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Pantheon early expectations

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  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,803
    heerobya said:
    Hrimnir said:

    So to be more clear, raiding, soloing, etc, absolutely should exist, and should be a viable path to advancement.  However given that the focus of this game is grouping, it should not be the primary or the most efficient form of advancement.

    So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement?  If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?

    I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping?  Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?

    Raiding is only at "end-game" because of the inefficiencies created by linear statistical progression - leveling up systems.

    Like, if you have 50 levels in your game, the general group size is 5 players, you can't put a raid at level 30 with like 10-20 players as a part of the level up process, participation would be WAY too low to be effective. Ya know?

    Sure, but that doesn't really answer the question I put forth.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    heerobya said:

    So you would be ok with it if small group content was the most efficient method to gain high end advancement?  If the "end-game" progression was primarily centered around small groups and multi-group raids were actually a little less efficient way to get that high end equipment?

    I mean, if the focus of this game is grouping then shouldn't the focus of the game always be grouping?  Not just while you are leveling up but at the end-game too?

    Raiding is only at "end-game" because of the inefficiencies created by linear statistical progression - leveling up systems.

    Like, if you have 50 levels in your game, the general group size is 5 players, you can't put a raid at level 30 with like 10-20 players as a part of the level up process, participation would be WAY too low to be effective. Ya know?
    Sure, but that doesn't really answer the question I put forth.
    I think having progression at the small group level at "end game" is important. 

    I think the whole solo leads to small group leads to raid group thing is kind of stupid, IMO.

    I like the idea of small group content to level, small group content to end-game, small group content at end-game.

    A challenging 5-6 person dungeon or whatever can be just as difficult as a 20-40 person raid. The only thing more difficult is the organization of the larger group, and the coordination/control by the raid leaders, but there is no reason small group content can't be as challenging in terms of technical game play.

    If anything small group can be MORE challenging because each player gains more responsibility in a smaller group. Each loss/death in the group is felt more clearly.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,127
    Nanfoodle said:
    danwest58 said:
    Pratt2112 said:
    danwest58 said:
    Ardwulf said:
    Kiori001 said:
     
     
     
    Dismissing people's thoughts with go else where because there are other games out there, just shows how weak your footing is on the topic and is also rude. You have nothing to support your point of view other than a mantra it adds risk and fear. So in instead you dismiss people thinking your post has depth. It does not.
    I hear ya on the different forms of death penalty. I am ok with xp loss penalties but I am not against other ways of doing it. Not saying this should be considered but I play project gorgon on the side and they make death on bosses hurt if your not prepared. They do this with curses. Usually the curse gives you a type of bad debuff until you beat the boss or do a quest to lift it or a potion and so on.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    edited March 2016
    Has anyone else done a down/wounded system similar to what SWG used to have?

    Perfect compromise, IMO between soft death (no penalty) and harsh death.

    It encourages group play too, very well designed.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 7,855
    Nanfoodle said:
    danwest58 said:
    Pratt2112 said:
    danwest58 said:
    Ardwulf said:
    Kiori001 said:
     
     
     
    Dismissing people's thoughts with go else where because there are other games out there, just shows how weak your footing is on the topic and is also rude. You have nothing to support your point of view other than a mantra it adds risk and fear. So in instead you dismiss people thinking your post has depth. It does not.
    I hear ya on the different forms of death penalty. I am ok with xp loss penalties but I am not against other ways of doing it. Not saying this should be considered but I play project gorgon on the side and they make death on bosses hurt if your not prepared. They do this with curses. Usually the curse gives you a type of bad debuff until you beat the boss or do a quest to lift it or a potion and so on.
    I think a stacking debuff would be more fitting when you die at the hands of any mob. Something like up to 5-10 stacks, each stack adds -1% hp and -1% to stats and maybe run speed -1% so you feel it. Or maybe make it unlimited stacks. Have set classes with the ability to remove the debuff or a quest in town you can do to remove it. Having classes with the ability to remove it would help that class gets teams and add interdependence. Where an exp loss only adds more grinding to the game and nothing more. I am sure the devs could come up with something even smarter than this if they put their minds to it. 



  • AngryElfAngryElf Member UncommonPosts: 136
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.

    Project Gorgon does this.  Death experience ends up granting slight passive stat increases. Not enough to want to spend all day dying, but means an encounter is never a complete waste. 
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    AngryElf said:
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.

    Project Gorgon does this.  Death experience ends up granting slight passive stat increases. Not enough to want to spend all day dying, but means an encounter is never a complete waste. 
    Nice, I like the ingenuity. 

    I swear, the big MMO devs just don't brainstorm up this kind of creative shit anymore.
  • xeturaxetura Member UncommonPosts: 6
    I think a lot of little things can add a bit of depth and give the game a better overall feel:

    1. Being able to put points into attributes every two levels or so(ala Vanguard)
    2. Skill gains(such as weapon skills, parry, etc) shouldn't max out as soon as you level. Vanguard did this after a while and it made the skills pretty useless and just a number to stare at. One of the great things about Everquest was the fact that you still had to work on your skills throughout the game and it gave you something extra to work on and improve.
    3. Being able to spend 5-10 points on skills when you level up.

    They don't seem like much, but they really add more depth to the game and aren't difficult to implement. A lot of small things like this IMO add a lot to the game and give you more things to look forward to as you progress.
  • yilayila Member UncommonPosts: 29
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.
    Why dont we just put a socialist death system in the game while we are at it.  When I die I get half of the exp I lost from your experience you have gained?

    Feel the BUUURNNNNNNN
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,803
    heerobya said:
    I think having progression at the small group level at "end game" is important. 

    I think the whole solo leads to small group leads to raid group thing is kind of stupid, IMO.

    I like the idea of small group content to level, small group content to end-game, small group content at end-game.

    A challenging 5-6 person dungeon or whatever can be just as difficult as a 20-40 person raid. The only thing more difficult is the organization of the larger group, and the coordination/control by the raid leaders, but there is no reason small group content can't be as challenging in terms of technical game play.

    If anything small group can be MORE challenging because each player gains more responsibility in a smaller group. Each loss/death in the group is felt more clearly.
    Oh...I wasn't expecting that.  I completely agree.  I thought we were going to be arguing.  Hmm, well now what do I do.  I was almost looking forward to the big, pointless pissing contest I was getting myself into and it didn't happen.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    edited March 2016
    Oh...I wasn't expecting that.  I completely agree.  I thought we were going to be arguing.  Hmm, well now what do I do.  I was almost looking forward to the big, pointless pissing contest I was getting myself into and it didn't happen.
    Hmm what do you want to fight about then?

    I think larger group content is cool simply because there is something "epic" about being a part of a 20 person team vs. a 5 person team. Or taking part in a 100 person battle vs. a 5 vs. 5 etc.

    Why that is? I think simply that pop culture has taught us that large scale battles between armies and such are really cool.

    As a counter point, the real epic battles are always the most intimate - one vs. one.

    So what's the point?

    THERE IS NONE! HAH!

    No the real point is that raids exist and existed in the early MMOs like EQ because it was cool and something you couldn't get in other games, large scale group content. That's it. 

    There is literally no other gameplay advantage or design theory etc. that makes large group somehow better than smaller group, in fact there are many more valid/true game design reasons NOT to have large group content.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    heerobya said:
    Has anyone else done a down/wounded system similar to what SWG used to have?

    Perfect compromise, IMO between soft death (no penalty) and harsh death.

    It encourages group play too, very well designed.
    Yep that's where I got my suggestions from with interactivity between players/classes on the event of death.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • CatibrieCatibrie Member UncommonPosts: 80
    Experience loss also makes no sense. No matter what you do in life you have the opportunity to learn from it. There should be penalties from death but my experience should always go up not down. Please remove the senseless grind.

    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”
    Albert Einstein


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 489
    edited March 2016
    Catibrie said:
    Experience loss also makes no sense. No matter what you do in life you have the opportunity to learn from it. There should be penalties from death but my experience should always go up not down. Please remove the senseless grind.

    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”
    Albert Einstein


    Experience loss after death is just a way of having consequences in the game. It even kind of makes sense because if you seriously get hurt in life, it's easy to become rusty and lose some of your former robustness. That's why prolonged unemployment is bad. Regardless, how realistic it's is unimportant. If it was something else, more realistic, like wounds which remain for X time, everybody would still complain, depending on how severe the consequence. Players tend to not like consequences whether it's in game or irl.

    I've always liked penalties (or consequences) in games. Just the way I am. I think pain makes things feel real and so it's immersive. Without it, it's just a game and I can't be absorbed in it. BUT I don't want consequences to be too unforeseeable. The best consequences are the ones we can prevent or can be foreshadowed by our choices. However, I understand it's hard--or impractical--to make ALL consequences foreshadowed by choices. I also understand everbody has different aptitudes and so some will suffer disproportionately. For example, a twitch heavy dungeon with big consequences for failure would disproportionally affect gamers who have low twitch aptitude.

    But I don't expect Pantheon to have a death penalty or no maps or no GPS or similar. I will play it regardless of what it does. So don't take what I say the wrong way. I'm just stating opinions what I like in the best circumstances. Yet I understand if Pantheon were to have a big death penalty and no GPS and no maps and so on, it'd be suicide for its future success.

    Instead what I hope for is a sort of survival server or a survival class. The survival server would have bigger death penalties and more dangers in general. The survivor class would be similar, but there'd be no benefit or advantage to it. Someone who chooses a survivor class will level slower and suffer larger penalties. They'd not be stronger or more powerful. They might get a title, that's all. The game would have to balance everything so if these players group with normal players everything is ok and other factors.

    (If that isn't there, I'll still play Pantheon.)

    It's easy to see all of this as just mashochism or needless punishment if you don't enjoy it yourself. It's the same for GPS on maps. Why would someone not want GPS or not want detailed maps? Immersion. That's why. As I said, a game without frustration isn't as real and not as immersive. Myself being this way, I can't take a game seriously if it doesn't have some consequences. I cherish the feeling of having to jump over a chasm. If I fall, I die and lose time. But let me say: It's a great, awesome feeling. That's what I want in games. It's not as fun when games remove the consequences. The chasm loses its aura of danger. The intensity lessens. I lose interest. I might fall asleep.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • kridakkridak Member UncommonPosts: 27
    edited March 2016
    It is not a senseless grind it is a bloody penalty for dying....

    And if you want to use a real world example here ya go...think of it like this...ever had a serious concussion? You can actually forget what happened to yourself.  Think of death as a worse version of that, you forget a certain amount of life experience, but you regain it as you start playing again.

    If we are using debuffs do not allow classes to cure them otherwise whats the point it is again no longer a penalty, it is a ploy for the lazy folks to not have to worry about a real penalty.


  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,127
    edited March 2016
    AngryElf said:
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.

    Project Gorgon does this.  Death experience ends up granting slight passive stat increases. Not enough to want to spend all day dying, but means an encounter is never a complete waste. 
    To be more specific it gives you xp in dying skill and as you lvl up that skill it gives you permanent passives like increased health and resistances. I like the skill lvling in the game it is very well thought out.
  • CatibrieCatibrie Member UncommonPosts: 80
    AngryElf said:
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.

    Project Gorgon does this.  Death experience ends up granting slight passive stat increases. Not enough to want to spend all day dying, but means an encounter is never a complete waste. 
    To be more specific it gives you xp in dying skill and as you lvl up that skill it gives you permanent passives like increased health and resistances. I like the skill lvling in the game it is very well thought out.
    That sounds very different and appealing. Debuffs on a death as a penalty and char advancement all rolled in together. That's what developers should be doing today. Taking old systems and evolving them into something new and exciting. Why should I lose experience when a system like this makes me feel the challenge and has me excited about the development of my char? Tickle me pink.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,127
    edited March 2016
    Catibrie said:
    AngryElf said:
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.

    Project Gorgon does this.  Death experience ends up granting slight passive stat increases. Not enough to want to spend all day dying, but means an encounter is never a complete waste. 
    To be more specific it gives you xp in dying skill and as you lvl up that skill it gives you permanent passives like increased health and resistances. I like the skill lvling in the game it is very well thought out.
    That sounds very different and appealing. Debuffs on a death as a penalty and char advancement all rolled in together. That's what developers should be doing today. Taking old systems and evolving them into something new and exciting. Why should I lose experience when a system like this makes me feel the challenge and has me excited about the development of my char? Tickle me pink.
    If you can get past the graphics and the fact that it's alpha it is a very fun game. That's why I am playing it for now and will be trying Pantheon in the future to see which one I will stick with. I have supported them both with money though because I think both have real promise to them.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 489
    edited March 2016
    Pratt2112 said:
    (snip)

    Also, death penalties absolutely do make better players, I'd say objectively so. Even the crappier players in a MMO with a DP are better than those in MMOs with out it. Why? Because death penalties suck - which is exactly the point of them - people want to avoid them, and so they are more careful in how they play.

    (snip)

    That's the purpose death penalties serve. It's not to arbitrarily punish players for failing. It's to make them play more carefully and strategically, so they don't die in the first place. Yes dying sucks... because you're not supposed to die!

    Also, in MMOs without death penalties, players don't play better because they don't have to. Doesn't matter if they die 10 times to some enemy because they just keep running in face first without thinking it through. Why bother being careful when there's no penalty for failing to do so?

    Finally, saying that
    I want to make it clear I agree with you. I explained in my prior post and possibly in another one in this thread. I support consequences. They make the game fun, for me.

    BUT I want to play the devil's advocate. I've played hte devil's advocate so much since I was younger, I don't know if I'm a troll or if I actually work for the devil.

    (And no I don't intentionally troll, if I by chance am somehow a troll. It's best explained as I care about what others think who disagree with me. Strongly, even. A flaw?)

    Personally, I don't think it makes us better players. The strain of knowing consequences are heavy might make players more careful, but it's easy to be too carefully or just plain not enjoy the discomfort. Players don't respond the same way to it. Some will play worse because of it. Some players will play their best when the consequences are least.

    Also sometimes s*** happens and it isn't our fault. Heavy consequences make it even more painful. Some peole just cannot handle that at all.

    This is what it's:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoIQAX_jOQw

    We're adrenaline junkies. Looking for a high. Playing on the edge of danger or extremes. We need it or it isn't compelling.

    Please don't take my post the wrong way. Can't I agree and play hte devils advocate too? Will you let me? I've played MMO's for many many years. Ok I've been the adrenaline junky for most of that time. You wouldn't believ some of the things I've done. But in that time I've come to know it's very niche. I know most players aren't like me. And I respect other people's opinion. I probably respect others more than I respect my own opinions.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    heerobya said:
    If anything you should gain more XP for dying and coming back to life.

    After all, no experience better than doing it, failing and coming back to try again etc.

    Too easily abused as a game mechanic, of course, but an interesting thought.
    Well, while I like the devs trying something new, I really don't like buffing people for losing.  That's like the modern day participation trophy system.  Really not a fan of giving any type of bonuses at all for death.  I'm not in the masochist "violate my spirit" camp like some of these people seem to be, but I do prefer a slight death penalty, even if it's just a stacking debuff like some have mentioned.

    Catibrie said:
    Experience loss also makes no sense. No matter what you do in life you have the opportunity to learn from it. There should be penalties from death but my experience should always go up not down. Please remove the senseless grind.

    “Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.”
    Albert Einstein


    As far as this goes:  I think this is almost a philosophical debate.  That said, from a reality perspective, it actually makes a ton of sense to me.  Kridak's post below is a good theory on it. 

    kridak said:
    It is not a senseless grind it is a bloody penalty for dying....

    And if you want to use a real world example here ya go...think of it like this...ever had a serious concussion? You can actually forget what happened to yourself.  Think of death as a worse version of that, you forget a certain amount of life experience, but you regain it as you start playing again.

    If we are using debuffs do not allow classes to cure them otherwise whats the point it is again no longer a penalty, it is a ploy for the lazy folks to not have to worry about a real penalty.



    One could easily theorize that dying would be something akin to a concussive state or even dreaming.  Even when you remember details from those states, things are rarely clear.  So, in theory, memory loss associated with dying is perfectly reasonable. 

    All that said, I prefer challenging AI that makes it easier to die rather than harshly punishing people for dying to crappy AI/mechanics.  I'm all for positively encouraging people to try to improve themselves and take on tougher and tougher challenges rather than deter them with a boatload of punishment.
  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 229

    Debuffs on death as a penalty would be nothing more than a nuisance if they could be immediately cured through class interdependency. 

    If I had a magic debuff that could be dispelled by a wizard/enchanter, I would be begging either class if I wasn't grouped with one.  /shout Are there any wizards than can cure mana burn around, will to donate?.  If I were grouped with one, and they could simply cast a spell to remove the penalty, then it isn't one at all. 

    And, if you're saying that even with removal of the penalty there's a 10-15 minute res effects type debuff still, then you're encroaching on tedium/nuisance for the sake of change.  And you're trading one penalty that effects a player's time for another, with the exception that you're trying to remove what you call the "Grind" by trying to regain experience and inserting another system that just allows you to /afk until the effects wear off instead of play.

    And, if you couldn't find a wizard/enchanter, you'd be wasting more time than you would have by just fighting and trying to regain your experience.  Because if the debuff was truly a penalty, it would need to be a debuff to stats of greater than 15-20%, and someone wouldn't want to continue fighting unless it was gone.

    And, if you say the penalty is only a 1% reduction (even a stackable 1%), then it's pointless and serves no purpose and you may as well not have any death penalty at all.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Lokero said:



    One could easily theorize that dying would be something akin to a concussive state or even dreaming.  Even when you remember details from those states, things are rarely clear.  So, in theory, memory loss associated with dying is perfectly reasonable. 

    All that said, I prefer challenging AI that makes it easier to die rather than harshly punishing people for dying to crappy AI/mechanics.  I'm all for positively encouraging people to try to improve themselves and take on tougher and tougher challenges rather than deter them with a boatload of punishment.
    Exactly, those types of systems existed then because that's what knowledge as well as tech allowed for, they were changed for a reason, not just because of "err casuals" but because they found better systems, as well as acquired more working knowledge of what people like/dislike.

    Punish through design skill and creativity, don't use arbitrary systems for the sake of being like EQ... Which is all it really boils down to, no matter what people try and argue about (risk vs reward)... There are simply better ways to do this, yet since they weren't in EQ, that crowd can't comprehend it. Which is quite simply the result of an echo chamber that I can see as possibly ruining the potential of this game.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Raidan_EQRaidan_EQ Member UncommonPosts: 229
    Nanfoodle said:
    I will be posting much on this topic as I feel strongly about it and no one here has given one good reason why its worth keeping. Other than the same mantra that it adds risk and fear. Risk and fear can be added other ways without adding grind. Adding grind to a game for the sake of grind is again, dumb and lazy.
    I gave plenty of reasoning/rebuttal - you ignored it all.  What else is a death penalty suppose to add other than risk or fear?  Should you feel elated?  Excited?  Satisfied?  If a death in a game provokes risk and fear, then it's done it's job.  Having meaningless debuffs that can be easily cured does neither.  Mobs will still be zerged as their is no fear of permanently player time loss.  And again, "time" is the only finite resource, which is why exp loss exponentially increases the risk and fear. 
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Raidan_EQ said:

    Debuffs on death as a penalty would be nothing more than a nuisance if they could be immediately cured through class interdependency. 

    If I had a magic debuff that could be dispelled by a wizard/enchanter, I would be begging either class if I wasn't grouped with one.  /shout Are there any wizards than can cure mana burn around, will to donate?.  If I were grouped with one, and they could simply cast a spell to remove the penalty, then it isn't one at all. 

    And, if you're saying that even with removal of the penalty there's a 10-15 minute res effects type debuff still, then you're encroaching on tedium/nuisance for the sake of change.  And you're trading one penalty that effects a player's time for another, with the exception that you're trying to remove what you call the "Grind" by trying to regain experience and inserting another system that just allows you to /afk until the effects wear off instead of play.

    And, if you couldn't find a wizard/enchanter, you'd be wasting more time than you would have by just fighting and trying to regain your experience.  Because if the debuff was truly a penalty, it would need to be a debuff to stats of greater than 15-20%, and someone wouldn't want to continue fighting unless it was gone.

    And, if you say the penalty is only a 1% reduction (even a stackable 1%), then it's pointless and serves no purpose and you may as well not have any death penalty at all.

    Err debuffs work in combination with treks, respawn, weapon/gear damage, etc.. it all ties into the penalty for death, these are game-play systems, XP loss is not, it's systematic punishment, that only results in more grind, that's it. It adds nothing to the game, nor interdependency. It's fake longevity that adds nothing of real value to gameplay. 

    It's not a deal breaker for me, but it certainly isn't an interesting mechanic. 



    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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