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Map systems and player known locations

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  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,414
    I think /loc is one of those quality of life things that despite being "unrealistic" is a good thing.  Several points have been made.  If you're in a new area and you're about to die, being able to have a rough idea of where your corpse is a good thing so you're not getting killed 15 more times trying to find your corpse. This is a situation where its very easy to create a frustration level that makes a person say "fuck it" and just cancel their sub and quit the game.  There is a balance.  Does there need to be a full blown in game map with labelled points of interest and blah blah?  Probably not, that's going to the opposite end.

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.

    People need to keep in mind, we got to the point we're at in the MMO industry because we have been swinging the pendulum too far to one side.  That doesn't mean we have to have a knee jerk reaction and slap it all the way to the apex of the opposite side.  There is middle ground.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,469
    Hrimnir said:

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.
    If the OP's suggestion were to be adopted, it would not be a return to "old school."  Rather, he proposes that the game be made more restrictive than for example EQ or Vanguard by eliminating not only any type of map, but also even a coordinates system. 

    Here's a screen shot from Meridian 59 (1995, before Everquest). And viola, it has a map. So whatever arguments are being advanced that the OP's suggestion is a return to "old school" are baseless. 


    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,469
    Here's Dark Eden (1997, also before EQ). With a map:


    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • itchmonitchmon Member RarePosts: 1,987
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    if you make a game with no maps, someone will come along, make a map add-on, and it will become "required" download for most people.  See also: EQ1.

    I'm all about limited map but it is completely reasonable to believe every character has a compass and a rough map.  if you recall the early days of LOTRO i'm thinking of that level of map usefulness.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, ESO

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  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited February 2016
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 951
    Amathe said:
    What I hear you saying is that if you propose some pointless difficulty, that is pure gold. But if I propose one, it is delusional mockery. Are you afraid to learn a new language? A real, challenging language instead of just sitting and spamming orc or fairy as a simulation? Sounds like you don't want to play a game and just want to read your EZ-mode English and be entertained. Perhaps you are not as good at languages as I am and are afraid to compete? Perhaps you are afraid I will have an advantage over you that is unwarranted? Hmmmmm. 
    I agree with this, there are some things that just take the "no hand holding" thing to a stupid degree. Like others have said, it would be beyond stupid to not have a map, even if its pretty basic. I came from FFXI mainly so i might not be as "hardcore" as some people, but that game for me felt "hardcore" by a lot compared to just about anything i have played since then.

    They made it so the only map you really start off with is your starting city map and i think the zone right outside of it. Seems obvious to me why you would have a map of your starting town...you live there. Aside from that it makes just as much sense you dont have any other maps and need to earn/buy them. In XI they were not super crude, but by no means pinpoint accurate by any stretch (if you played when you had to go through the jungles in Kazham, you know how pretty much useless those maps could be).

    The maps were bought for a decent amount of the areas that it made sense to have them aka: right outside of towns or on the paths to different citys because you would assume many people would be traveling between them, so someone would have obviously made maps and sold them. The ones outside of that (at least for XI) you had to get them from opening coffers with keys in the zone (it was not easy tbh) and most of the time people went without them. I can see in Pantheon the coffer system not being usable, but i liked having to do something tough within the area itself to get it.

    For some people here the grid on the map, seeing your location and dots for your party might be too "easy" but comparatively speaking to anything these days it looks mostly difficult and old. I personally think there should be some way to tell where you and your group are, even if its not that easy, it will be a big deal early on for friends who want to gather and play together (since this game is supposed to be very group heavy). I we have no idea where one another are or there are not enough well established land marks, it will end up more of a frustration than a fun old school exploration. Grouping will be important here, id rather it not be a complete pain in the butt to make that a thing, especially those of us who will want to play with friends who might not all start in the same spot.  
  • FourplayFourplay Member UncommonPosts: 216
    Scumm said:

    I'm interested in map mechanics in Pantheon.  Here are some ideas I have at the moment (subject to change based on this discussion):

    • Maps should be static, hand-drawn items.  It should be up to the player to accurately read the map and apply it to the world.  I think the maps from Thief: The Dark Project  would be a great place to start.
    • Looking at a map should stop your character, and take up most of your screen
    • Maps should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality and price.  Civilized areas should have more detailed maps easily available, while dungeons and the wilderness should have harder to obtain, less detailed maps.
    • Maps should be found in lore-friendly locations as well (Example: A dungeon map may drop from mobs like “The Orc Strategist” etc)
    • Maps obtained from different methods may have different information. The Shady Swashbuckler may sell you a low-quality map of Freeport, but it may have all the secret entrances identified. Maybe certain NPCs will sell you purposely bad maps to get you lost, or lead you to danger.
    • Compasses should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality
    • Maps should have weight and take up inventory slots. Potentially maps could have a storage ‘book’ that players could add to, like a quiver
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  A simple drawing tool to scribble notes or circle locations so that players can add information. These options could be increased by purchasing new cartography tools.  The cheapest allows black line drawing, the best allows multiple colors, shapes, brushes, etc
    • This leads to more questions:  Should edited maps be tradeable?  Should players be able to buy blank pieces of paper and draw their own maps from scratch and then sell those maps? (Personally, I think that would be a nice thing to have)
    My point is, maps should not be a default UI element.  They should be items in the game that players obtain, or potentially, create. 
    2.Why take up most of the screen? Why not just have the game switch to first person mode and look at the map while still able to walk around. Then you could have gameplay mechanics for marking the terrain and such without taking you of the world. Wanna mark  a landmark, a treasure, a ruin? Just face the clear canvas map towards it and trace out your etchings.

    6.I don't like compasses in conjunction with a map. It then becomes a gps and people worry less about navigating by studying surroundings and more on following the pointy arrow. A general compass direction is fine as long as it doesn't give a distance on screen.

    Create is good.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,414
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Im sorry, but they're six of one half a dozen of the other.  There is no real difference. If there is an in game map system, people will just take screenshots of the map, put a big red dot on the map, upload it to a website, and voila, people know exactly where the mob spawns.

    At least a /loc requires the person to be running around spamming the button and actually having to navigate their way there without an visual cues.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Hrimnir said:
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Im sorry, but they're six of one half a dozen of the other.  There is no real difference. If there is an in game map system, people will just take screenshots of the map, put a big red dot on the map, upload it to a website, and voila, people know exactly where the mob spawns.

    At least a /loc requires the person to be running around spamming the button and actually having to navigate their way there without an visual cues.
    Taking a screen shot won't do you any good if your current location is not identified on the map.

    So, a player will have to speculate at the location and then generally assign that to the map online. Not having a specific /loc to identify the location means any player using an online guide still has to navigate based on landmark association as they look at the map and then watch the area for a spawn. With the location system, they can navigate to the exact location of the spawn.

    Also, you don't need to spam the /loc command. Once you understand the maps base direction of coordinates, you just check it every so often to update your current location.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Amathe said:
    Hrimnir said:

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.
    If the OP's suggestion were to be adopted, it would not be a return to "old school."  Rather, he proposes that the game be made more restrictive than for example EQ or Vanguard by eliminating not only any type of map, but also even a coordinates system. 

    Here's a screen shot from Meridian 59 (1995, before Everquest). And viola, it has a map. So whatever arguments are being advanced that the OP's suggestion is a return to "old school" are baseless.
    I didn't say a "return" to old school, in fact here is what I specifically responded to you with:

    Sinist said:
    It is a game in the "spirit" of EQ and Vanguard. If we are to logically look at this, then what is taken from EQ is that of the old school concepts of earning and learning your play. The lack of hand-held features where the player has to explore, learn and evolve through this virtual world.

    Notice I say "spirit" of EQ, and I talk about old school "concepts"... of "earning and learning your play".

    EQ's concepts of play were that the player was dropped into the world and left to explore and advance on their own. That is the spirit of old school and so in keeping with such, my discussion in this thread was about seeking such avenues of play because those are the key aspects to which made games like EQ great (ie earning and learning your play).

    Original EQ had no maps, the player was required to learn their way through the game, my suggestion about no location system would only serve as to remove the crutch of relying on /loc to identify specifics in the game. As I said, if maps are added and the location system is accessible, then it gives a means for player to pin point locations, named spawns, etc... rather than referring to them generally.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Exactly. The location system serves as a very strong tool that in many ways is an "external" tool that is disconnected to that of game play. Not only that, but it actually could be considered a form of cheat that circumvents game play.

    Some have used examples here of "spamming it right before they die" so they can easily find where their corpse is, but doesn't this remove the need to find a player with a "sense corpse" spell or a "summon corpse" spell there by creating interdependence of classes?

    While I would prefer no maps, I am fine with a map system, providing it is implemented as a game feature that promotes game play.

    If we are to have maps, I think not being able to see your current location on them is key. This then requires the player to actually learn their areas as even with a map, they need to know where they are to read the map correctly.

    This turns the map into more of a generic icon map which when combined with some basic compass tools, the player can identify their location through landmark evaluation and then identify on the map the base directions (ie north, south, east, west).

    What this does is "aid" a player in their exploration, but it does not hand them the reward. They still have to "play the game" to succeed. They still need to learn and understand the basics of their surroundings to be able to identify where they might be on the map. This creates an interactive means of play without handing over win.

    I think you could also implement a cartography skill as some mentioned here and expand on the map making, but again, never showing the player where they are on the map. This skill could be a combination of a base skill and each zone could have its own skill requirement so a player has to essentially work up their map in every zone (no spamming a skill up and instantly seeing every map of every zone you just walk through).

    The /loc system is the real abuser here as it allows a person to pin point a location. Remove that and don't allow the player to see themselves on the map and you get a nice game play system of mapping and exploration that can't be easily circumvented. That is, people will still have to put effort in exploration and weight the dangers of such a venture.
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Sinist said:
    Stuff...
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.  The /loc system is an external tool that allows players to circumvent actual gameplay.  I think that most Pantheon fans want strong interdependence between the classes, and including a /loc system undermines that spirit.  

    If you want to find your corpse, hire a Necro or Bard to find it (possibly more classes like the Ranger and Shaman should have this ability to make it more practical).  If you want to find a specific mob, hire a Ranger, Druid, or Bard to track it down.

    Using /loc is very convenient, but so is having a soul binder outside the city gates.  If you just need to /hail the soulbinder to get a bind, you'll never have to /tell another player and ask for one.  Having instant travel negates the need to ask for a port.  Having a graveyard or minor death penalties reduces the need to find a rez.  As long as there are gameplay methods in place to have players help each other, we don't need artificial solutions like /loc.   

    I think the /loc function is one of those things we take for granted because it was always part of EQ, but when we look at it more critically, it doesn't really hold up as a good system.   
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Fourplay said:
    2.Why take up most of the screen? Why not just have the game switch to first person mode and look at the map while still able to walk around

    6.I don't like compasses in conjunction with a map. It then becomes a gps and people worry less about navigating by studying surroundings and more on following the pointy arrow. A general compass direction is fine as long as it doesn't give a distance on screen.

    I was wondering if someone would take issue with my #2.  That was basically my way of saying 'no mini-maps'.  I envision map use similarly to meditating.  You should be a little vulnerable when focusing on your map. I don’t have any well thought-out reasons to support this right now, just a gut feeling. 

    As for the compass, I think we’re almost in agreement.  I don’t want to see a GPS either, but I do think that a compass is a decent compromise.  I definitely don’t want to see a Skyrim-style compass that puts a waypoint on the screen and directs you to it.  And I prefer a compass to the psychic sense-heading skill.  Maybe the scout classes could have that skill, but not everyone.   

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Scumm said:

    I was wondering if someone would take issue with my #2.  That was basically my way of saying 'no mini-maps'.  I envision map use similarly to meditating.  You should be a little vulnerable when focusing on your map. I don’t have any well thought-out reasons to support this right now, just a gut feeling.

    I think an interesting feature would be various levels of this "focus" that is dependent on a players "awareness" rating or some similar skill. So certain races and classes would have varying levels of "focus" on the map.

    An example, lets say it is a low intelligence/perception race who is a less than observant to the surroundings class who is looking at the map. For them, the map pulls in taking up most of the screen, with little thought or concern to the surroundings.

    Now if a class that is more observant and race equally known for such looks at a map, it may allow a much larger view port giving the player the ability to see the map while still checking their surroundings.

    Obviously this idea can be carried into many other area of the game, the point though is more pros/cons for race/classes and more elements of such which creates risk in play.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,414
    Scumm said:
    Sinist said:
    Stuff...
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.  The /loc system is an external tool that allows players to circumvent actual gameplay.  I think that most Pantheon fans want strong interdependence between the classes, and including a /loc system undermines that spirit.  

    If you want to find your corpse, hire a Necro or Bard to find it (possibly more classes like the Ranger and Shaman should have this ability to make it more practical).  If you want to find a specific mob, hire a Ranger, Druid, or Bard to track it down.

    Using /loc is very convenient, but so is having a soul binder outside the city gates.  If you just need to /hail the soulbinder to get a bind, you'll never have to /tell another player and ask for one.  Having instant travel negates the need to ask for a port.  Having a graveyard or minor death penalties reduces the need to find a rez.  As long as there are gameplay methods in place to have players help each other, we don't need artificial solutions like /loc.   

    I think the /loc function is one of those things we take for granted because it was always part of EQ, but when we look at it more critically, it doesn't really hold up as a good system.   


    So the flipside to that coin is, you need to find a mob, maybe its late at night, who knows, and there are no rangers/druids/bards around that are available or willing to assist you, and you're left to..... oh that's right, run around, die a bunch of times, lose a ton of XP trying to find your corpses/items, and subsequently ragequitting and canceling your subscription.

    There has to be a point where we draw a line in the sand and identify quality of life improvements that are actually justified.

    My main issue with many of these threads is that too many people are having knee jerk reactions to the issues that have gotten MMOs to where they are now, and instead of tempering their response and looking at things objectively, they're just batting the pendulum as far to the opposite side as possible in an attempt to "rebel" against the current status quo.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Hrimnir said:

    So the flipside to that coin is, you need to find a mob, maybe its late at night, who knows, and there are no rangers/druids/bards around that are available or willing to assist you, and you're left to..... oh that's right, run around, die a bunch of times, lose a ton of XP trying to find your corpses/items, and subsequently ragequitting and canceling your subscription.


    You do realize this is being marketed as a group game, not a solo one right?

    You sure you played EQ in the early days? Reason I ask is that running around, dying a bunch of times, losing exp in the process was standard feature in release EQ.

    Lets look at the facts though.

    Even if a person dies and is unable to retrieve their corpse (at that given time because apparently there are no rangers, druids, bards, necros, shadow knights, etc... on), it only has an effect on them until one of those players do log on and unless the game is dead, nobody is playing it, etc.. the chances that none would be on consistently is pretty rare.

    So your objection appears to be one of "convenience". I mean, anyone can make an argument under the same pretense of getting upset over any feature that does not provide them with an immediate solution and "rage quit" the game. This brings the question of... is Pantheon seeking players who would "rage quit" over immediate issues as such? That doesn't sound like the "old school" players this game is being marketed to that I know. In fact, the "rage quitters" were not players that I or anyone I knew in EQ affiliated with. /shrug
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • NiienNiien Member UncommonPosts: 99
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,469
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Amathe said:
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 
    Nothing wrong with that. As long as it is not catered to in game, then it isn't an issue.

    Though if they don't have a location system for players to use and you don't see yourself on the map, all of the online maps will merely be estimations and generalized reference to any specific detail anyway.
  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Member UncommonPosts: 2,255
    No in-game map systems, but rather a physical map that's as exciting and wrong as what Columbus had to work with.  The original Norrath map of EQ was great.   Just great.  Gave you enough to sort of know where you were and what was out there, and left much to the imagination.

    In-game automated map systems leave NOTHING to the imagination and only serve to hurt immersion, turning us into Head's-Up-Display (HUD) gamers.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    In-game automated map systems leave NOTHING to the imagination and only serve to hurt immersion, turning us into Head's-Up-Display (HUD) gamers.
    It is not just "imagination" that is the issue, it is adding elements to the game that take away game play. One of the biggest problem with games today is they are more concerned about "entertainment" and "convenience" than they are game play. I think that is why so many of them are just bland pointless chat rooms that most get bored with quickly.

    People think I am being insulting, but I am being honest here. Are people interested in a game or are they just interested in being entertained? Now I know some think some game play elements are not fun and would rather those aspects of play be made "convenient" for them, but this takes us back to the issue of catering to game play or catering to entertainment. For me, I would like to actually go back to games that are focused on game play, not how they can make the player comfortable, but how they can challenge the player, test them, and force them out of their comfort zone. I personally want a game, not just entertainment.
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • NiienNiien Member UncommonPosts: 99
    Amathe said:
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 
    I'm okay with other sites making maps, besides the internet has everything from how to paint your nails to making bombs, so a having a map of a zone in a game isn't too far fetched. As long as they aren't in game.

    It won't bother me due to the fact that I'm not dependent on someone else's work to figure things out. The more complicated a problem the better I feel once I completed without cheating myself for looking up the answer.

    I'm all for bringing back the times when quests used general descriptions and gave general directions or just said... over by the big tree across from the lake to the south. Then it was up the adventurers to go on their adventure... and the stories and memories were made from there with friends.
  • FlyingDutchmasterFlyingDutchmaster Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Important indeed
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 582
    edited March 2016
    Sinist said:

    Exactly. The location system serves as a very strong tool that in many ways is an "external" tool that is disconnected to that of game play. Not only that, but it actually could be considered a form of cheat that circumvents game play.

    Some have used examples here of "spamming it right before they die" so they can easily find where their corpse is, but doesn't this remove the need to find a player with a "sense corpse" spell or a "summon corpse" spell there by creating interdependence of classes?

    (snip)

    If we are to have maps, I think not being able to see your current location on them is key. This then requires the player to actually learn their areas as even with a map, they need to know where they are to read the map correctly.

    This turns the map into more of a generic icon map which when combined with some basic compass tools, the player can identify their location through landmark evaluation and then identify on the map the base directions (ie north, south, east, west).

    (snip)
    Wow you make many points and I agree. I've played Wurm Online since 2012 and it had no map for about 2 years. They did add one in 2014, but it still doesn't have a GPS-system. Have you played it?

    Thing is, I don't think this idea will fly. There'e a few players here and there who like hte idea, like you and me. But it's not enough. There's a huge population against it, sadly. And they're vehement. To them, all this here is just pain and no game. That's all they see. I'ts not negotiable.

    Wne way to counter the lack of a /loc system is to give the player a (costly) option after death to get their corpse through magic. It would prevent the experience from being regained, but it would mean not having to rely on player interdependence. I think any kind of player interdependence needs to be cautious about not giving players a solo option. I think part of the probelm is it's either all or nothing with most MMO's They either are very solo-oriented or they'll (in rare cases) go full masochist hardcore. Maybe the reason it's this way is because players think in balck/white and buy games that way. Most of us if we se XYZ we'll not evne consider playing the trial.

    My expectations for Pantheon are low, but I still expect to try it and I think I'll enjoy it because these issues are small ultimately. Pantheon at heart is still very much what I like in an MMO. For most of us, it'll do, even if it has some warts. Because you have to be realistic. I've been alive long enough to see many MMO's come and go too. I know how importan it's to be realistic.

    EDIT: Want to ad I also loved UO in tis day. It had an in-game map with GPS. It also came with a fullsize map in the box I could lay out on a table.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Not going to bother to respond to trolls.
    Post edited by Sinist on
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