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Map systems and player known locations

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  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78

    I'm interested in map mechanics in Pantheon.  Here are some ideas I have at the moment (subject to change based on this discussion):

    • Maps should be static, hand-drawn items.  It should be up to the player to accurately read the map and apply it to the world.  I think the maps from Thief: The Dark Project  would be a great place to start.
    • Looking at a map should stop your character, and take up most of your screen
    • Maps should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality and price.  Civilized areas should have more detailed maps easily available, while dungeons and the wilderness should have harder to obtain, less detailed maps.
    • Maps should be found in lore-friendly locations as well (Example: A dungeon map may drop from mobs like “The Orc Strategist” etc)
    • Maps obtained from different methods may have different information. The Shady Swashbuckler may sell you a low-quality map of Freeport, but it may have all the secret entrances identified. Maybe certain NPCs will sell you purposely bad maps to get you lost, or lead you to danger.
    • Compasses should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality
    • Maps should have weight and take up inventory slots. Potentially maps could have a storage ‘book’ that players could add to, like a quiver
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  A simple drawing tool to scribble notes or circle locations so that players can add information. These options could be increased by purchasing new cartography tools.  The cheapest allows black line drawing, the best allows multiple colors, shapes, brushes, etc
    • This leads to more questions:  Should edited maps be tradeable?  Should players be able to buy blank pieces of paper and draw their own maps from scratch and then sell those maps? (Personally, I think that would be a nice thing to have)
    My point is, maps should not be a default UI element.  They should be items in the game that players obtain, or potentially, create. 
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Sinist said:
    How about make maps an item players can craft, so exploration can be left to those who love to do it and they can profit from it. Then give players the ability to mark and label the map how they see fit.
    Why not sell maps in a game store for real cash?

    The point is having a requirement that people need to earn their progression. If people can buy it, be it in the player market or via real cash, it still cheapens the effort of the player who learns it. What is the point then? Might as well have a full RMT store, who cares then?
    This is a silly retort. What the hell does RMT have to do with player generated content? The point is some people like to explore and some don't. Having maps be a commodity to be crafted and traded by people who like to explore doesn't cheapen anything. 

    Guy goes off on random rant about RMT. =\

    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Scumm said:

    I'm interested in map mechanics in Pantheon.  Here are some ideas I have at the moment (subject to change based on this discussion):

    • Maps should be static, hand-drawn items.  It should be up to the player to accurately read the map and apply it to the world.  I think the maps from Thief: The Dark Project  would be a great place to start.
    • Looking at a map should stop your character, and take up most of your screen
    • Maps should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality and price.  Civilized areas should have more detailed maps easily available, while dungeons and the wilderness should have harder to obtain, less detailed maps.
    • Maps should be found in lore-friendly locations as well (Example: A dungeon map may drop from mobs like “The Orc Strategist” etc)
    • Maps obtained from different methods may have different information. The Shady Swashbuckler may sell you a low-quality map of Freeport, but it may have all the secret entrances identified. Maybe certain NPCs will sell you purposely bad maps to get you lost, or lead you to danger.
    • Compasses should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality
    • Maps should have weight and take up inventory slots. Potentially maps could have a storage ‘book’ that players could add to, like a quiver
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  A simple drawing tool to scribble notes or circle locations so that players can add information. These options could be increased by purchasing new cartography tools.  The cheapest allows black line drawing, the best allows multiple colors, shapes, brushes, etc
    • This leads to more questions:  Should edited maps be tradeable?  Should players be able to buy blank pieces of paper and draw their own maps from scratch and then sell those maps? (Personally, I think that would be a nice thing to have)
    My point is, maps should not be a default UI element.  They should be items in the game that players obtain, or potentially, create. 
    Great suggestions. My only condition to them would be that they are properly balanced via risk/reward (ie people can't easily gain a detailed map).

    Other than that, I think it is a good suggestion.

    My position is not about "the map" specifically, but the "game play" in such.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Scumm said:
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  
    I misread this initially as "edible." That would certainly be an idea. Map, get in my belly! 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Thanks. I agree that the cost/reward balance would need to be right. Also I think I agree with the idea of ditching the /loc. It was VERY useful,  but doesn't make a lot of sense from an RP perspective.  I'd be open to other ideas though.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited February 2016
    Sinist said:
    How about make maps an item players can craft, so exploration can be left to those who love to do it and they can profit from it. Then give players the ability to mark and label the map how they see fit.
    Why not sell maps in a game store for real cash?

    The point is having a requirement that people need to earn their progression. If people can buy it, be it in the player market or via real cash, it still cheapens the effort of the player who learns it. What is the point then? Might as well have a full RMT store, who cares then?
    This is a silly retort. What the hell does RMT have to do with player generated content? The point is some people like to explore and some don't. Having maps be a commodity to be crafted and traded by people who like to explore doesn't cheapen anything. 

    Guy goes off on random rant about RMT. =\

    RMT has everything to do with player trade.

    Don't think about the "real money", think about what "game currency buys". That is the true issue of RMT, not that someone pays real money for it.

    Look at it this way, take away player trade from the game. What does the player have to do to gain a specific item?

    They must go into the dungeon, and down into the lair of the specif named mob, get it to spawn and then get lucky to have that specific item drop.

    Now that is the required design for a player to obtain that item. That is, a player MUST do that task to obtain that specific item. They can not get it any other way, they must complete the quest, kill the mob, etc... to gain that item.

    Now add the player trade market.

    That item still has to be obtained via that above method, nothing has changed. What has changed is that a player can now bypass having to do that requirement and just pay game currency to obtain it. They didn't earn that item, they just bought it.

    Now look at RMT and what it provides for a player. A player goes out, pays real money and gets a bunch of currency from some gold farmer who spent a lot of time farming money (or working the trade market).

    Is the player cheating? It is relative... according to the game all they did was gain money that was acquired through legal game play. The only "illegal" activity is that the player is paying another "real money" to gain that currency. If they would have simply traded a flask of water for thousands of plat in a bad trade because the guy farming plat was ridiculously stupid, why.. that would be considered legitimate game play right?

    So according to the game, to the rules, real money is the problem here.

    I contest with that, I don't think real money is why it is cheating. It is the circumvention of the initial game play that is the cheating here.

    You see, to me, it doesn't matter whether the player paid plat they earned through mundane easy grinding or gimmick trade deals, it is that they are able to buy a reward without having to go through the trials that those who obtained that item had to. You see, they paid to "win" that item without having to earn it through its required design. That is, you can't get that item any other way by the games rules, you MUST enter that dungeon, catch that named up, and gain that drop. This is what the game requires to "win" that item. All the guy that buys it is doing is paying money to circumvent that requirement.

    So, whether the player buys it off a in game market or buys it off a RMT store, it is the same thing, both do not earn it via the games requirements, they just buy it via cash they obtained via mundane grinding, working the trade gimmicks, or in some cases... just buying it illegally online.

    Same thing. /shrug


  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited February 2016
    Scumm said:
    Thanks. I agree that the cost/reward balance would need to be right. Also I think I agree with the idea of ditching the /loc. It was VERY useful,  but doesn't make a lot of sense from an RP perspective.  I'd be open to other ideas though.
    I am sure there are other "in game" ways through skill or various indicators that you could adapt such a system to be useful to the player in game that is RP oriented, but not a standard to be abused as the /loc system was.

    I have no ideas off the top of my head, but the "concept" of some system that is interactive and relative to the players play seems plausible just considering it.
  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    I like a basic map/compass system.  I don't like the maps and compass systems that tell you where every resource node, quest giver, quest location, boss.... is.  Too much.  Make us find and remember these things.  Adds to the challenge.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    Scumm posted some good to exelent map ideas there.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    Scumm said:

    I'm interested in map mechanics in Pantheon.  Here are some ideas I have at the moment (subject to change based on this discussion):

    • Maps should be static, hand-drawn items.  It should be up to the player to accurately read the map and apply it to the world.  I think the maps from Thief: The Dark Project  would be a great place to start.
    • Looking at a map should stop your character, and take up most of your screen
    • Maps should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality and price.  Civilized areas should have more detailed maps easily available, while dungeons and the wilderness should have harder to obtain, less detailed maps.
    • Maps should be found in lore-friendly locations as well (Example: A dungeon map may drop from mobs like “The Orc Strategist” etc)
    • Maps obtained from different methods may have different information. The Shady Swashbuckler may sell you a low-quality map of Freeport, but it may have all the secret entrances identified. Maybe certain NPCs will sell you purposely bad maps to get you lost, or lead you to danger.
    • Compasses should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality
    • Maps should have weight and take up inventory slots. Potentially maps could have a storage ‘book’ that players could add to, like a quiver
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  A simple drawing tool to scribble notes or circle locations so that players can add information. These options could be increased by purchasing new cartography tools.  The cheapest allows black line drawing, the best allows multiple colors, shapes, brushes, etc
    • This leads to more questions:  Should edited maps be tradeable?  Should players be able to buy blank pieces of paper and draw their own maps from scratch and then sell those maps? (Personally, I think that would be a nice thing to have)
    My point is, maps should not be a default UI element.  They should be items in the game that players obtain, or potentially, create. 

    This would be an awesome implementation for maps. Not a HUD, but a fully immersive element of gameplay.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    edited February 2016
    Hrimnir said:
    [mod edit]
    Is this a response to my ideas?  I didn't think I was suggesting anything too controversial.  I thought most of the Pantheon community were against GPS mini-maps.  Short of implementing a complex 'Cartography' tradeskill, I thought this was a decent compromise.  

    The things I suggested weren't meant to be arbitrarily restrictive to make the game more hardcore.  They're meant to make the world more immersive and add a layer of depth to gameplay.  Maps are very useful, they should be earned.  In the grand scheme of things, buying a basic map of a newbie area from a merchant isn't much more challenging than buying a few pieces of cloth armor.    

    If GPS maps had to be in the game, I would rather see them created by players.  Maybe high-level Enchanters could enchant existing maps to show player or group location, or other POIs.  But I feel that automatically having a map as part of the default UI hurts the sense of mystery/exploration a lot of us are looking for.  We don't want to be chasing waypoints on a mini-map.

    As for the "Fog of War" suggestion others have made (sorry, I hate that name), I don't find it an appealing alternative.  Why should a player have a fully formed map just by walking around a zone?  Not only is it a small difference from being handed a completed map, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an Roleplay/Lore perspective.  I find it very similar to the idea of griffon towers that allow you to ride once you have walked to them.

    Anyway, sorry for the rant.  I've think I generally agree with most of your posts so I'm confused about what you take issue with here.  Unless you meant to make this post on the thread 'Spells should be typed..."  =)   
    Post edited by Vaross on
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    edited February 2016
    Scumm said:
    Hrimnir said:
    [mod edit]
    Is this a response to my ideas?  I didn't think I was suggesting anything too controversial.  I thought most of the Pantheon community were against GPS mini-maps.  Short of implementing a complex 'Cartography' tradeskill, I thought this was a decent compromise.  

    The things I suggested weren't meant to be arbitrarily restrictive to make the game more hardcore.  They're meant to make the world more immersive and add a layer of depth to gameplay.  Maps are very useful, they should be earned.  In the grand scheme of things, buying a basic map of a newbie area from a merchant isn't much more challenging than buying a few pieces of cloth armor.    

    If GPS maps had to be in the game, I would rather see them created by players.  Maybe high-level Enchanters could enchant existing maps to show player or group location, or other POIs.  But I feel that automatically having a map as part of the default UI hurts the sense of mystery/exploration a lot of us are looking for.  We don't want to be chasing waypoints on a mini-map.

    As for the "Fog of War" suggestion others have made (sorry, I hate that name), I don't find it an appealing alternative.  Why should a player have a fully formed map just by walking around a zone?  Not only is it a small difference from being handed a completed map, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an Roleplay/Lore perspective.  I find it very similar to the idea of griffon towers that allow you to ride once you have walked to them.

    Anyway, sorry for the rant.  I've think I generally agree with most of your posts so I'm confused about what you take issue with here.  Unless you meant to make this post on the thread 'Spells should be typed..."  =)   
    Nah, it was to Sinist original post.

    On topic, in my opinion, something akin to EQ is fine.  No minimap, no main map, but a location command or something along those lines.
    Post edited by Vaross on

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Mapping is fine,just create some plausible reason to why it exists outside of just pressing M and a map pops up.
    Create a cartography skill,or perhaps a quest where some npc hands you a parchment with a few terrain markers on the map and you just fill in the POI's.That is all i ask from any game,just give me some plausible realism and not a bunch of stuff that looks like computer code.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Gyva02Gyva02 Member RarePosts: 499
    What would your guy's opinion be to only the scout classes being able to see and have access to the cords? They would  then have a useful utility to share with their group... well at least for those players that didn't know where everything was... Just thinking along the lines of original EQ interdependence. 
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    Gyva02 said:
    What would your guy's opinion be to only the scout classes being able to see and have access to the cords? They would  then have a useful utility to share with their group... well at least for those players that didn't know where everything was... Just thinking along the lines of original EQ interdependence. 
    That's what the skill 'tracking' is for.
    If there's no tracking in Pantheon then sure, why not.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Gyva02 said:
    What would your guy's opinion be to only the scout classes being able to see and have access to the cords? They would  then have a useful utility to share with their group... well at least for those players that didn't know where everything was... Just thinking along the lines of original EQ interdependence. 
    It's an interesting idea.  It does make sense that certain classes would have better awareness of these kinds of things.  I'd be afraid of the response though.  People generally don't like having things taken away (especially if someone else gets to keep them).   

    Why do we have a /loc anyway?  I realize eq had it, but what purpose did it serve?  Does it make sense for gameplay?  What about lore/roleplay?

    It seems to me the biggest uses would be:
    • Spam it right before you die so you can find your corpse
    • If you had found the coordinates of a spawn from some website and wanted to hone in on it.
    Am I missing any other uses?  It's not as though the game ever tells you to go to some coordinates, it's strictly for players to share.  No NPC Quest-giver would say "Please help find my lost ring, around (-1231.00, 342.00)!" And as for finding your corpse, it is very useful but there are other systems in place.  Hire a bard or necro to find it (or a Ranger if they get that skill as they should!).  

    There must be a way to implement /loc as a gameplay feature and if not, maybe it's not necessary.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,690
    I've always thought that EQ1's /loc command was for reporting things to customer service -- things like where you had fallen into the landscape and were stuck.  I really don't believe that /loc was intended for the players to use.  But it got subverted for other purposes pretty quickly.

    I personally like to play with minimal maps, but I am aware that countless others can't function without a mini-map to guide them around.  As I posted earlier, I don't see any business reason for a company to not include a function to include as many customers as possible.

    Instead of catering to one subset of customers over another subset, please include an off-on feature.   Maybe if a game is going to award 'exploration XP'  (XP for visiting a new place), tie that to the Mini-map.  Map off, exploration XP awarded.  Map on, no exploration XP for you.  They would probably need a timer or proximity function to prevent people from rolling up, turning on the mini-map, then rolling that last 30 feet to get the award.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    I think /loc is one of those quality of life things that despite being "unrealistic" is a good thing.  Several points have been made.  If you're in a new area and you're about to die, being able to have a rough idea of where your corpse is a good thing so you're not getting killed 15 more times trying to find your corpse. This is a situation where its very easy to create a frustration level that makes a person say "fuck it" and just cancel their sub and quit the game.  There is a balance.  Does there need to be a full blown in game map with labelled points of interest and blah blah?  Probably not, that's going to the opposite end.

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.

    People need to keep in mind, we got to the point we're at in the MMO industry because we have been swinging the pendulum too far to one side.  That doesn't mean we have to have a knee jerk reaction and slap it all the way to the apex of the opposite side.  There is middle ground.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Hrimnir said:

    On the flip side, that doesn't mean you have to swing the pendulum to the other side to make it more "old school" or whatever.
    If the OP's suggestion were to be adopted, it would not be a return to "old school."  Rather, he proposes that the game be made more restrictive than for example EQ or Vanguard by eliminating not only any type of map, but also even a coordinates system. 

    Here's a screen shot from Meridian 59 (1995, before Everquest). And viola, it has a map. So whatever arguments are being advanced that the OP's suggestion is a return to "old school" are baseless. 


    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Here's Dark Eden (1997, also before EQ). With a map:


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  • itchmonitchmon Member RarePosts: 1,994
    Sinist said:
    I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".



    if you make a game with no maps, someone will come along, make a map add-on, and it will become "required" download for most people.  See also: EQ1.

    I'm all about limited map but it is completely reasonable to believe every character has a compass and a rough map.  if you recall the early days of LOTRO i'm thinking of that level of map usefulness.

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  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited February 2016
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 953
    Amathe said:
    What I hear you saying is that if you propose some pointless difficulty, that is pure gold. But if I propose one, it is delusional mockery. Are you afraid to learn a new language? A real, challenging language instead of just sitting and spamming orc or fairy as a simulation? Sounds like you don't want to play a game and just want to read your EZ-mode English and be entertained. Perhaps you are not as good at languages as I am and are afraid to compete? Perhaps you are afraid I will have an advantage over you that is unwarranted? Hmmmmm. 
    I agree with this, there are some things that just take the "no hand holding" thing to a stupid degree. Like others have said, it would be beyond stupid to not have a map, even if its pretty basic. I came from FFXI mainly so i might not be as "hardcore" as some people, but that game for me felt "hardcore" by a lot compared to just about anything i have played since then.

    They made it so the only map you really start off with is your starting city map and i think the zone right outside of it. Seems obvious to me why you would have a map of your starting town...you live there. Aside from that it makes just as much sense you dont have any other maps and need to earn/buy them. In XI they were not super crude, but by no means pinpoint accurate by any stretch (if you played when you had to go through the jungles in Kazham, you know how pretty much useless those maps could be).

    The maps were bought for a decent amount of the areas that it made sense to have them aka: right outside of towns or on the paths to different citys because you would assume many people would be traveling between them, so someone would have obviously made maps and sold them. The ones outside of that (at least for XI) you had to get them from opening coffers with keys in the zone (it was not easy tbh) and most of the time people went without them. I can see in Pantheon the coffer system not being usable, but i liked having to do something tough within the area itself to get it.

    For some people here the grid on the map, seeing your location and dots for your party might be too "easy" but comparatively speaking to anything these days it looks mostly difficult and old. I personally think there should be some way to tell where you and your group are, even if its not that easy, it will be a big deal early on for friends who want to gather and play together (since this game is supposed to be very group heavy). I we have no idea where one another are or there are not enough well established land marks, it will end up more of a frustration than a fun old school exploration. Grouping will be important here, id rather it not be a complete pain in the butt to make that a thing, especially those of us who will want to play with friends who might not all start in the same spot.  
  • FourplayFourplay Member UncommonPosts: 216
    Scumm said:

    I'm interested in map mechanics in Pantheon.  Here are some ideas I have at the moment (subject to change based on this discussion):

    • Maps should be static, hand-drawn items.  It should be up to the player to accurately read the map and apply it to the world.  I think the maps from Thief: The Dark Project  would be a great place to start.
    • Looking at a map should stop your character, and take up most of your screen
    • Maps should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality and price.  Civilized areas should have more detailed maps easily available, while dungeons and the wilderness should have harder to obtain, less detailed maps.
    • Maps should be found in lore-friendly locations as well (Example: A dungeon map may drop from mobs like “The Orc Strategist” etc)
    • Maps obtained from different methods may have different information. The Shady Swashbuckler may sell you a low-quality map of Freeport, but it may have all the secret entrances identified. Maybe certain NPCs will sell you purposely bad maps to get you lost, or lead you to danger.
    • Compasses should be purchasable from merchants at different levels of quality
    • Maps should have weight and take up inventory slots. Potentially maps could have a storage ‘book’ that players could add to, like a quiver
    • Maps could be editable in basic ways.  A simple drawing tool to scribble notes or circle locations so that players can add information. These options could be increased by purchasing new cartography tools.  The cheapest allows black line drawing, the best allows multiple colors, shapes, brushes, etc
    • This leads to more questions:  Should edited maps be tradeable?  Should players be able to buy blank pieces of paper and draw their own maps from scratch and then sell those maps? (Personally, I think that would be a nice thing to have)
    My point is, maps should not be a default UI element.  They should be items in the game that players obtain, or potentially, create. 
    2.Why take up most of the screen? Why not just have the game switch to first person mode and look at the map while still able to walk around. Then you could have gameplay mechanics for marking the terrain and such without taking you of the world. Wanna mark  a landmark, a treasure, a ruin? Just face the clear canvas map towards it and trace out your etchings.

    6.I don't like compasses in conjunction with a map. It then becomes a gps and people worry less about navigating by studying surroundings and more on following the pointy arrow. A general compass direction is fine as long as it doesn't give a distance on screen.

    Create is good.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Benjola said:
    My problem with /loc system is that locations of important nameds, quest spots or any kind of important spots on a map are easily given away on sites like Allakhazam, instead of players exploring themselves and imo that's lame.

    Think of Old Sebillis in EQ with no map or /loc info.
    Massive and very confusing dungeon.
    It would take a full group at least a week of exploring until they find all the nameds or even just to be able to navigate through and memorize it all.
    That's cool gameplay for me and the most persistent players are the ones that reap the awards first.
    Nothing to do with old or new school, 'hardcore' or 'carebearing', it's just gaming at it's best.

    I can live with a general map of some kind but a minimap or coordinates system is just an unneeded crutch, for me.
    Im sorry, but they're six of one half a dozen of the other.  There is no real difference. If there is an in game map system, people will just take screenshots of the map, put a big red dot on the map, upload it to a website, and voila, people know exactly where the mob spawns.

    At least a /loc requires the person to be running around spamming the button and actually having to navigate their way there without an visual cues.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

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