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Map systems and player known locations

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  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Wow you make many points and I agree. I've played Wurm Online since 2012 and it had no map for about 2 years. They did add one in 2014, but it still doesn't have a GPS-system. Have you played it?

    Thing is, I don't think this idea will fly. There'e a few players here and there who like hte idea, like you and me. But it's not enough. There's a huge population against it, sadly. And they're vehement. To them, all this here is just pain and no game. That's all they see. I'ts not negotiable.

    Wne way to counter the lack of a /loc system is to give the player a (costly) option after death to get their corpse through magic. It would prevent the experience from being regained, but it would mean not having to rely on player interdependence. I think any kind of player interdependence needs to be cautious about not giving players a solo option. I think part of the probelm is it's either all or nothing with most MMO's They either are very solo-oriented or they'll (in rare cases) go full masochist hardcore. Maybe the reason it's this way is because players think in balck/white and buy games that way. Most of us if we se XYZ we'll not evne consider playing the trial.

    My expectations for Pantheon are low, but I still expect to try it and I think I'll enjoy it because these issues are small ultimately. Pantheon at heart is still very much what I like in an MMO. For most of us, it'll do, even if it has some warts. Because you have to be realistic. I've been alive long enough to see many MMO's come and go too. I know how importan it's to be realistic.

    EDIT: Want to ad I also loved UO in tis day. It had an in-game map with GPS. It also came with a fullsize map in the box I could lay out on a table.
    Pantheon is attempting to achieve a certain "spirit" of play which is having the player go through a process of learning as they play. This was core concept of how you played EQ. You were dropped into the world with no direction or guidance and were left to explore the large and mysterious world on your own.  While maps have been in many older games, there is a certain mystery and process of exploration that they seem to rob the player from.

    Map vs no Map is a very old gaming argument that has created divisions between gamers for years in the PC cRPG gaming market. It was the "hand map" vs the "auto-map" systems in the early cRPGs that was a contention among players. So I am not contesting that not having a map is "old school", rather that the goal or spirit of "old school" in the context to which many talk about here with EQ and how games have changed over the years is the process of learning and exploring through play. I think map systems take away from that game play.

    Now you are right, some people dislike this but VR has to be careful as to why they implement a feature. If it is merely to appeal to majority, then that would be in conflict with the point of why they are making Pantheon. I think that regardless of player "wants", they should stick to the spirit of their focus and not cater to majority wants and demands. That is how we ended up with games today where the player is given everything, where convenience is priority, not game play. So I think it is in the best interest of VR to stick to that ideal rather than make judgements to appeal to convenience demands just because some players display poor behavior in their disagreement.

    As I said previously, I have no problems with having an in-game map even through I personally would prefer not having one, rather having the map should be a component of game play, not a means to circumvent it. Having an in-game map where you can not see yourself on it and where there are no /location indicators or systems and then adding a cartography skill where a player must "learn" the zone over time to eventually create a general map is a concept of game play. Having your map handed to you, downloaded, etc... is circumventing game play, in essence "cheating" a component of play that would otherwise be required of the player.

    As for Wurm Online, no I haven't played it, but I do know what it is and have watched it. Neat game, but not EQ enough for me.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,144
    Hrimnir said:
    And here Sinist is back to implying that common game features that have existed throughout the history of RPG's is "cheating".

    I seriously wish the ignore tool automatically removed any text from quoted posts from that person too so i wouldn't get so incensed by the absurdity of some of it.
    Yeah, AC had one it was very basic and didn't show locations of anything really besides starter towns same thing with XI accept you had to buy or find them. I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,144
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,144
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
    I did not say any ones name I was replying in general because there are many people here who are acting like they want no map.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
    I did not say any ones name I was replying in general because there are many people here who are acting like they want no map.
    Ok, well my mistake then, it was just odd that you made that comment in a direct response to someone who was specifically targeting me with this harassing comment:

    Hrimnir said:
    And here Sinist is back to implying that common game features that have existed throughout the history of RPG's is "cheating".

    I seriously wish the ignore tool automatically removed any text from quoted posts from that person too so i wouldn't get so incensed by the absurdity of some of it.
    Yeah, AC had one it was very basic and didn't show locations of anything really besides starter towns same thing with XI accept you had to buy or find them. I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Did you accidentally quote him or something?
  • drivendawndrivendawn Member RarePosts: 2,144
    edited March 2016
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
    I did not say any ones name I was replying in general because there are many people here who are acting like they want no map.
    Ok, well my mistake then, it was just odd that you made that comment in a direct response to someone who was specifically targeting me with this harassing comment:

    Hrimnir said:
    And here Sinist is back to implying that common game features that have existed throughout the history of RPG's is "cheating".

    I seriously wish the ignore tool automatically removed any text from quoted posts from that person too so i wouldn't get so incensed by the absurdity of some of it.
    Yeah, AC had one it was very basic and didn't show locations of anything really besides starter towns same thing with XI accept you had to buy or find them. I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Did you accidentally quote him or something?
    Was on my phone and busy so yeah. >.> Not used to my new phone yet.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited March 2016
    Drivendawn, Sinist is referring to things like /loc and having your position on the map automatically shown. Radar maps are essentially GPS. UO I don't think had a complete viewable world map, but it did have GPS and a minimap, so it was like viewing a small portion of the world map. But it didn't label the map locations. Early on, at least, you were able to talk to NPCs and they could point you in the right direction to things. Still, since it was GPS, it meant you didn't have to look around you as much. And that's what this is all about.

    Is it valid gameplay to need to pay attention to your environment to be productive? I think it's, but I don't think most players enjoy it. Sigh. I think the reason I enjoy it's because I'm an explorer on the Bartle test. Or maybe I'm a masochist. Most players aren't. And that's the problem and what I was telling Sinist is there's just not enough support for it, except in the very smallest and non-commercial MMO's. In the case of Pantheon, the odds it will do away with GPS (and/or /loc) are unlikely. Even if it did, I doubt it would remain after the first year. Most MMO's pander almost immediately to the whiners and cave. It's also desperation on their part to get higher subscription numbers. It's one thing to say "We won't do it." and quite another to say you won't do it after you start to doubt the future of your MMO. For example, in Wurm Online, Rolf said he'd never add in-game maps. Guess what? He did. It doesn't have GPS, but he caved. And he'll continue to. Next thing they'll do is show the locations of towers, except maybe player-built towers on the PvP servers. And then, ultimately, GPS. And if he doesn't do that, he'll do something else to alleviate the cries.

    I don't think avoiding GPS is old school. I think it's a way of playing. It's valid. But it's so unpopular you may as well stand on the head of a pin before you start expecting commercial MMO's to do it. You'll be happier.

    EDIT: The noobs pour in and plea. Their allies come in droves, exclaiming as a mighty chorus, "Hear us oh Lord! We suffer!" /tears

    And so GPS was added.
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    Do that and I won't play. 
  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 951
    I think the only way no indicator of where you are works iis if the maps themselves have enough very distinguishable areas and landmarks. Though i don't think VR would NOT have them, i do think they might not be able to make it as detailed as a game like EQ or FFXI that were high budget large team games. XI had it's own engine and whatnot so the game looked and made many things look pretty distinct, but without at least a basic map it could be hard to tell where you were. VR does not have a massive budget or team to make things super original and deeply detailed which would make the lack of basic indicators or a map in general hard to live without. That is not a knock against them, just a reality knowing they have limits.

    I think a simple map that is earned/found/crafted/bought...ect would be a good middle ground. I would also prefer indicators because that is what i was used to with FFXI, but i can understand people wanting less which is why setting up something like when you read a signpost or objects like it in the world (you can be creative and realistic with this) you could check your map and have an indicator (or some form of mark) that would show you where you are. That way its not a constant pinpoint, but if you were getting lost it would be a good way to re-orient yourself.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Moirae said:
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    Do that and I won't play. 
    Oh he would love that.  I'm pretty sure his goal is to get roughly 5-15 people who are like minded in every possible way to play the game and nobody else there to ruin his supreme experience.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    snip

    Is it valid gameplay to need to pay attention to your environment to be productive? I think it's, but I don't think most players enjoy it. Sigh. I think the reason I enjoy it's because I'm an explorer on the Bartle test. Or maybe I'm a masochist. Most players aren't. And that's the problem and what I was telling Sinist is there's just not enough support for it, except in the very smallest and non-commercial MMO's. In the case of Pantheon, the odds it will do away with GPS (and/or /loc) are unlikely. Even if it did, I doubt it would remain after the first year. Most MMO's pander almost immediately to the whiners and cave

    ...

    And so GPS was added.
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.


  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    I'd play it with or without. Pantheon will be niche. I don't expect it to perfectly fit what I want. But it's nice every so often to get mad.

    It's a waste of effort to research Pantheon at this point. What is it, alpha or prealpha? That's like Adam and Eve compared to Trump.

    I'm not holding my breath. But this forum is fun.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    I'd play it with or without. Pantheon will be niche. I don't expect it to perfectly fit what I want. But it's nice every so often to get mad.

    It's a waste of effort to research Pantheon at this point. What is it, alpha or prealpha? That's like Adam and Eve compared to Trump.

    I'm not holding my breath. But this forum is fun.
    They are opening pre-alpha testing soon. They plan to show some early gameplay on twitch beginning Friday night (today), and revealing the game at game conferences this year.


  • qyte64qyte64 Member UncommonPosts: 2
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    well there is a compass in the game screenshots section althrough rather pre..pre..alpha

    Edit1: The icons of the game plus the right hand bar illustration is absolutely amazing imho.

    And given the fact that there is already a section in their website titled 

    Atlas of Terminus

    I guess one can interact with the 4K resolution atlas (https://pantheonmmo.com/images/atlas-hi-res.jpg) and put some type of pins / coords on it for a webview at least.



    Edit2: The crowns on the map are the races' starting zones. I can't yet decide if that is really needed nowadays but it sure brings back memories.
    Post edited by qyte64 on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    qyte64 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    well there is a compass in the game screenshots section althrough rather pre..pre..alpha

    Edit1: The icons of the game plus the right hand bar illustration is absolutely amazing imho.

    And given the fact that there is already a section in their website titled 

    Atlas of Terminus

    I guess one can interact with the 4K resolution atlas (https://pantheonmmo.com/images/atlas-hi-res.jpg) and put some type of pins / coords on it for a webview at least.



    Edit2: The crowns on the map are the races' starting zones. I can't yet decide if that is really needed nowadays but it sure brings back memories.
    I think racial starting areas are crucial for providing a varied player experience and to spread out the population. It encourages player to replay the game, and also gives the world a more storied feel if done right.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
    Dullahan said:

    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    Respectfully, I have not seen that announced as an indelible decision that cannot be changed after testing. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 951
    I dont know if EQ had it, but it was something i liked in XI which is a "Hub City". It is where the higher leveled people would gather that is more centralized to the high lvl areas (and surrounded by higher lvl areas). The way the map that is show with the starter citys it would seem like most people would keep to their own areas and that there doesnt seem to be a place that is relatively far away from all starting areas that would house a lot of the top end stuff.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    Amathe said:
    Dullahan said:

    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    Respectfully, I have not seen that announced as an indelible decision that cannot be changed after testing. 
    Well you could argue anything could be changed after testing, but they've confirmed no minimap or gps on numerous occasions. Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,380
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited March 2016
    Amathe said:
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 
    This is why I said Pantheon is still pre-alpha or alpha. We don't know what it wil be. it's worthless to watch what's going on right now. And I honestly don't want to know anyway. I want to be surprised when it's released.

    But even though I don't like radars and GPS, I hope those things are in it when--or if--it launches. I know it's weird to say I want something in it I don't like, but the margin of error is too small for them to increase the risk. MMO's as they're even when you play it safe are risky. Loook at all the failed WoW clones which have a fraction of the population they wanted.

    Besides I have other choices. I can play Wurm Online for no GPS. And there're other things too I can do. It's not a one choice world.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Amathe said:
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 
    This is why I said Pantheon is still pre-alpha or alpha. We don't know what it wil be. it's worthless to watch what's going on right now.
    They've actually said plainly several times that there will be no minimap. The earliest builds had one. Players were adamant that they did not want it, and it was removed. A lot of things are up in the air, but that isn't one of them.


  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    I have to laugh at this thread.  IF you hate not having a mini-map, own it by saying you can't play without one.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

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    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    They've actually said plainly several times that there will be no minimap. The earliest builds had one. Players were adamant that they did not want it, and it was removed. A lot of things are up in the air, but that isn't one of them.
    You may be right and they'll never change on this. I'll give you that.

    Maybe another reason I am this way is because I'm preparing for the worst. Unlike a lot of fans, I know from history you really can't trust what'll occur. I don't want to get my hopes up and then get burned.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
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