create those feelings. There are other ways to address the time factor, but I just don't see a change in death penalty as necessary if they are essentially doing the same thing.

    As I spoke of earlier, the thing about losing experience is that it was meant to be the greatest challenge when you still had a lot of xp and levels to achieve. It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience, it was a mechanic of learning and was meant to eventually be mitigated at higher levels by class interdependence (much like travel was by group teleports).

    Perhaps a resurrection spell shouldn't completely negate death. I personally wouldn't be against it capping at 75 or even 50% xp restoration, but like I already pointed out, getting a cleric to your corpse can, at times, take as long as it would to earn your experience back. That and it was meant to be a social challenge encouraging players to work together.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    I

    . It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience,

    That's where I'd say you were wrong...at least IMO, as that is the penalty in a nutshell (more grind), you have to regrind the XP you've previously earned, so it doubles the time it takes to achieve said XP. That's the very definition of grind as far as games go. 

    Any penalty is going to teach you something, yet there are penalties that add depth to game-play as well as interactivity between players, then there are penalties that essentially add nothing at all but tedium on an individual player level. I'd say XP loss falls closer to the latter than the former.

    Death penalties can be deeply ingrained into the fabric of a game, promoting different play-styles outside of combat, creating stronger community relation. Which is the chief overall goal here. What's really more important to an MMORPG; systematic punishment, or communal reliance? Under the premise of XP loss, the only promotion of grouping and socialization is in not dying. That's it, that's the extent of your worry. It's the extent of player reliance. 

    To argue in anyway that it promotes more socialization than the methods laid out here by others, is disingenuous IMO. JUst as acting as though it's harsher, so it's better at teaching a lesson would be. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    I

    . It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience,

    That's where I'd say you were wrong...at least IMO, as that is the penalty in a nutshell (more grind), you have to regrind the XP you've previously earned, so it doubles the time it takes to achieve said XP. That's the very definition of grind as far as games go. 
    That wouldn't fall into the perpetual grind category (please, just stop and read before objecting). While grouping at max level, getting a rez became the norm. At that point, there were new challenges introduced (like harder content) rather than merely worrying about restoring lost experience. So... clearly they did not intend for it to be a shallow way to keep a player grinding forever.

    Not that there weren't plenty of ways to encourage players to continue playing. The addition of levels, Alternate advancement, new content, etc. However, down the line, death basically dropped off this list unless you were playing alone, far away from civilization. Even then, at cap it didn't matter because, unless you were horrible, you gained more experience than lost.


  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 229

    @Lokero

    You raise a good point, and, if you look at my original posts in this thread, you'll see that I argued that people are remembering EQ's death penalty incorrectly, and it wasn't as harsh as people are claiming and that it was trivialized as you say at max level by cleric resses.  So, the penalty really is only for the journey from 1 to 50.  However, the reason why this is important is people did "learn" their class better due to those penalties from 1-50.  And, once you hit max level, players were more skilled and knowledgeable of their classes, and you could take on more challenges without fear of constant exp loss due to having high level cleric resses.  Once you hit max, or are on alts, most everyone knows a cleric friend or guildie that could provide the res.

    But, to Dullahan's point, the reason I still vote for exp loss versus debuffs is there's no debuff system that has been implemented or that has been proposed in this thread that can replicate the factor of lost "time."  And yes, losing time sucks, and I didn't like it either, but no system had made me respect/fear death more.   And as a result, that fear/respect of death made me (and others) a better player. 

    And, again, the time loss is really for the first journey from 1-50, after that, if you're socializing at all, those who don't like the death penalty should be satisfied by cleric (and I'm sure other classes similar to VG) being able to res.

    But like Dullahan, if you or others could propose a system that could replicate that, or make it even more difficult, I wouldn't be opposed to positive change.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    I

    . It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience,

    That's where I'd say you were wrong...at least IMO, as that is the penalty in a nutshell (more grind), you have to regrind the XP you've previously earned, so it doubles the time it takes to achieve said XP. That's the very definition of grind as far as games go. 
    That wouldn't fall into the perpetual grind category (please, just stop and read before objecting). While grouping at max level, getting a rez became the norm. At that point, there were new challenges introduced (like harder content) rather than merely worrying about restoring lost experience. So... clearly they did not intend for it to be a shallow way to keep a player grinding forever.

    Not that there weren't plenty of ways to encourage players to continue playing. The addition of levels, Alternate advancement, new content, etc. However, down the line, death basically dropped off this list unless you were playing alone, far away from civilization. Even then, at cap it didn't matter because, unless you were horrible, you gained more experience than lost.
    I didn't say it keeps people grinding forever, I'm aware of that, I'm saying the penalty itself is more grind. That's the result of death in a nutshell, tedium. WHich really only serves as an artificial sense of longevity in the end. I honestly didn't take your use of "perpetual" in a literal sense, rather more so exaggeration. IF that's the case I'll apologize for saying you're wrong. Yet I'll still stand by my initial argument in regard to the benefits of one system over the other.

    IN the end like I said before I can live with XP loss, I just don't consider it a system with much thought put into it. IF they're using it because it's easy and requires less work I can understand that. They're a small team. On the other hand if they're simply going with it because it's like EQ, I think they could do better.


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Raidan_EQ said:


    But like Dullahan, if you or others could propose a system that could replicate that, or make it even more difficult, I wouldn't be opposed to positive change.

    IS grind difficult? Gaining back lost XP is not difficulty. Difficulty is what comes before dying.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Distopia said:
    Raidan_EQ said:


    But like Dullahan, if you or others could propose a system that could replicate that, or make it even more difficult, I wouldn't be opposed to positive change.

    IS grind difficult? Gaining back lost XP is not difficulty. Difficulty is what comes before dying.
    And to that I say, where is the difficulty if you have nothing to lose? What, the challenge of learning an encounter, how to properly use an ability, when to use said ability, where to go to find something you need? Those forms of difficulty are so much easier to circumvent than time. Next you'll suggest you increase those forms of difficulty further, which always leads to changing the game from one about strategy and cooperative play to one about personal reflexes, memorizing patterns or pushing buttons faster. Go ahead and go there though, I'll have this quote ready when we arrive.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Raidan_EQ said:


    But like Dullahan, if you or others could propose a system that could replicate that, or make it even more difficult, I wouldn't be opposed to positive change.

    IS grind difficult? Gaining back lost XP is not difficulty. Difficulty is what comes before dying.
    And to that I say, where is the difficulty if you have nothing to lose? What, the challenge of learning an encounter, how to properly use an ability, when to use said ability, where to go to find something you need? Those forms of difficulty are so much easier to circumvent than time. Next you'll suggest you increase those forms of difficulty further, which always leads to changing the game from one about strategy and cooperative play to one about personal reflexes, memorizing patterns or pushing buttons faster. Go ahead and go there though, I'll have this quote ready when we arrive.
    Who said anything about losing nothing? Or not losing time? Stiff death penalties can result in the loss of items, Gear, stats (which need to be healed... which costs time)... 

    Have you actually read the things people are suggesting, or do you just nope it all outright?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    edited March 2016
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Raidan_EQ said:


    But like Dullahan, if you or others could propose a system that could replicate that, or make it even more difficult, I wouldn't be opposed to positive change.

    IS grind difficult? Gaining back lost XP is not difficulty. Difficulty is what comes before dying.
    And to that I say, where is the difficulty if you have nothing to lose? What, the challenge of learning an encounter, how to properly use an ability, when to use said ability, where to go to find something you need? Those forms of difficulty are so much easier to circumvent than time. Next you'll suggest you increase those forms of difficulty further, which always leads to changing the game from one about strategy and cooperative play to one about personal reflexes, memorizing patterns or pushing buttons faster. Go ahead and go there though, I'll have this quote ready when we arrive.
    Who said anything about losing nothing? Or not losing time? Stiff death penalties can result in the loss of items, Gear, stats (which need to be healed... which costs time)... 

    Have you actually read the things people are suggesting, or do you just nope it all outright?
    Considering I've addressed just about every single suggestion specifically, I think the real question is do you actually read what I write or just nope it outright?

    I think its logical to assume if you're so against experience loss, you must have a problem with a loss of time mechanic. I've already said we could exchange one loss of time mechanic for another, but what is the point. So, if there is any logic in what you're saying and you aren't arguing just to argue, you must be opposed to time-loss mechanics. As such, the assumption that you want to replace it with "difficulty before dying" rather than loss of time is justified.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:

    Considering I've addressed just about every single suggestion specifically, I think the real question is do you actually read what I write or just nope it outright?

    I think its logical to assume if you're so against experience loss, you must have a problem with a loss of time mechanic. I've already said we could exchange one loss of time mechanic for another, but what is the point. So, if there is any logic in what you're saying and you aren't arguing just to argue, you must be opposed to time-loss mechanics. As such, the assumption that you want to replace it with "difficulty before dying" rather than loss of time is justified.
    Loss of time and loss of progress are two different things. That aside it's not the loss in this that bothers me at all, it's that there is no actual benefit to the system what so ever. Hence why I said I can live with it, yet find it to add nothing of worth to the experience. Thsi is where my question comes into play as you'd know this if you read my initial suggestions, they contained plenty of loss, yet loss that benefits the actual communal as well as other aspects of the game. Item loss benefits commerce, it benefits the need to stay alive, it benefits the need to gain wealth, Yet it doesn't erase past deeds. 

    Wounds create downtime, extended social healing (think SWG's doctors & Dancers) creates down time with other players, it adds utility to classes other than combat ability. 

    There are plenty of ways to add stiff penalty yet benefit the rest of the game. 

    My reaction to XP loss isn't Oh noo! that's too harsh, it's woohoo:( in a very sarcastic myopic voice.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:

    Considering I've addressed just about every single suggestion specifically, I think the real question is do you actually read what I write or just nope it outright?

    I think its logical to assume if you're so against experience loss, you must have a problem with a loss of time mechanic. I've already said we could exchange one loss of time mechanic for another, but what is the point. So, if there is any logic in what you're saying and you aren't arguing just to argue, you must be opposed to time-loss mechanics. As such, the assumption that you want to replace it with "difficulty before dying" rather than loss of time is justified.
    Loss of time and loss of progress are two different things.
    No, they're not. Progress takes time, if you're losing progress, you're losing time. If you lose time, you're losing potential progress.
    That aside it's not the loss in this that bothers me at all, it's that there is no actual benefit to the system what so ever.
    Except for the dozen or so things that have been expounded upon here in no small detail. Reread it or don't, but I won't be spending any more time expounding on it for your sake.


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:

    Considering I've addressed just about every single suggestion specifically, I think the real question is do you actually read what I write or just nope it outright?

    I think its logical to assume if you're so against experience loss, you must have a problem with a loss of time mechanic. I've already said we could exchange one loss of time mechanic for another, but what is the point. So, if there is any logic in what you're saying and you aren't arguing just to argue, you must be opposed to time-loss mechanics. As such, the assumption that you want to replace it with "difficulty before dying" rather than loss of time is justified.
    Loss of time and loss of progress are two different things.
    No, they're not. Progress takes time, if you're losing progress, you're losing time. If you lose time, you're losing potential progress.
    That aside it's not the loss in this that bothers me at all, it's that there is no actual benefit to the system what so ever.
    Except for the dozen or so things that have been expounded upon here in no small detail. Reread it or don't, but I won't be spending any more time expounding on it for your sake.
    Please reply to the body of my posts that have explained these points... Otherwise you're wasting my time.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Distopia said:

    Loss of time and loss of progress are two different things.
    No, they're not. Progress takes time, if you're losing progress, you're losing time. If you lose time, you're losing potential progress.
    That aside it's not the loss in this that bothers me at all, it's that there is no actual benefit to the system what so ever.
    Except for the dozen or so things that have been expounded upon here in no small detail. Reread it or don't, but I won't be spending any more time expounding on it for your sake.
    Please reply to the body of my posts that have explained these points... Otherwise you're wasting my time.
    I'll make that a bit easier..

    "Any penalty is going to teach you something, yet there are penalties that add depth to game-play as well as interactivity between players, then there are penalties that essentially add nothing at all but tedium on an individual player level. I'd say XP loss falls closer to the latter than the former."

    "Death penalties can be deeply ingrained into the fabric of a game, promoting different play-styles outside of combat, creating stronger community relation. Which is the chief overall goal here. What's really more important to an MMORPG; systematic punishment, or communal reliance? Under the premise of XP loss, the only promotion of grouping and socialization is in not dying. That's it, that's the extent of your worry. It's the extent of player reliance."


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,855
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    If a debuff was truly on par with experience loss from a death, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just think getting a cleric to your corpse is much more problematic than simply seeking out a player that can dispel a debuff. As Raiden spoke of multiple times, it all comes down to time. Time spent can make an item feel valuable or, in the case of time lost, add tension to combat. There is not much else you can do design-wise to create those feelings. There are other ways to address the time factor, but I just don't see a change in death penalty as necessary if they are essentially doing the same thing.

    As I spoke of earlier, the thing about losing experience is that it was meant to be the greatest challenge when you still had a lot of xp and levels to achieve. It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience, it was a mechanic of learning and was meant to eventually be mitigated at higher levels by class interdependence (much like travel was by group teleports).

    Perhaps a resurrection spell shouldn't completely negate death. I personally wouldn't be against it capping at 75 or even 50% xp restoration, but like I already pointed out, getting a cleric to your corpse can, at times, take as long as it would to earn your experience back. That and it was meant to be a social challenge encouraging players to work together.
    I am truly thinking of the game and the good of it. I want to see as many people as needed to play this game to keep content rolling. The big problem with exp loss is low levels you have so few tools to deal with it that most of the negative effects really only land on new people to the game leveling for the first time. By the time you get to endgame you dont care any more. You have people you can rely on to get fast exp to recover. Reses from friends and guildies. Ports to get you back to your corpse and Necros to summon your corpse. 

    So dinging people learning the game now days wont have the effect it did 17 years ago where the only real quality option was EQ1. EXP loss does only one thing. Makes people think twice about taking risks. Adds a fear element. Does it do anything else for the new gamer? Does it add depth to their class? Does it bring people together? Does it bring interdependence?  Do it add to the economy? A debuff system on death, if done so its impacting can bring these things and this is just one way to add risk. Other layers can be added. So you can have risk of death thats impacting and add more than just a grind. 

    Exp loss does add fear of death but thats all it does and nothing more. I am sure the devs could put their minds together and come up with something better than this. I expect more as many other gamers feel the same way. Its time to bring back the old and add to it. Not just a pure recycle. Gamers expect more or they should.



  • iGumballStariGumballStar Member UncommonPosts: 106
    edited March 2016
    This is just another title trying to ''re-kindle'' the passion of the past. The audience will be extremly niche and it will by no means cater to the younger gaming audience that is more into the streamlined experience.

    People love to be hipsters trying to prove that everything big studios develope is garbage and nothing but cloning. Others love to point out how ''watered down'' MMORPG's is what is ruining the genre and we should go back to ''real MMO's''. Well, this won't happen sadly. Wildstar was a complete flop due to the game catering to the hardcore crowd. Sure, the game itself has alot of flaws, but in my opinion, the game was polished enough to hold people's interest if it wasn't so focused on ''hard core'' mode.

    The future of MMO's is in something new. I don't think catering to the ''old MMO players'' by making nostalgia titles will work. Not disregarding the developers of this game or anything, but this is the reality of the industry.

    Many people will hype this up due to:
    1. Indie developers and people like to support them since they always seem more trustworthy than let's say Ubisoft.
    2. Nostalgic gameplay which brings back memeories of past MMO's.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think the game looks bad by any means. I also do realize it is catering to the old school crowd. It is just that I don't have much faith in that specific crowd. Old school players usually talk abot nostalgia all the time, but when nostlagic titles come out, they end up abondoning them nontheless due to ''ehh, this is not what I thought it would be'' and ''man, this isn't like before''.
  • RallydRallyd Member UncommonPosts: 95
    Nanfoodle said:
    Dullahan said:
    Lokero said:

    Since most of this stuff seems to revolve around people wanting EQ's systems. I guess my question for Raidan(this isn't all directed at Raidan in particular) or whoever would be:

    Why are people okay with clerics being able to rez back all your lost exp. instantly, but not okay with people being able to cure a debuff?

    Why are curable debuffs so bad?  I mean you'd still have to find someone to cure it and then run back to wherever.  It seems to me that'd be worse than just having a cleric instantly port you back to your body.  I don't see any real difference between the two?  I haven't seen anyone shouting out against resurrection, which pretty much removes the death penalty entirely in EQ and instantly teleports you back to your death spot.

    It seems like people in favor of harsh death are perfectly okay with being able to completely and totally negate death through clerics, but not okay with lesser penalties that can't be negated, for instance.  If everyone is so hard up for punishment, why isn't that camp begging for no experience rezzing?

    I'm not promoting either of those particular systems, mind you -- just asking since there's so much overlap and contradiction.
    If a debuff was truly on par with experience loss from a death, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I just think getting a cleric to your corpse is much more problematic than simply seeking out a player that can dispel a debuff. As Raiden spoke of multiple times, it all comes down to time. Time spent can make an item feel valuable or, in the case of time lost, add tension to combat. There is not much else you can do design-wise to create those feelings. There are other ways to address the time factor, but I just don't see a change in death penalty as necessary if they are essentially doing the same thing.

    As I spoke of earlier, the thing about losing experience is that it was meant to be the greatest challenge when you still had a lot of xp and levels to achieve. It wasn't just a shallow mechanic to keep the player perpetually grinding experience, it was a mechanic of learning and was meant to eventually be mitigated at higher levels by class interdependence (much like travel was by group teleports).

    Perhaps a resurrection spell shouldn't completely negate death. I personally wouldn't be against it capping at 75 or even 50% xp restoration, but like I already pointed out, getting a cleric to your corpse can, at times, take as long as it would to earn your experience back. That and it was meant to be a social challenge encouraging players to work together.
    I am truly thinking of the game and the good of it. I want to see as many people as needed to play this game to keep content rolling. The big problem with exp loss is low levels you have so few tools to deal with it that most of the negative effects really only land on new people to the game leveling for the first time. By the time you get to endgame you dont care any more. You have people you can rely on to get fast exp to recover. Reses from friends and guildies. Ports to get you back to your corpse and Necros to summon your corpse. 

    So dinging people learning the game now days wont have the effect it did 17 years ago where the only real quality option was EQ1. EXP loss does only one thing. Makes people think twice about taking risks. Adds a fear element. Does it do anything else for the new gamer? Does it add depth to their class? Does it bring people together? Does it bring interdependence?  Do it add to the economy? A debuff system on death, if done so its impacting can bring these things and this is just one way to add risk. Other layers can be added. So you can have risk of death thats impacting and add more than just a grind. 

    Exp loss does add fear of death but thats all it does and nothing more. I am sure the devs could put their minds together and come up with something better than this. I expect more as many other gamers feel the same way. Its time to bring back the old and add to it. Not just a pure recycle. Gamers expect more or they should.
    Debuff on death, so you mean I just have to afk for 5 minutes and take a piss while my debuff wears off, then I can continue?  Sounds like a real tough death penalty to me... cough not.

    I can see where you're going with your theory, and while you may be correct that there MAY be some system that is better for punishing players time-wise than exp loss, you haven't suggested a good way yet, and neither has anyone else, until then, exp loss stays.

    Also, on the note of lower level players, I just want to throw out there that the amount of exp you lost sub level 20 was so little that you could make it back faster than you could find a rez.  It was a deterrent to zerging and slack-brained play, but not really a sting.

    The biggest component of the death penalty of Everquest was really the corpse.  Without a corpse run there can be nothing, because if all I'm risking is a little exp for venturing into that dungeon to try to get some phats, then I'm not risking anything but a little time.  If I'm risking my corpse, that's an entirely different matter, because if I cant find someone to help me get it out, I could be in for some real trouble.
  • wandericawanderica Member UncommonPosts: 365
    You know, after thinking on this a little more and reading a few more replies, I might borrow from SWG a bit.  For those that never played, your max HAM (Health, Action, Mind) would decrease everytime you died.  In my case, I ventured too close to the saarlac pit once and all 3 bars were almost totally black.  One then had to head over to the Med Center and let a doctor or medic heal those wounds.  Doctors could do this very quickly, while medics were quite a bit slower.

    Obviously, the same system wouldn't work in Pantheon simply because crafting in SWG is what supported this system, but if the goal is to promote interdependency and socialization, then why not use the idea?  It would also give those healing classes a way to work for tips in a way that is needed while keeping death meaningful.  Or, you know, we can stick with the same old tired XP loss system. 

    Whether XP loss is in or not won't keep me from playing, but Pantheon is not intended to be very innovative in the first place.  I think this is one area where we could effect a change that might move the genre forward for once.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,519
    This is just another title trying to ''re-kindle'' the passion of the past. The audience will be extremly niche and it will by no means cater to the younger gaming audience that is more into the streamlined experience.

    People love to be hipsters trying to prove that everything big studios develope is garbage and nothing but cloning. Others love to point out how ''watered down'' MMORPG's is what is ruining the genre and we should go back to ''real MMO's''. Well, this won't happen sadly. Wildstar was a complete flop due to the game catering to the hardcore crowd. Sure, the game itself has alot of flaws, but in my opinion, the game was polished enough to hold people's interest if it wasn't so focused on ''hard core'' mode.

    The future of MMO's is in something new. I don't think catering to the ''old MMO players'' by making nostalgia titles will work. Not disregarding the developers of this game or anything, but this is the reality of the industry.

    Many people will hype this up due to:
    1. Indie developers and people like to support them since they always seem more trustworthy than let's say Ubisoft.
    2. Nostalgic gameplay which brings back memeories of past MMO's.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think the game looks bad by any means. I also do realize it is catering to the old school crowd. It is just that I don't have much faith in that specific crowd. Old school players usually talk abot nostalgia all the time, but when nostlagic titles come out, they end up abondoning them nontheless due to ''ehh, this is not what I thought it would be'' and ''man, this isn't like before''.
    Nostalgia titles such as what? What were these titles, that players abandoned? If you're talking about Wildstar, I'm going to have to disagree, as it didn't even successfully emulate classic WoW, let alone first gen MMOs. The last game even close to a classic MMO was Vanguard, and despite the fact that we knew the game was unfinished and full of bugs, over a quarter of a million people pre-ordered. That seems to suggest a game such as Pantheon won't be as "extremely niche" as you think.

    I don't think the people are being counter-culture by pointing out that big studios are developing easier, streamlined games and targeting younger and more casual audiences. Its not hipster if its true.


  • Curt2013Curt2013 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    I would prefer loss of xp over a debuff personally. Also make it sting, give us some slow leveling with a nice bit of xp lost if you die imo makes the world that much more exciting and intense.

    Really sick of games were lvling is fast and its just a race to endgame or even worse slow lvling with faceroll mobs and quest hubs.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    edited March 2016
    Distopia said:
    Dullahan said:
    Distopia said:

    Considering I've addressed just about every single suggestion specifically, I think the real question is do you actually read what I write or just nope it outright?

    I think its logical to assume if you're so against experience loss, you must have a problem with a loss of time mechanic. I've already said we could exchange one loss of time mechanic for another, but what is the point. So, if there is any logic in what you're saying and you aren't arguing just to argue, you must be opposed to time-loss mechanics. As such, the assumption that you want to replace it with "difficulty before dying" rather than loss of time is justified.
    Loss of time and loss of progress are two different things. That aside it's not the loss in this that bothers me at all, it's that there is no actual benefit to the system what so ever. Hence why I said I can live with it, yet find it to add nothing of worth to the experience. Thsi is where my question comes into play as you'd know this if you read my initial suggestions, they contained plenty of loss, yet loss that benefits the actual communal as well as other aspects of the game. Item loss benefits commerce, it benefits the need to stay alive, it benefits the need to gain wealth, Yet it doesn't erase past deeds. 

    Wounds create downtime, extended social healing (think SWG's doctors & Dancers) creates down time with other players, it adds utility to classes other than combat ability. 

    There are plenty of ways to add stiff penalty yet benefit the rest of the game. 

    My reaction to XP loss isn't Oh noo! that's too harsh, it's woohoo:( in a very sarcastic myopic voice.
    The problem is loss of progress is loss of time.  If you lose XP and spend time regaining it, you've lost time.  If you lose an item, and have to spend time farming plat to rebuy it, or to recamp the item, you've spent time regaining it.  Functionally they are the same, you're just adding a couple steps in between to make it appear to be a more complicated system.

    Where it comes down to is people can mentally deal with XP loss, but item loss in a PVE MMO is a non starter for most people.  It's part of the main reason why PVP FFA full loot rights type of games have absolutely shit numbers of players.  People in general are not keen on losing items.

    Item loss is time loss.  And while i understand your point, it really is going to be a non starter for a PVE mmo.  It's really just not going to happen.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • fs23otmfs23otm Member UncommonPosts: 503
    edited March 2016
    On XP Loss:

    I love the way the game is going. Please hold true to your vision... and don't let the masses influence the design. 

    You will get a lot of people that think that way...
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