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Questions about ESO, SWTOR and a couple other games.
Sciela
Member UncommonPosts: 46
So, I'm just bored out of my mind. I played WoW for 10 years and absolutely loved it, but when Blizzard launched the 6.0 prepatch for WoW, I noticed how much they gutted all the classes I loved, and made them boring as all hell. So, I quit. Been game hopping since, and while I've found games that were fun at first, they all got boring really, really fast. I've been playing League for a while, but I really don't like MOBAs, and I'm so beyond tired of it... but I have nothing else to play and nothing else to really do outside of video games. I grew up with video games, and even learned to read by playing Pokemon, so I don't want to lose them -- but it seems like gaming is just turning into a cesspool of greed that's only really fun for lazy brats who can't be bothered to think.
Ranting aside, I have a few questions about ESO, SWTOR, WoW and GW2.
WoW: So, the 6.0 patch made Fistweaving non-viable (and they're totally removing it in Legion), and my Enhance Shammy (second-favorite class) was basically just one button spam combined with a lot of AA spam. Is the entire game like that? I enjoyed WoW because I had 15-20+ abilities to use and manage, and had all kinds of procs and resets and whatnot going off. I can't stand "action" games because of how much complexity they give up just so you can dodge roll and use your mouse to attack things. So just how easy did they make WoW with Draenor?
GW2: I played GW2 back when they released the vanilla version, and really loved it! I played for 4-5 months, got an Engineer to max level (finally) and started doing a lot of Fractals (they were new when I quit). However, since GW2 is geared towards "casuals," (in my mind, the word "casual" just means a lazy asshole who expects everything to be handed to them, rather than actually working for anything) there really was no end-game content, and nothing to do outside of Fractals (everything else was so pathetically easy) and the occasional WvW match. Now, I know that the new expansion has a raid, right? Is it the only one for GW2 at all, or do they plan on adding more? Is the raid any fun, or is it all simplified because of GW2's lack of defined roles (the trinity)?
ESO: I got into a beta, tried the game out, and got bored within a couple hours. So, is the game all that fun, combat-wise? Are there dungeons and raids and all that? Is there objective-based PvP like the battlegrounds in WoW?
SWTOR: Any time I ask for an MMO to play, people suggest this one, since I enjoyed WoW. But, after watching videos of the game (especially raid bosses), it just looks... dumb, like an overly-simplified version of WoW (basically like Draenor), but with a cheap-looking Star Wars skin. Am I totally wrong? What's the combat like? Are the raids as easy as they look? How horrible is the F2P cash grabbing? Just tell me about the game, pretty please?
BDO: I'll admit I know very little about BDO, but with all the hype around it, maybe it could be what I'm looking for? I don't like sandboxes at all, but if it has fun, meaningful content, I could live with it. Is there anything that isn't just "Hey, virtual world! No 'game' in it!"? I'm not one for RPing, and I like having goals and objectives to work towards. Just open-ended roaming and pretending I'm in another world just isn't fun for me.
There you go. Any answers are appreciated. ^^ I just want to find a game I can fall in love with and spend the next 10 years on, but, unfortunately, it seems like gaming just isn't really meant for people like me anymore. Just so bored and fed up with everything, I want a reason to be excited again. : /
Ranting aside, I have a few questions about ESO, SWTOR, WoW and GW2.
WoW: So, the 6.0 patch made Fistweaving non-viable (and they're totally removing it in Legion), and my Enhance Shammy (second-favorite class) was basically just one button spam combined with a lot of AA spam. Is the entire game like that? I enjoyed WoW because I had 15-20+ abilities to use and manage, and had all kinds of procs and resets and whatnot going off. I can't stand "action" games because of how much complexity they give up just so you can dodge roll and use your mouse to attack things. So just how easy did they make WoW with Draenor?
GW2: I played GW2 back when they released the vanilla version, and really loved it! I played for 4-5 months, got an Engineer to max level (finally) and started doing a lot of Fractals (they were new when I quit). However, since GW2 is geared towards "casuals," (in my mind, the word "casual" just means a lazy asshole who expects everything to be handed to them, rather than actually working for anything) there really was no end-game content, and nothing to do outside of Fractals (everything else was so pathetically easy) and the occasional WvW match. Now, I know that the new expansion has a raid, right? Is it the only one for GW2 at all, or do they plan on adding more? Is the raid any fun, or is it all simplified because of GW2's lack of defined roles (the trinity)?
ESO: I got into a beta, tried the game out, and got bored within a couple hours. So, is the game all that fun, combat-wise? Are there dungeons and raids and all that? Is there objective-based PvP like the battlegrounds in WoW?
SWTOR: Any time I ask for an MMO to play, people suggest this one, since I enjoyed WoW. But, after watching videos of the game (especially raid bosses), it just looks... dumb, like an overly-simplified version of WoW (basically like Draenor), but with a cheap-looking Star Wars skin. Am I totally wrong? What's the combat like? Are the raids as easy as they look? How horrible is the F2P cash grabbing? Just tell me about the game, pretty please?
BDO: I'll admit I know very little about BDO, but with all the hype around it, maybe it could be what I'm looking for? I don't like sandboxes at all, but if it has fun, meaningful content, I could live with it. Is there anything that isn't just "Hey, virtual world! No 'game' in it!"? I'm not one for RPing, and I like having goals and objectives to work towards. Just open-ended roaming and pretending I'm in another world just isn't fun for me.
There you go. Any answers are appreciated. ^^ I just want to find a game I can fall in love with and spend the next 10 years on, but, unfortunately, it seems like gaming just isn't really meant for people like me anymore. Just so bored and fed up with everything, I want a reason to be excited again. : /
Comments
Maybe once you've done that you'll know what questions it is you want to ask.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Plus, a lot of MMOs pick up a lot later on in levels. I'll admit I got bored while leveling alts in WoW, but once I got them to max level, things just got so much more fun. So, a trial wouldn't really tell me much.
And, if SWTOR is anything like WoW (which people tell me it is), then it wouldn't really be fun until later on in the game, if not max level. So, I don't wanna go spend all that time pushing through the leveling (although, the lore would be fun, since I'd never played through it before) if there's nothing for me at the end of it all. : / I really enjoy PvP like the battlegrounds WoW had, and raids. xD That, and the combat has to be fun and not spammy. So, I'm trying to figure out if SWTOR has that before I go spend a lot of time with it. >.>
One of the boss:
"I can't stand "action" games because of how much complexity they give up just so you can dodge roll and use your mouse to attack things." and this, is the direction of nowadays.
Anyways, putting that away and looking the questions, TOR could worth a try, if you liked wow. I wouldn't say wow with SW skin, but mechanics-wise it's fairly similar. As @jester wrote above the f2p model is very harsh, so you'd better fare with subscription.
Depends, I for example loved to level up characters (some great stories there), and never cared about the endgame. Pvp, it's like in most games (I rarely touch it, and I play on PvE server, but what I've seen "wow battleground" is there). Combat is also the regular, wow-ish combat (can't say whether is it fun or not, I'm not into mmo's for combat
Other candidates not on your list (if you liked wow), Rift or LotRO. Both are very similar to wow, but you won't find über-hard difficulty in them either. Challenge is not on the charts nowadays within the industry.
Maybe you could check Wildstar, they've stated they're aiming for the vanilla-wow crowd. But Wildstar's combat is dodging and rolling and using the mouse, exactly what you're lamenting about
edit: just imo, but speaking of combat and fun, the only combat which isn't a bore for me is Conan's melee system, maybe you can check that too. AoC is a wow-ish setting too (except the NPC interaction), has great dungeons and raids, and has two empty pvp servers too
If you try to find a game that is similar to what you've been playing for the last ten years and are now tired of, you'll be 90% of the way to being sick of the "new" game the day you pick it up. What you should be looking for is something very different from what you've played before.
I can still pick up old Pokemon, Zelda or Mario games and have a blast, despite playing them thousands of times, and just picked up the HD remake of Twilight Princess because I still enjoy the game. Thing is, none of the newer games are all that enjoyable. Any that are, are little indie games that are done and over with in <10 hours.
I want to find a game I enjoy. It can be just like WoW, or something totally new. But, I need to enjoy it.
All you talk about is WoW here and WoW there, it is THE mmo that has always been the most easy mmo to play ~and yes, I played Vanilla era incl Naxx completion before BC hit~.
It wasn't rocket science, it wasnt challenging, it was just a huge time sink, make your macros, complete the linear quests for raid access and the previous raids to get the tiered gear that was required and listen to the raid leader.
If even I could complete those raids and get to regular warlord in vanilla PvP, anyone could.
It seems pretty clear to me what game you want to play and which version of it.
How about you start looking for it, play some games and see for yourself?
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Macros made the game pathetic, but they also halved your effectiveness, and I never used them. I had bars of 15-20+ abilities (on most classes) to manage, lots of procs, resets and mechanics going on, and all that. What do I have in some "action" game? Maybe 4-7 abilities, most of which are on the mouse buttons, and very little, if any, mechanics going on -- just spam spam spam. It's just boring.
And, the raids got a lot better in Wrath, all the way to MoP, then Draenor came out and ruined it. They were never hard, but, again, they were fun.
And I have played a lot of games. WoW, GW2, FFXIV, Maplestory, Mabinogi, Eden Eternal, Aura Kingdom, Diablo, League, Call of Duty, Starcraft, ESO, Runes of Magic, Allods, Conquer Online, MU, RIFT, LOTRO, a ton of smaller indie / Steam games, and almost every Nintendo game. And, you know what? A lot of those got old, or I just didn't have fun playing them. I enjoy Nintendo still, but even they're slipping into the "casual" crowd pleasing, and the whole DLC / F2P scamfest.
But hey, go on assuming things. ^^
Combat
From the OP, it seems like combat is a big draw for you. TOR is similar in that it has tab-targetting and each class gets a lot of skills. I played a Jedi Shadow and "mastered" all three specs (tank plus 2 dps). I completed all raids in nightmare mode and reached rank 80ish in pvp.
Sadly, combat is really dull in TOR. Despite having lots of skills, you won't be using many. I spent hours theorycrafting rotations and practicing on training dummies. For the Jedi Shadow, the most effective PvE DPS rotation only used about 7 skills, plus 2 or 3 emergency skills, plus pots. It was pretty basic. I know other classes had it even easier.
The main problem I had with the combat was lack of interteam skills, plus strict adherance to trinity. There was no real buffing / debuffing, transferring aggro, CC etc. It was all just tank, spank and heal. Most of the original raids were built with very simple mechanics too, though they did start getting more interesting before I quit.
The only time combat started getting interesting was in PvP. Whilst CC was generally useless in endgame PvE, in the PvP it obviously plays a big part. The stuns, roots, knockdowns and knockbacks all became massively useful and added a lot of fun to the mix.
Leveling
My personal opinion is that the leveling experience is the worst I've ever had in an MMO. The storylines were extremely bland, the worlds devoid of life and very linear. I'd spend more time on my speeder than I would in combat.
However, things have changed. Class quests now offer 12x normal XP. This allows you to level up to cap through class quests alone. I still found the class quests dull, but better than the rest, so this is an improvement. Many websites, including this one, have praised this move, saying it massively improves the experience for casuals. The reality is, Bioware recognised their game sucked and so have allowed you to skip most of it.
Endgame PvE
My information is very out of date, so you're better looking elsewhere for info. However, when I played, the endgame was too easy. The first two raids (Eternity Vault and Karaggas Palace) were crazy easy. We cleared both on normal mode first attempt, then the next week we cleared both on hardmode first attempt. We reached a point where, as a guild, clearing the endgame raids on hardest setting could be done in 1h15mins. They eventually added nightmare mode.
The next raid, Terror From Beyond, finally stepped up the challenge. More interesting mechanics (puzzles etc) and generally harder all round, it took us a few weeks to clear on hardmode.
There are also a lot of 4 man dungeons in the game. Some of these are the best crafted areas of the game and are the bits that most remind me of Kotor. They are mostly pointless whilst leveling but the scaled versions can be fun. However, the gear in the game did make them all trivial very quickly.
Endgame PvP
So, I leveled on a PvE server but was always flagged for PvP. During my leveling experience, I managed 2 fights in the open world. This is mostly just because the leveling areas don't mix, so you never see the enemey. At endgame, there is a specific pvp area called Ilum, but it sucked. 50v50 regularly crashed the server, but it was also just poorly designed.
So, virtually all PvP is done in the warzones. I have to admit, I loved them. Two of them were standard control-point capture maps, so lots of killing to hold CPs to gain points. One was assymetrical - one team attacks, the other defends, then they switch. One was sort of control-points with a twist. The final was huttball! Huttball was my favourite. Basically american football with killing, you only won by scoring touchdowns, so loads of team tactics.
All warzones were 8v8. Great fun in a premade or solo. They had ranked matches too. Separate gear for the pvp too. You can also level up exclusively through warzone pvp if you want (well, lvl10+).
Gearing
This, combined with poor combat design, is why I left. SW:TOR had (and, i hear, still has) ridiculous vertical scaling for gear. Each new tier of gear completely trivialised all previous content. When I was still playing, the power gap between a fully geared pvper (rank 70+ iirc) and a fresh endgame with the entry level pvp gear was around 120%. When you add on the experience, the power gap was crazy. As a jedi shadow in full pvp gear, I could take on 3-4 fresh pvpers and win without breaking a sweat. I could literally 2-shot a healer, then just work on the rest.
Star Wars Feeling
For me, a big draw for swtor was simply that it was star wars. You do get the occasional feeling that your are in the SW universe, but they are few and far between. The cartoon graphics are the main culprit here imo, but also simply being set 3000 years before the films plays a part. Alien voice acting was the first moment when i was like "yeh, this is cool". I then had to wait until Tattooine (lvl28ish) before it felt star warsy again. Karaggas Palace is also a great raid for SW feeling - its basically Jabbas Palace, complete with a rancor boss and bounty hunters.
Overall
SW:TOR promotes itself on its story and general public reviews have rated it highly on its story content. Sure, the delivery is nice (voice acting), especially when you get an alien language. The light/darkside options seem nice on the surface but in reality are pure fluff. However, I don't play games for their story, I read books or watch films for that. As a consequence, I found SW:TOR lacking. It has all the core MMORPG features but they are all dumbed down, resulting in a lack of depth and longevity for me. From everything I've heard from friends, this hasn't changed at all.
If you're bored, you can get the game, subscribe and with the 12x bonus xp, be capped in a week. Then you can experience the endgame pvp and raiding scene. Basically, within a month you can see everything the game has to offer without spending much money.
As for fist-weaving, I haven't played with my monk enough to get a feel for it. My Disc priest (a similar "damage-healing" class) currently only uses damage during phases with low incoming raid damage to build up a powerful +25% healing buff for high damage phases. It doesn't seem like Monks really get any comparable benefit, although it sort of does feel like meleeing is a better way to conserve mana and build up mana tea stacks.
I feel like Blizzard had some legit concerns with these playstyles: (a) shallow rotations, (b) "auto-pilot healing" where you didn't need to pay attention to who was damaged, and (c) the playstyle either being overpowered (more damage+healing contribution than a regular class could achieve) or if balanced perceived as underpowered (because they'd consistently end up dead last on heal meters.)
I feel like they could've fixed (a) and (b) by creating deeper rotations with increased reliant on targeted heals. (c) is trickier, as it's a player perception thing but it's also an encounter design thing (if hybrids only put out 80% of normal healing (because they're dealing 25% of normal DPS) then that means you can't design a 5-healer fight which requires 500% total healing contribution, if that makes sense.)
SWTOR: Decent game, though the rotations weren't quite as deep as WOW's. I feel their biggest mistake was having all mobs basically play the same, which made for a very repetitive game. (One of the main points of quests is to have you fight different mobs, who you need to fight differently, which creates gameplay variety.)
ESO: I had a lot of fun with this overall, but the combat rotations were even worse than SWTOR due to how freeform the skill selection was. They made the right design decisions for such a freeform system (there are almost no direct damage spells, with most spells involving a non-stacking DoT component, which means you rotate through those spells to refresh DoT durations.)
I definitely plan on returning to ESO to experience Orsimmar and Thieves Guild content, as my interest tapered off at endgame and I think most of the DLC that's come out since then has addressed that concern.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I also looked at a couple other classes on that website, and they seem well enough too, but Fistweaving (and Attonement healing) were just fun. You had to mix together a DPS rotation as well as all kinds of healing abilities, and it was just twice as hectic and fast-paced as a pure healer or DPS. On my Monk (never got the Priest to 90), I could heal just as well as anyone else, even beating Resto Druids at the time, and did ~90k DPS in SoO. The playstyle wasn't shallow, it was the total opposite; most people couldn't even manage it. You had around 22-23 abilities to keep track of, and had to weave together a full DPS rotation as well as healing abilities and all that. If the encounter wasn't good for the whole DPS thing, then I'd be a Soothing Mist bot and AFK heal people (boring as all hell, by the way), so making good decisions was important. It was just fun. It was a little strong in PvP, but still easily beatable by someone with a MW effect -- I don't see why Blizzard would go and remove it outright.
I donno. Seems like decision-making isn't something a lot of developers want to allow these days. Everything has to be done the way they want you to do it, and nothing but. Weird DPS-healer things that were incredibly hard to work with, but incredibly rewarding and fun? Not allowed. Having a bar full of abilities that most people didn't even use, but some used and performed dramatically better? Not allowed.
Honestly, I just wish GC never left Blizzard, then WoW would still be fun. The new guy is all about "casuals" and ruining the game to get every moron to play, while simultaneously alienating everyone who isn't mentally challenged.
As for SWTOR and ESO, I've tried both, and based on what you said, it seems like what I thought was true. Can just cross both off my list. Thanks.
That's not to say it lacks story. It has quite a bit of lore, but it doesn't present it as nicely as those two do. However, there's a ridiculous amount of things to do in the game, and the combat is awesome.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/