Why Old School Was So Freaking Awesome!!!

Gyva02

Really thought the Pantheon crowd would enjoy this video.
He does a real good job with this, enjoy  

Wizardry

EQ was ok for it's time,but imo it will never be nearly as good as FFXI that does the same thing and FFXI looks better as well.
Now if there was no FFXI,then yes i likely would show more of an interest in EQ.Personally i would have rather had a EQ2 similar to EQ1.
I'll come straight to the point,i like 5/6 man groups,i HATE raiding ideas.I also hate hiding Bosses away in some dungeon,i want all open world gaming.

One last point.....>>>>SUB CLASS,it vautls FFXI miles over top of EQ.

Gyva02

Now come on Wizardry as an old school player watching that video, it had to make you smile at least a couple times right  

Dullahan

Wizardry said:

EQ was ok for it's time,but imo it will never be nearly as good as FFXI that does the same thing and FFXI looks better as well.
Now if there was no FFXI,then yes i likely would show more of an interest in EQ.Personally i would have rather had a EQ2 similar to EQ1.
I'll come straight to the point,i like 5/6 man groups,i HATE raiding ideas.I also hate hiding Bosses away in some dungeon,i want all open world gaming.

One last point.....>>>>SUB CLASS,it vautls FFXI miles over top of EQ.

I'd rather play a game like FFXI over anything today, but not over a game like EQ. I have yet to meet 1 person that played EQ as an adult, in its heyday, that thought FFXI was a better game. Not even 1.

Also, screw graphics. The fact that it even enters the picture is kind of indicative of how you judge games.

saker

Have characters on 1999, it's good - highly recommended!

CalmOceans

The bobbing while levitating was removed on the official EQ server, I do miss that heh.

Amathe

Best line in the video: "we are not dick free." 

VorpalChicken28

Still playing EQive to this day, maybe not as ardently as I once did, but this year will be my 17th year, technically 18 if you count my time in beta.

Saw FFXI played by a friend for 4-5 hours, didn't grab me at the time, so never gave it a thought again.

EQ is still is one of the best MMORPG's around, I don't know what keeps me here but no other games seems as good, and I have tried a fair few over the years.

Gyva02

I just really love how most of the video is him explaining how things can go very wrong and how hard it is to acquire good items. But in the end it is that tuffness that makes the game so great, it is that tuffness that puts the value on what you accomplish and that is what's so wrong in todays easy street everyone's gonna win games... 

Cybersig211

Oldschool was so good because the concept of an RPG online with other people was brand spanking new.

Yes back then we all put up with a lot of stuff that wouldn't fly these days, and looking back that was part of the charm.

Problem was that these games got so expensive to make properly they had to cater to people who didn't want an RPG game, and so a lot of the RPG decision making, loss, and ability to make mistakes needed to be cut out to get a larger playerbase and make enough to justify the insane amount of resources needed to make a game run smooth with thousands of players per server at the same time.

Even the social interaction of the older games was totally different, and required, something you cant do these days.

Plus there was no "fck it I'm going back to XXX game"

Nostalgia is fun though, Id kill for a modern first gen mmorpg, problem is the people would ruin it, they wouldn't make their money back and the game would suffer long term, and everyone would whine about everything that made it unique.

immodium

Cybersig211 said:

Oldschool was so good because the concept of an RPG online with other people was brand spanking new.

Unfortunately they were not very good RPGs compared to single player games of the time. Hell, they weren't even good RPGs compared to today's MMOs.

Wizardry

Dullahan said:

Wizardry said:

EQ was ok for it's time,but imo it will never be nearly as good as FFXI that does the same thing and FFXI looks better as well.
Now if there was no FFXI,then yes i likely would show more of an interest in EQ.Personally i would have rather had a EQ2 similar to EQ1.
I'll come straight to the point,i like 5/6 man groups,i HATE raiding ideas.I also hate hiding Bosses away in some dungeon,i want all open world gaming.

One last point.....>>>>SUB CLASS,it vautls FFXI miles over top of EQ.

I'd rather play a game like FFXI over anything today, but not over a game like EQ. I have yet to meet 1 person that played EQ as an adult, in its heyday, that thought FFXI was a better game. Not even 1.

Also, screw graphics. The fact that it even enters the picture is kind of indicative of how you judge games.

First of all as MANY have done ,i never said graphics is the KEY to better gaming,You are making that assumption.My reference is that if a game is doing the EXACT same things,i would pick the game with better graphics AND the sub class system because it vaults the game over EQ.

I should also point out that YES the video did put a smile on and if you noticed,i said if no FFXI at the time,EQ was likely my go to game.

Now as to ref EQ players in general,i was there ,even at the time EQ2 arrived.What i saw was an extremely biased EQ crowd,they were complaining about EQ2 before they even reached level 2.so they obviously had it out for the game while showing no logic in their hate.Yes EQ played differently but it was the EXACT same game as EQ1,same Lore,same type classes,same type combat,even using some of the same quests.
My point here being,i doubt that same EQ crowd/fanbois would give any game a fair shake.

Me i tried EQ but liked fps's way better besides i did not have dsl yet to fully enjoy a game like EQ.I should also make one other VERY important point.....FFXI never seen a bug or glitch in my 13 years,SOE EQ>EQ2 to other games were badly known for terrible coding,bugs,glitches,poor optimization etc etc,so yeah my point will remain valid,FFXI was just an overall better product and i am not biased about ANY game,i simply choose the games i feel are doing things the best.

I should also make one more point,i have NEVER said FFXI is a perfect game,not by any stretch of the imagination,i could list many flaws/faults in design.

Dullahan

Wizardry said:

Now as to ref EQ players in general,i was there ,even at the time EQ2 arrived.What i saw was an extremely biased EQ crowd,they were complaining about EQ2 before they even reached level 2.so they obviously had it out for the game while showing no logic in their hate.Yes EQ played differently but it was the EXACT same game as EQ1,same Lore,same type classes,same type combat,even using some of the same quests.
My point here being,i doubt that same EQ crowd/fanbois would give any game a fair shake.

I don't really no how to respond to this, because the games were so different, no real explanation should be necessary. You seem to feel adamant about them being the same, so you clearly didn't really put much time into EQ so even if we gave you a 50 page thesis, you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate the differences.

Nilden

Reminds me of back in the day when there was no cash shop. When he mentions RMT being banned I am reminded of players ebay shaming and kicking people out of guilds who got found out for buying gold or ebaying characters.


Ah the good old days before they sold every shred of integrity in cash shops.

tawess

Meh. 

Never did play Everquest. I was knee-deep in UO and the transitioned over to SWG and CoH. 

Then again... I tend to not make enormous attachment to the entertainment i consume. So even if that was UO i would not feel much beyond "oh, neat".

Alioth

Dullahan said:

Wizardry said:

Now as to ref EQ players in general,i was there ,even at the time EQ2 arrived.What i saw was an extremely biased EQ crowd,they were complaining about EQ2 before they even reached level 2.so they obviously had it out for the game while showing no logic in their hate.Yes EQ played differently but it was the EXACT same game as EQ1,same Lore,same type classes,same type combat,even using some of the same quests.
My point here being,i doubt that same EQ crowd/fanbois would give any game a fair shake.

I don't really no how to respond to this, because the games were so different, no real explanation should be necessary. You seem to feel adamant about them being the same, so you clearly didn't really put much time into EQ so even if we gave you a 50 page thesis, you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate the differences.

As far as game play goes, I think they were more alike than different. The developers of FFXI came out and said that they sat their team down and played EQ and basically ripped the core game play mechanics, which is why the two play so similarly.

I don't think it's necessary to get into a EQ vs FFXI debate, as both games were cut from a similar mold. That mold has been tried/refined too little, and it would sure be nice to see some developers give it some love (I'm looking at you Pantheon). 

Nice vid, OP - it's always nice to see that interest in EQ style game-play is still alive. 

Thebeasttt

FFXI graphics and animation were way ahead of their time and aged incredibly well but it's still the diet coke of EQ Classic.

LackingMMO

To look at it from a different twist and not a "it was more challenging/required groups/community"

I think it was a lack of information about the game that made it thrilling for me. There were no mini guides, very few sites to tell you what to do or where to go(eq Atlas and maps) with very basic maps. Theres so many previews of games now that as soon as you jump in you know where to go and what to do because you've seen it played 20 times(not talking about games looking/feeling/playing alike).

I remember when the epic weapons first came out in eq1, the thrill, the challenge, the discussions of where to go and what to do next. Then the excitement of actually getting your hands on it.

Now you take all of that thrill of not knowing, the feeling of accomplishment then add in the chilling experience of running through zones that are truly dangerous with a harsh penalty. Having a group that tried to push our limits with pulling mobs, raids we would encounter or whatever we decided to do that day. Add in an awesome server (Innoruuk in eq1) This created an experience that kept me coming back to have that feeling again and again.

I have very limited knowledge of Black Desert, whats good or bad about it. How it really plays. Maybe ill give it a go and see if I can at least get a different feeling about a game other than "been there, done that"

LacedOpium

EQ was before my time but it's hard to argue against a game they dearly nicknamed Evercrack.

Dullahan

LackingMMO said:

To look at it from a different twist and not a "it was more challenging/required groups/community"

I think it was a lack of information about the game that made it thrilling for me. There were no mini guides, very few sites to tell you what to do or where to go(eq Atlas and maps) with very basic maps. Theres so many previews of games now that as soon as you jump in you know where to go and what to do because you've seen it played 20 times(not talking about games looking/feeling/playing alike).

I remember when the epic weapons first came out in eq1, the thrill, the challenge, the discussions of where to go and what to do next. Then the excitement of actually getting your hands on it.

Now you take all of that thrill of not knowing, the feeling of accomplishment then add in the chilling experience of running through zones that are truly dangerous with a harsh penalty. Having a group that tried to push our limits with pulling mobs, raids we would encounter or whatever we decided to do that day. Add in an awesome server (Innoruuk in eq1) This created an experience that kept me coming back to have that feeling again and again.

I have very limited knowledge of Black Desert, whats good or bad about it. How it really plays. Maybe ill give it a go and see if I can at least get a different feeling about a game other than "been there, done that"

I've spent quite a bit of time lately testing Black Desert. Its mostly going to feel like been there, done that. It does offer some new stuff but I'd say the new stuff is mediocre at best. The Amity system, Worker system, and stuff like Gardening are pretty shallow and gimmicky. Then you have the heavy emphasis on quest progression (with poor dialogue and shallow characters), crafting and combat which is really just more of the same.

I actually found Black Desert's combat to be the worst of any MMO I've ever played. It doesn't help that there is no real role system, which means next to no interdependence in combat or anything else for that matter. Its a single player RPG dream game in a persistent online world. The economy itself is controlled by the developers, so despite the focus on being "player driven", the concept is really lost to them.

I guess this is a bit of a derail, I just thought with Black Desert being mentioned, it was an opportunity of contrast the amazing games of the past with those which continue to move in the wrong direction.

LacedOpium

Dullahan said:

Its a single player RPG dream game in a persistent online world. 

Although you may not have intended it, describing BDO as the above will sound like sweet music to the ears of a good many.

Dullahan

LacedOpium said:

Dullahan said:

Its a single player RPG dream game in a persistent online world. 

Although you may not have intended it, describing BDO as the above will sound like sweet music to the ears of a good many.

Oh I know. I'm over being upset by games parading around as an MMORPG while being 90% single player RPG under the hood. If people out there enjoy it, then good on them.

The thing is, those games too are a dying breed. They simply can't hold the attention of even their target audience. How many of them have we seen recently that aren't a port from the far east? To me this is a telltale sign that the time is now for a classic massively multiplayer game to arise and show that not only are these concepts still wanted, but they are actually necessary to retain an audience for longer than a few months.

Tokken

Good memories.....but won't go back.  Go Pantheon!

Hrimnir

Wizardry said:

EQ was ok for it's time,but imo it will never be nearly as good as FFXI that does the same thing and FFXI looks better as well.
Now if there was no FFXI,then yes i likely would show more of an interest in EQ.Personally i would have rather had a EQ2 similar to EQ1.
I'll come straight to the point,i like 5/6 man groups,i HATE raiding ideas.I also hate hiding Bosses away in some dungeon,i want all open world gaming.

One last point.....>>>>SUB CLASS,it vautls FFXI miles over top of EQ.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.  I actually went to FFXI from EQ back in the day and I couldn't play FFXI for more than 4 months.  It was a beautiful game with awesome lore and a great IP.  But the mechanics were terrible.

My biggest issue was everything was just arbitrarily slow.  Walking/running was slow.  Attacking was slow, everything was just slow.  I mean I was literally swinging my sword once every 3 or 4 seconds, it was utterly stupid.

Then they had mechanics which were clearly put in specifically just to "slow" people down.  My biggest gripe was the quests you had to do every 5 levels just to even continue leveling.  Now, this wouldn't have been a problem except invariably you needed an item that only dropped from a handful of mobs in a very specific area of the world.  I think it was level 20 or 25 and I went to this area and im not even joking there were over 40 people just standing around the mob that dropped this and there was a list that was like 7 hours long of people just waiting their turn so they could kill this mob to be able to even keep leveling.

I'm sorry but FFXI is what popularized the idea of the "Asian grind mmo".  I remember a couple years after I quit I read that a Japanese guy had gotten every single job to lev 75 and he was the first person to do this.  And when they interviewed him he basically had him and another roommate or friend doing 8 hour shifts of playing the same character, so he was averaging 16 hours a day of play for 2.5 YEARS to do so.

I'm not saying the game was bad, but to say it was better than EQ I think is just being intellectually dishonest.  Once you remove the bias of how much you love the IP, objectively it was a worse game than EQ.

Hrimnir

Dullahan said:

LackingMMO said:

*snip*

I've spent quite a bit of time lately testing Black Desert. Its mostly going to feel like been there, done that. It does offer some new stuff but I'd say the new stuff is mediocre at best. The Amity system, Worker system, and stuff like Gardening are pretty shallow and gimmicky. Then you have the heavy emphasis on quest progression (with poor dialogue and shallow characters), crafting and combat which is really just more of the same.

I actually found Black Desert's combat to be the worst of any MMO I've ever played. It doesn't help that there is no real role system, which means next to no interdependence in combat or anything else for that matter. Its a single player RPG dream game in a persistent online world. The economy itself is controlled by the developers, so despite the focus on being "player driven", the concept is really lost to them.

I guess this is a bit of a derail, I just thought with Black Desert being mentioned, it was an opportunity of contrast the amazing games of the past with those which continue to move in the wrong direction.

You just described MMO hell for me.

Wizardry

Alioth said:

Dullahan said:

Wizardry said:

Now as to ref EQ players in general,i was there ,even at the time EQ2 arrived.What i saw was an extremely biased EQ crowd,they were complaining about EQ2 before they even reached level 2.so they obviously had it out for the game while showing no logic in their hate.Yes EQ played differently but it was the EXACT same game as EQ1,same Lore,same type classes,same type combat,even using some of the same quests.
My point here being,i doubt that same EQ crowd/fanbois would give any game a fair shake.

I don't really no how to respond to this, because the games were so different, no real explanation should be necessary. You seem to feel adamant about them being the same, so you clearly didn't really put much time into EQ so even if we gave you a 50 page thesis, you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate the differences.

As far as game play goes, I think they were more alike than different. The developers of FFXI came out and said that they sat their team down and played EQ and basically ripped the core game play mechanics, which is why the two play so similarly.

I don't think it's necessary to get into a EQ vs FFXI debate, as both games were cut from a similar mold. That mold has been tried/refined too little, and it would sure be nice to see some developers give it some love (I'm looking at you Pantheon). 

Nice vid, OP - it's always nice to see that interest in EQ style game-play is still alive. 

Finally yes i can agree 100%,your logic is sound and actually the EXACT same thing i am looking for.
I am not looking for FFXI or EQ,i am looking for a developer to take those great ideas and improve and ADD TO to give us a fresh new exhilarating game.

I do NOT want to see anymore linear questing WOW clones,we already have far too many of those and personally i prefer to forge my OWN game and not play connect the dots following the same path as everyone else.

Do i think Pantheon can pull it off,to be honest nope.
Reason is i saw the exact same flaws and same game design in both of Brad's games.Yes he added a bit to VG and improved the visuals a bit but overall ,same game same bugs etc etc.My point is that i believe Brad is 100% stuck on just another EQ build but trying his best to present it in a cheaper more cost effective fashion to sup[port a smaller budget.

I have a few basic needs,bring back grouping.LOSE the end game nonsense,create DIFFERENT classes not clones of each other,no questing for xp,no free xp for standing on new pixels of land,no hand holding ..period and lets see some player>player combos instead of soloing ideas..Other than that i am fine with many other EQ/EQ2 ideas.