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Map systems and player known locations

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  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Hrimnir said:
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Im sorry, but they're six of one half a dozen of the other.  There is no real difference. If there is an in game map system, people will just take screenshots of the map, put a big red dot on the map, upload it to a website, and voila, people know exactly where the mob spawns.

    At least a /loc requires the person to be running around spamming the button and actually having to navigate their way there without an visual cues.
    Taking a screen shot won't do you any good if your current location is not identified on the map.

    So, a player will have to speculate at the location and then generally assign that to the map online. Not having a specific /loc to identify the location means any player using an online guide still has to navigate based on landmark association as they look at the map and then watch the area for a spawn. With the location system, they can navigate to the exact location of the spawn.

    Also, you don't need to spam the /loc command. Once you understand the maps base direction of coordinates, you just check it every so often to update your current location.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Amathe said:
    Hrimnir said:

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.
    If the OP's suggestion were to be adopted, it would not be a return to "old school."  Rather, he proposes that the game be made more restrictive than for example EQ or Vanguard by eliminating not only any type of map, but also even a coordinates system. 

    Here's a screen shot from Meridian 59 (1995, before Everquest). And viola, it has a map. So whatever arguments are being advanced that the OP's suggestion is a return to "old school" are baseless.
    I didn't say a "return" to old school, in fact here is what I specifically responded to you with:

    Sinist said:
    It is a game in the "spirit" of EQ and Vanguard. If we are to logically look at this, then what is taken from EQ is that of the old school concepts of earning and learning your play. The lack of hand-held features where the player has to explore, learn and evolve through this virtual world.

    Notice I say "spirit" of EQ, and I talk about old school "concepts"... of "earning and learning your play".

    EQ's concepts of play were that the player was dropped into the world and left to explore and advance on their own. That is the spirit of old school and so in keeping with such, my discussion in this thread was about seeking such avenues of play because those are the key aspects to which made games like EQ great (ie earning and learning your play).

    Original EQ had no maps, the player was required to learn their way through the game, my suggestion about no location system would only serve as to remove the crutch of relying on /loc to identify specifics in the game. As I said, if maps are added and the location system is accessible, then it gives a means for player to pin point locations, named spawns, etc... rather than referring to them generally.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Exactly. The location system serves as a very strong tool that in many ways is an "external" tool that is disconnected to that of game play. Not only that, but it actually could be considered a form of cheat that circumvents game play.

    Some have used examples here of "spamming it right before they die" so they can easily find where their corpse is, but doesn't this remove the need to find a player with a "sense corpse" spell or a "summon corpse" spell there by creating interdependence of classes?

    While I would prefer no maps, I am fine with a map system, providing it is implemented as a game feature that promotes game play.

    If we are to have maps, I think not being able to see your current location on them is key. This then requires the player to actually learn their areas as even with a map, they need to know where they are to read the map correctly.

    This turns the map into more of a generic icon map which when combined with some basic compass tools, the player can identify their location through landmark evaluation and then identify on the map the base directions (ie north, south, east, west).

    What this does is "aid" a player in their exploration, but it does not hand them the reward. They still have to "play the game" to succeed. They still need to learn and understand the basics of their surroundings to be able to identify where they might be on the map. This creates an interactive means of play without handing over win.

    I think you could also implement a cartography skill as some mentioned here and expand on the map making, but again, never showing the player where they are on the map. This skill could be a combination of a base skill and each zone could have its own skill requirement so a player has to essentially work up their map in every zone (no spamming a skill up and instantly seeing every map of every zone you just walk through).

    The /loc system is the real abuser here as it allows a person to pin point a location. Remove that and don't allow the player to see themselves on the map and you get a nice game play system of mapping and exploration that can't be easily circumvented. That is, people will still have to put effort in exploration and weight the dangers of such a venture.
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Sinist said:
    Stuff...
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.  The /loc system is an external tool that allows players to circumvent actual gameplay.  I think that most Pantheon fans want strong interdependence between the classes, and including a /loc system undermines that spirit.  

    If you want to find your corpse, hire a Necro or Bard to find it (possibly more classes like the Ranger and Shaman should have this ability to make it more practical).  If you want to find a specific mob, hire a Ranger, Druid, or Bard to track it down.

    Using /loc is very convenient, but so is having a soul binder outside the city gates.  If you just need to /hail the soulbinder to get a bind, you'll never have to /tell another player and ask for one.  Having instant travel negates the need to ask for a port.  Having a graveyard or minor death penalties reduces the need to find a rez.  As long as there are gameplay methods in place to have players help each other, we don't need artificial solutions like /loc.   

    I think the /loc function is one of those things we take for granted because it was always part of EQ, but when we look at it more critically, it doesn't really hold up as a good system.   
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Fourplay said:
    2.Why take up most of the screen? Why not just have the game switch to first person mode and look at the map while still able to walk around

    6.I don't like compasses in conjunction with a map. It then becomes a gps and people worry less about navigating by studying surroundings and more on following the pointy arrow. A general compass direction is fine as long as it doesn't give a distance on screen.

    I was wondering if someone would take issue with my #2.  That was basically my way of saying 'no mini-maps'.  I envision map use similarly to meditating.  You should be a little vulnerable when focusing on your map. I don’t have any well thought-out reasons to support this right now, just a gut feeling. 

    As for the compass, I think we’re almost in agreement.  I don’t want to see a GPS either, but I do think that a compass is a decent compromise.  I definitely don’t want to see a Skyrim-style compass that puts a waypoint on the screen and directs you to it.  And I prefer a compass to the psychic sense-heading skill.  Maybe the scout classes could have that skill, but not everyone.   

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Scumm said:

    I was wondering if someone would take issue with my #2.  That was basically my way of saying 'no mini-maps'.  I envision map use similarly to meditating.  You should be a little vulnerable when focusing on your map. I don’t have any well thought-out reasons to support this right now, just a gut feeling.

    I think an interesting feature would be various levels of this "focus" that is dependent on a players "awareness" rating or some similar skill. So certain races and classes would have varying levels of "focus" on the map.

    An example, lets say it is a low intelligence/perception race who is a less than observant to the surroundings class who is looking at the map. For them, the map pulls in taking up most of the screen, with little thought or concern to the surroundings.

    Now if a class that is more observant and race equally known for such looks at a map, it may allow a much larger view port giving the player the ability to see the map while still checking their surroundings.

    Obviously this idea can be carried into many other area of the game, the point though is more pros/cons for race/classes and more elements of such which creates risk in play.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Scumm said:
    Sinist said:
    Stuff...
    I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.  The /loc system is an external tool that allows players to circumvent actual gameplay.  I think that most Pantheon fans want strong interdependence between the classes, and including a /loc system undermines that spirit.  

    If you want to find your corpse, hire a Necro or Bard to find it (possibly more classes like the Ranger and Shaman should have this ability to make it more practical).  If you want to find a specific mob, hire a Ranger, Druid, or Bard to track it down.

    Using /loc is very convenient, but so is having a soul binder outside the city gates.  If you just need to /hail the soulbinder to get a bind, you'll never have to /tell another player and ask for one.  Having instant travel negates the need to ask for a port.  Having a graveyard or minor death penalties reduces the need to find a rez.  As long as there are gameplay methods in place to have players help each other, we don't need artificial solutions like /loc.   

    I think the /loc function is one of those things we take for granted because it was always part of EQ, but when we look at it more critically, it doesn't really hold up as a good system.   


    So the flipside to that coin is, you need to find a mob, maybe its late at night, who knows, and there are no rangers/druids/bards around that are available or willing to assist you, and you're left to..... oh that's right, run around, die a bunch of times, lose a ton of XP trying to find your corpses/items, and subsequently ragequitting and canceling your subscription.

    There has to be a point where we draw a line in the sand and identify quality of life improvements that are actually justified.

    My main issue with many of these threads is that too many people are having knee jerk reactions to the issues that have gotten MMOs to where they are now, and instead of tempering their response and looking at things objectively, they're just batting the pendulum as far to the opposite side as possible in an attempt to "rebel" against the current status quo.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Hrimnir said:

    So the flipside to that coin is, you need to find a mob, maybe its late at night, who knows, and there are no rangers/druids/bards around that are available or willing to assist you, and you're left to..... oh that's right, run around, die a bunch of times, lose a ton of XP trying to find your corpses/items, and subsequently ragequitting and canceling your subscription.


    You do realize this is being marketed as a group game, not a solo one right?

    You sure you played EQ in the early days? Reason I ask is that running around, dying a bunch of times, losing exp in the process was standard feature in release EQ.

    Lets look at the facts though.

    Even if a person dies and is unable to retrieve their corpse (at that given time because apparently there are no rangers, druids, bards, necros, shadow knights, etc... on), it only has an effect on them until one of those players do log on and unless the game is dead, nobody is playing it, etc.. the chances that none would be on consistently is pretty rare.

    So your objection appears to be one of "convenience". I mean, anyone can make an argument under the same pretense of getting upset over any feature that does not provide them with an immediate solution and "rage quit" the game. This brings the question of... is Pantheon seeking players who would "rage quit" over immediate issues as such? That doesn't sound like the "old school" players this game is being marketed to that I know. In fact, the "rage quitters" were not players that I or anyone I knew in EQ affiliated with. /shrug
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • NiienNiien Member UncommonPosts: 99
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Amathe said:
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 
    Nothing wrong with that. As long as it is not catered to in game, then it isn't an issue.

    Though if they don't have a location system for players to use and you don't see yourself on the map, all of the online maps will merely be estimations and generalized reference to any specific detail anyway.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    In-game automated map systems leave NOTHING to the imagination and only serve to hurt immersion, turning us into Head's-Up-Display (HUD) gamers.
    It is not just "imagination" that is the issue, it is adding elements to the game that take away game play. One of the biggest problem with games today is they are more concerned about "entertainment" and "convenience" than they are game play. I think that is why so many of them are just bland pointless chat rooms that most get bored with quickly.

    People think I am being insulting, but I am being honest here. Are people interested in a game or are they just interested in being entertained? Now I know some think some game play elements are not fun and would rather those aspects of play be made "convenient" for them, but this takes us back to the issue of catering to game play or catering to entertainment. For me, I would like to actually go back to games that are focused on game play, not how they can make the player comfortable, but how they can challenge the player, test them, and force them out of their comfort zone. I personally want a game, not just entertainment.
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • NiienNiien Member UncommonPosts: 99
    Amathe said:
    Niien said:
    I'm on board for no maps or hand holding of any kind! :) 
    There are going to be maps. Whether they are in game or not is an open issue, but there will be EQAtlas type sites with detailed maps galore. And in this day and age people can easily have two monitors up, with the game on one and a map on the other. 
    I'm okay with other sites making maps, besides the internet has everything from how to paint your nails to making bombs, so a having a map of a zone in a game isn't too far fetched. As long as they aren't in game.

    It won't bother me due to the fact that I'm not dependent on someone else's work to figure things out. The more complicated a problem the better I feel once I completed without cheating myself for looking up the answer.

    I'm all for bringing back the times when quests used general descriptions and gave general directions or just said... over by the big tree across from the lake to the south. Then it was up the adventurers to go on their adventure... and the stories and memories were made from there with friends.
  • FlyingDutchmasterFlyingDutchmaster Member UncommonPosts: 9
    Important indeed
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Sinist said:

    Exactly. The location system serves as a very strong tool that in many ways is an "external" tool that is disconnected to that of game play. Not only that, but it actually could be considered a form of cheat that circumvents game play.

    Some have used examples here of "spamming it right before they die" so they can easily find where their corpse is, but doesn't this remove the need to find a player with a "sense corpse" spell or a "summon corpse" spell there by creating interdependence of classes?

    (snip)

    If we are to have maps, I think not being able to see your current location on them is key. This then requires the player to actually learn their areas as even with a map, they need to know where they are to read the map correctly.

    This turns the map into more of a generic icon map which when combined with some basic compass tools, the player can identify their location through landmark evaluation and then identify on the map the base directions (ie north, south, east, west).

    (snip)
    Wow you make many points and I agree. I've played Wurm Online since 2012 and it had no map for about 2 years. They did add one in 2014, but it still doesn't have a GPS-system. Have you played it?

    Thing is, I don't think this idea will fly. There'e a few players here and there who like hte idea, like you and me. But it's not enough. There's a huge population against it, sadly. And they're vehement. To them, all this here is just pain and no game. That's all they see. I'ts not negotiable.

    Wne way to counter the lack of a /loc system is to give the player a (costly) option after death to get their corpse through magic. It would prevent the experience from being regained, but it would mean not having to rely on player interdependence. I think any kind of player interdependence needs to be cautious about not giving players a solo option. I think part of the probelm is it's either all or nothing with most MMO's They either are very solo-oriented or they'll (in rare cases) go full masochist hardcore. Maybe the reason it's this way is because players think in balck/white and buy games that way. Most of us if we se XYZ we'll not evne consider playing the trial.

    My expectations for Pantheon are low, but I still expect to try it and I think I'll enjoy it because these issues are small ultimately. Pantheon at heart is still very much what I like in an MMO. For most of us, it'll do, even if it has some warts. Because you have to be realistic. I've been alive long enough to see many MMO's come and go too. I know how importan it's to be realistic.

    EDIT: Want to ad I also loved UO in tis day. It had an in-game map with GPS. It also came with a fullsize map in the box I could lay out on a table.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Not going to bother to respond to trolls.
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Wow you make many points and I agree. I've played Wurm Online since 2012 and it had no map for about 2 years. They did add one in 2014, but it still doesn't have a GPS-system. Have you played it?

    Thing is, I don't think this idea will fly. There'e a few players here and there who like hte idea, like you and me. But it's not enough. There's a huge population against it, sadly. And they're vehement. To them, all this here is just pain and no game. That's all they see. I'ts not negotiable.

    Wne way to counter the lack of a /loc system is to give the player a (costly) option after death to get their corpse through magic. It would prevent the experience from being regained, but it would mean not having to rely on player interdependence. I think any kind of player interdependence needs to be cautious about not giving players a solo option. I think part of the probelm is it's either all or nothing with most MMO's They either are very solo-oriented or they'll (in rare cases) go full masochist hardcore. Maybe the reason it's this way is because players think in balck/white and buy games that way. Most of us if we se XYZ we'll not evne consider playing the trial.

    My expectations for Pantheon are low, but I still expect to try it and I think I'll enjoy it because these issues are small ultimately. Pantheon at heart is still very much what I like in an MMO. For most of us, it'll do, even if it has some warts. Because you have to be realistic. I've been alive long enough to see many MMO's come and go too. I know how importan it's to be realistic.

    EDIT: Want to ad I also loved UO in tis day. It had an in-game map with GPS. It also came with a fullsize map in the box I could lay out on a table.
    Pantheon is attempting to achieve a certain "spirit" of play which is having the player go through a process of learning as they play. This was core concept of how you played EQ. You were dropped into the world with no direction or guidance and were left to explore the large and mysterious world on your own.  While maps have been in many older games, there is a certain mystery and process of exploration that they seem to rob the player from.

    Map vs no Map is a very old gaming argument that has created divisions between gamers for years in the PC cRPG gaming market. It was the "hand map" vs the "auto-map" systems in the early cRPGs that was a contention among players. So I am not contesting that not having a map is "old school", rather that the goal or spirit of "old school" in the context to which many talk about here with EQ and how games have changed over the years is the process of learning and exploring through play. I think map systems take away from that game play.

    Now you are right, some people dislike this but VR has to be careful as to why they implement a feature. If it is merely to appeal to majority, then that would be in conflict with the point of why they are making Pantheon. I think that regardless of player "wants", they should stick to the spirit of their focus and not cater to majority wants and demands. That is how we ended up with games today where the player is given everything, where convenience is priority, not game play. So I think it is in the best interest of VR to stick to that ideal rather than make judgements to appeal to convenience demands just because some players display poor behavior in their disagreement.

    As I said previously, I have no problems with having an in-game map even through I personally would prefer not having one, rather having the map should be a component of game play, not a means to circumvent it. Having an in-game map where you can not see yourself on it and where there are no /location indicators or systems and then adding a cartography skill where a player must "learn" the zone over time to eventually create a general map is a concept of game play. Having your map handed to you, downloaded, etc... is circumventing game play, in essence "cheating" a component of play that would otherwise be required of the player.

    As for Wurm Online, no I haven't played it, but I do know what it is and have watched it. Neat game, but not EQ enough for me.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited March 2016
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    Sinist said:
     I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Read the discussion and you may understand the points being made.
    I did thanks.
    Then why do you imply that I am claiming there is a problem having a basic map? I even pointed out that while I "personally" don't like in game maps, that I don't see an issue having one as long as it supports game play and is not just a convenience tool to avoid having to learn the areas (which is why I think the /loc command and seeing yourself on the map is bad for game play).

    I also did not contest the fact that many games in the past had maps, I did however point out that to keep in the "spirit" of what originally EQ was about, that a map should promote the need for the player to learn in play, not circumvent it.

    Is that what you read?
    I did not say any ones name I was replying in general because there are many people here who are acting like they want no map.
    Ok, well my mistake then, it was just odd that you made that comment in a direct response to someone who was specifically targeting me with this harassing comment:

    Hrimnir said:
    And here Sinist is back to implying that common game features that have existed throughout the history of RPG's is "cheating".

    I seriously wish the ignore tool automatically removed any text from quoted posts from that person too so i wouldn't get so incensed by the absurdity of some of it.
    Yeah, AC had one it was very basic and didn't show locations of anything really besides starter towns same thing with XI accept you had to buy or find them. I just don't see the problem with having basic maps to find or make or buy when they have been around since the oldest MMO's
    Did you accidentally quote him or something?
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Drivendawn, Sinist is referring to things like /loc and having your position on the map automatically shown. Radar maps are essentially GPS. UO I don't think had a complete viewable world map, but it did have GPS and a minimap, so it was like viewing a small portion of the world map. But it didn't label the map locations. Early on, at least, you were able to talk to NPCs and they could point you in the right direction to things. Still, since it was GPS, it meant you didn't have to look around you as much. And that's what this is all about.

    Is it valid gameplay to need to pay attention to your environment to be productive? I think it's, but I don't think most players enjoy it. Sigh. I think the reason I enjoy it's because I'm an explorer on the Bartle test. Or maybe I'm a masochist. Most players aren't. And that's the problem and what I was telling Sinist is there's just not enough support for it, except in the very smallest and non-commercial MMO's. In the case of Pantheon, the odds it will do away with GPS (and/or /loc) are unlikely. Even if it did, I doubt it would remain after the first year. Most MMO's pander almost immediately to the whiners and cave. It's also desperation on their part to get higher subscription numbers. It's one thing to say "We won't do it." and quite another to say you won't do it after you start to doubt the future of your MMO. For example, in Wurm Online, Rolf said he'd never add in-game maps. Guess what? He did. It doesn't have GPS, but he caved. And he'll continue to. Next thing they'll do is show the locations of towers, except maybe player-built towers on the PvP servers. And then, ultimately, GPS. And if he doesn't do that, he'll do something else to alleviate the cries.

    I don't think avoiding GPS is old school. I think it's a way of playing. It's valid. But it's so unpopular you may as well stand on the head of a pin before you start expecting commercial MMO's to do it. You'll be happier.

    EDIT: The noobs pour in and plea. Their allies come in droves, exclaiming as a mighty chorus, "Hear us oh Lord! We suffer!" /tears

    And so GPS was added.
  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    Do that and I won't play. 
  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 953
    I think the only way no indicator of where you are works iis if the maps themselves have enough very distinguishable areas and landmarks. Though i don't think VR would NOT have them, i do think they might not be able to make it as detailed as a game like EQ or FFXI that were high budget large team games. XI had it's own engine and whatnot so the game looked and made many things look pretty distinct, but without at least a basic map it could be hard to tell where you were. VR does not have a massive budget or team to make things super original and deeply detailed which would make the lack of basic indicators or a map in general hard to live without. That is not a knock against them, just a reality knowing they have limits.

    I think a simple map that is earned/found/crafted/bought...ect would be a good middle ground. I would also prefer indicators because that is what i was used to with FFXI, but i can understand people wanting less which is why setting up something like when you read a signpost or objects like it in the world (you can be creative and realistic with this) you could check your map and have an indicator (or some form of mark) that would show you where you are. That way its not a constant pinpoint, but if you were getting lost it would be a good way to re-orient yourself.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Moirae said:
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    Do that and I won't play. 
    Oh he would love that.  I'm pretty sure his goal is to get roughly 5-15 people who are like minded in every possible way to play the game and nobody else there to ruin his supreme experience.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    snip

    Is it valid gameplay to need to pay attention to your environment to be productive? I think it's, but I don't think most players enjoy it. Sigh. I think the reason I enjoy it's because I'm an explorer on the Bartle test. Or maybe I'm a masochist. Most players aren't. And that's the problem and what I was telling Sinist is there's just not enough support for it, except in the very smallest and non-commercial MMO's. In the case of Pantheon, the odds it will do away with GPS (and/or /loc) are unlikely. Even if it did, I doubt it would remain after the first year. Most MMO's pander almost immediately to the whiners and cave

    ...

    And so GPS was added.
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.


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