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When will the genre truly evolve?

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    edited February 2016

    Except this topic is about MMOs, and mmorpg is not the only MMOs out there. 
    Let's say you visit a FPS forum.  A lack of innovation is complained about.  Several FPSes are cited by name.

    Is the complaint about:
    1. FPSes, or
    2. All Action Games?
    (This isn't a trick question and really is as obvious as it sounds, just as it's really obvious the OP is talking about MMORPGs specifically and not MMOs in general.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    edited February 2016
    Axehilt said:

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)
    You say many wise things and you seem to have a vast understanding on many things within gaming that I do not, but that statement shows a severe lack of understanding in classification theory.

    Every game that has ever existed or will ever exist belong to a genre. This is easy to show, by simply referring to the trivial genre which is the set of all possible combinations that fulfill the conditions of being a game.

    Furthermore, just because there is an existing genre containing A games at time t0, it doesn't mean that at a later time t1, when the amount of games in the genre is B>A, that the deviation from the average at t0 is larger than at t1 which is what stagnation would mean. 

    An easy way to show that is to consider the case which trivially has existed: A=1. Because when A=1 the deviation from the average is 0. At any later time when the set has more members, the deviation will be larger than 0 and thus mean not stagnation in comparison to the initial condition A=1. 

    Classification theory is one of the subjects one can study in mathematics and it is a well-developed field. It is better known as "set theory". 
  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    Evolution is a very slow and painful process. People hoping that the next MMO to come out will change everything are living in a dream world. WoW did it, but what WoW did was a bit of a fluke. It will never happen again.

    It's going to evolve over YEARS. Look at what's happened since 2004. Baby steps are being taken to offer players different experiences. When you have $50-100 million on the line, you don't go all in with an MMO that will "change the genre" or whatever. You chang a proven formula to differentiate yourself from the pack. You don't create an entirely new formula. That's a good way to go bankrupt. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,519
    Axehilt said:

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)
    You say many wise things and you seem to have a vast understanding on many things within gaming that I do not, but that statement shows a severe lack of understanding in classification theory.

    Every game that has ever existed or will ever exist belong to a genre. This is easy to show, by simply referring to the trivial genre which is the set of all possible combinations that fulfill the conditions of being a game.

    Furthermore, just because there is an existing genre containing A games at time t0, it doesn't mean that at a later time t1, when the amount of games in the genre is B>A, that the deviation from the average at t0 is larger than at t1 which is what stagnation would mean. 

    An easy way to show that is to consider the case which trivially has existed: A=1. Because when A=1 the deviation from the average is 0. At any later time when the set has more members, the deviation will be larger than 0 and thus mean not stagnation in comparison to the initial condition A=1. 

    Classification theory is one of the subjects one can study in mathematics and it is a well-developed field. It is better known as "set theory". 
    If you are debating math concepts in a MMORPG. forum you are clearly doing it wrong. Go drink a 6 pack or something to get in the proper frame of mind. 

     :p 

    Set theory indeed....not in these forums Mr.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • MikePaladinMikePaladin Member UncommonPosts: 592
    Never it's not profitable

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    laserit said:

    Maybe the OP should clarify. Because when I read it, I definitely get the impression that the OP is talking MMORPG's
    May be he should. But clearly he said "MMO", not "MMORPG" in his first post.

    Plus, this site is named "MMORPG.COM" .. guess what .. the game list contains MMOs too. It is silly to confine a discussion of evolution to mmorpg, a very narrow genre, when it can easily evolve into something else (like The Division).
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    edited February 2016
    You say many wise things and you seem to have a vast understanding on many things within gaming that I do not, but that statement shows a severe lack of understanding in classification theory.

    Every game that has ever existed or will ever exist belong to a genre. This is easy to show, by simply referring to the trivial genre which is the set of all possible combinations that fulfill the conditions of being a game.

    Furthermore, just because there is an existing genre containing A games at time t0, it doesn't mean that at a later time t1, when the amount of games in the genre is B>A, that the deviation from the average at t0 is larger than at t1 which is what stagnation would mean. 

    An easy way to show that is to consider the case which trivially has existed: A=1. Because when A=1 the deviation from the average is 0. At any later time when the set has more members, the deviation will be larger than 0 and thus mean not stagnation in comparison to the initial condition A=1. 

    Classification theory is one of the subjects one can study in mathematics and it is a well-developed field. It is better known as "set theory". 
    It's not about belonging to any genre, but belonging to a specific genre.

    Genres are a definition of a subset of things.  To be considered part of that subset, there's a set of parameters.  If you fit those parameters, you're considered part of that genre.  (Though to dive deeper on this, you have to fit those parameters better than the parameters of any other genre -- which is why Skyrim is considered an RPG instead of a FPS, even though it has FPS style aiming.)

    Those parameters are the "walls" of the genre.  If you innovate too much, you stray outside the walls. You're no longer part of that genre, and instead part of another genre.

    When MOBAs removed resource management, managing lots of troops, and tech tree progression, they strayed far enough outside the walls of the RTS genre that they spawned their own new genre.

    So genres by their nature always imply a finite cap on innovation, because once you innovate too much you're no longer considered part of that genre.  Instead, you're another genre.

    So someone seeking innovation can find it in a game (which will be part of a genre), but someone seeking lots of innovation in MMORPGs cannot find it (because with too much innovation, it will cease to be an MMORPG.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Axehilt said:


    Those parameters are the "walls" of the genre.  If you innovate too much, you stray outside the walls. You're no longer part of that genre, and instead part of another genre.

    So someone seeking innovation can find it in a game (which will be part of a genre), but someone seeking lots of innovation in MMORPGs cannot find it (because with too much innovation, it will cease to be an MMORPG.)
    Yeh. So the discussion of evolution of MMOs should include other genre, simply because too much innovation will "evolve" MMOs into something else. 


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Axehilt said:
    Actually RTS had a child called MOBA.  I would say outside of Destiny and the like are some evolution. 
    Yeah, but MOBAs aren't RTSes.  Just as action MMORPGs are likely to eventually break away from standard MMORPGs (because genres exist primarily to differentiate player tastes in specific types of games, and as action MMORPGs become more actiony there is a significant chunk of players who dislike that type of gameplay, just like happened with RPGs and ARPGs.)

    "Some evolution"?  Like what?  Name something specific and (as I mentioned before) you'll have named an innovation comparable to the innovation that exists in MMORPGs currently.
    RTS to MOBA literally is evolution though.  And in many cases they are/were literally RTS that have been streamlined.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,879
    When someone decides to make a game that they themselves want to play and not what they think will just sell.

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    RTS to MOBA literally is evolution though.  And in many cases they are/were literally RTS that have been streamlined.
    Do you want non-MMORPGs?  

    If so, those exist.  Go play em!

    Or maybe you're implying is that there is some not-yet-existing non-MMORPG that you want.  What are the specific mechanics that game has?  Can't describe them?  Well are you sure you want that specific-yet-nebulous non-MMORPG?

    What mechanics would an MMORPG-derived non-MMORPG genre even have that you could care so much about?  Remember that in the case of MOBAs the main shared similarities with the original genre are the camera angle and controls.  So it's not like the jump from RTS to MOBA retained a lot of the original genre or the original players.  (And so why would you assume a jump from MMORPGs to whatever you're hoping for would even appeal to you?)

    No, all of that is way beyond what the OP was thinking. The thread is way simpler.  It's just the typical generic "I want innovation" mantra that a vocal minority makes while few players actually buy it (warning: obnoxious youtube personality.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Axehilt said:
    You say many wise things and you seem to have a vast understanding on many things within gaming that I do not, but that statement shows a severe lack of understanding in classification theory.

    Every game that has ever existed or will ever exist belong to a genre. This is easy to show, by simply referring to the trivial genre which is the set of all possible combinations that fulfill the conditions of being a game.

    Furthermore, just because there is an existing genre containing A games at time t0, it doesn't mean that at a later time t1, when the amount of games in the genre is B>A, that the deviation from the average at t0 is larger than at t1 which is what stagnation would mean. 

    An easy way to show that is to consider the case which trivially has existed: A=1. Because when A=1 the deviation from the average is 0. At any later time when the set has more members, the deviation will be larger than 0 and thus mean not stagnation in comparison to the initial condition A=1. 

    Classification theory is one of the subjects one can study in mathematics and it is a well-developed field. It is better known as "set theory". 
    It's not about belonging to any genre, but belonging to a specific genre.

    Genres are a definition of a subset of things.  To be considered part of that subset, there's a set of parameters.  If you fit those parameters, you're considered part of that genre.  (Though to dive deeper on this, you have to fit those parameters better than the parameters of any other genre -- which is why Skyrim is considered an RPG instead of a FPS, even though it has FPS style aiming.)

    Those parameters are the "walls" of the genre.  If you innovate too much, you stray outside the walls. You're no longer part of that genre, and instead part of another genre.

    When MOBAs removed resource management, managing lots of troops, and tech tree progression, they strayed far enough outside the walls of the RTS genre that they spawned their own new genre.

    So genres by their nature always imply a finite cap on innovation, because once you innovate too much you're no longer considered part of that genre.  Instead, you're another genre.

    So someone seeking innovation can find it in a game (which will be part of a genre), but someone seeking lots of innovation in MMORPGs cannot find it (because with too much innovation, it will cease to be an MMORPG.)

    If genres are per definition a subset of things,then you can create a rather trivial one by selecting a game X, and then forming the set of "every game except  game X". That genre would per definition be a subset  (well, to be more specific a "proper" subset, since a trivial subset is the set itself) of "all games" and it would fulfill the parameters of both "being a game" but as well as the condition of "every game except game X". 

    Since there exists so many games, it is though redundant to require a genre to be a proper subset, since you can choose game X to be a very old game that barely anyone plays. It is therefore better to just require any subgenre to be a proper subset, while not set a such limitation on genre.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    If genres are per definition a subset of things,then you can create a rather trivial one by selecting a game X, and then forming the set of "every game except  game X". That genre would per definition be a subset  (well, to be more specific a "proper" subset, since a trivial subset is the set itself) of "all games" and it would fulfill the parameters of both "being a game" but as well as the condition of "every game except game X". 

    Since there exists so many games, it is though redundant to require a genre to be a proper subset, since you can choose game X to be a very old game that barely anyone plays. It is therefore better to just require any subgenre to be a proper subset, while not set a such limitation on genre.
    But we're not talking about a theoretical genre which encompasses all games.  We're talking about a specific genre, MMORPGs, and pointing out that if you innovate too much you'll no longer be an MMORPG because you'll have pushed beyond the bounds of what's considered an MMORPG.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Yeh. So the discussion of evolution of MMOs should include other genre, simply because too much innovation will "evolve" MMOs into something else. 
    But given that RTS players don't necessarily have a clean overlap with MOBA players, why would you even expect MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre that hasn't even been invented yet?

    Why wouldn't those players simply experiment with all the genre variety which already exists in the many non-MMORPG genres?

    Generally people just aren't aware that they want a product that doesn't exist yet, because it doesn't exist yet.  So the assumption that MMORPGs are the right genre which will blossom into an even more desired genre is really odd.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Axehilt said:

    Yeh. So the discussion of evolution of MMOs should include other genre, simply because too much innovation will "evolve" MMOs into something else. 
    But given that RTS players don't necessarily have a clean overlap with MOBA players, why would you even expect MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre that hasn't even been invented yet?


    Who said "MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre"?

    I simply point out that MMOs can evolve into other genres, and it certainly is part of the discussions. MMORPGs don't have to play the new games. They can stick to the old (and still running) games, or find something else to do. No one says the new games are catered to them.

    In fact, isn't the audience of MMOs change too? You don't think today's mainstream games are catered to the hardcore UO or EQ players, do you?
  • KopogeroKopogero Member UncommonPosts: 1,685
    The genre has evolved into being more cheap and free, devolved in everything else like quality and longevity. I wanna see more AAA games that are unique as well as not being afraid to ask $20-25 monthly sub for delivering superior quality and avoiding the cash shops.

    image

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Kopogero said:
    The genre has evolved into being more cheap and free, devolved in everything else like quality and longevity. I wanna see more AAA games that are unique as well as not being afraid to ask $20-25 monthly sub for delivering superior quality and avoiding the cash shops.
    There is no reason to not do both.  Only if you have it done on principal. Not sure a AAA has that option.  It would be nice to have a server or two that doesn't have cash shops though.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Who said "MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre"?

    I simply point out that MMOs can evolve into other genres, and it certainly is part of the discussions. MMORPGs don't have to play the new games. They can stick to the old (and still running) games, or find something else to do. No one says the new games are catered to them.

    In fact, isn't the audience of MMOs change too? You don't think today's mainstream games are catered to the hardcore UO or EQ players, do you?
    You didn't simply point out MMORPGs can evolve into other genres. I did that.

    You said discussion should include non-MMORPG genres.  But given these are MMORPG players on an MMORPG forum talking about MMORPGs, there's not really an incentive for them to discuss a non-existent genre which very likely wouldn't appeal to them.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Axehilt said:
    Who said "MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre"?

    I simply point out that MMOs can evolve into other genres, and it certainly is part of the discussions. MMORPGs don't have to play the new games. They can stick to the old (and still running) games, or find something else to do. No one says the new games are catered to them.

    In fact, isn't the audience of MMOs change too? You don't think today's mainstream games are catered to the hardcore UO or EQ players, do you?
    You didn't simply point out MMORPGs can evolve into other genres. I did that.

    You said discussion should include non-MMORPG genres.  But given these are MMORPG players on an MMORPG forum talking about MMORPGs, there's not really an incentive for them to discuss a non-existent genre which very likely wouldn't appeal to them.
    well .. this site is not mmorpg only .. the game list includes ARPGs and instanced pvp MMOs. In fact, games like D3, and PoE are mentioned often.

    If you go to the topic about what people are playing now, most game listed are NOT MMORPGs. So clearly this place does not only consist of MMORPG players, and other games are being discussed.


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Axehilt said:
    Who said "MMORPG players to demand a non-MMORPG genre"?

    I simply point out that MMOs can evolve into other genres, and it certainly is part of the discussions. MMORPGs don't have to play the new games. They can stick to the old (and still running) games, or find something else to do. No one says the new games are catered to them.

    In fact, isn't the audience of MMOs change too? You don't think today's mainstream games are catered to the hardcore UO or EQ players, do you?
    You didn't simply point out MMORPGs can evolve into other genres. I did that.

    You said discussion should include non-MMORPG genres.  But given these are MMORPG players on an MMORPG forum talking about MMORPGs, there's not really an incentive for them to discuss a non-existent genre which very likely wouldn't appeal to them.
    The genre has branched off into MMO like coop games like Destiny and Division.  
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772

    The genre has branched off into MMO like coop games like Destiny and Division.  
    Yeh .. and we can also throw in all the instanced pvp games like World of Tanks. In fact, the "genre" is no longer homogeneous like before. 
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    well .. this site is not mmorpg only .. the game list includes ARPGs and instanced pvp MMOs. In fact, games like D3, and PoE are mentioned often.

    If you go to the topic about what people are playing now, most game listed are NOT MMORPGs. So clearly this place does not only consist of MMORPG players, and other games are being discussed.
    Uh, right.  And surely you recognize how none of what you're saying here has any relevance to this thread, which is clearly about MMORPG innovation, and clearly not about a non-MMORPG genre that would spawn out of excessive innovation.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,622
    SO i was watching a video on TESO and the Wrobel the combat designer.How that pertains to this topic is while watching something hit me that usually reminds me of why i get bored with gaming.

    The problem with ALL games and why they are always going to be held back is gaming is nothing more than math.It doesn't matter what you do or want to do,it is always math formulas calculating everything.If say Wrobel wants to add 50 defense or 50 attack,that is what it is,no variances,just simple math.

    It really doesn't even matter what weapon you are holding,you could be holding nothing,it is always once again just simple math formulas.Obviously this is why so many want or need to have their manual aiming,it sort of adds better realism to the game play as well as pvp instead of pve because again it creates more human element than simple math formulas.

    Problem is you need both to make a game and the math side of things will never be good enough.Players will always figure out  the math and USUALLY it involves min/max stats.This is why i detest point allotment systems,all your doing is fiddling with math again,it changes nothing at all.

    What it comes down to is we need lots of systems and abilities that don't involve math but even then we end up with does it stick,does it fail,for how long does it stick yep again MATH.In real life damage,movement,avoidance is mostly determined by the human element,factors that for the most part cannot be recreated in a video game.Even manual aiming is just a mouse on a mouse pad,that is no where near a realistic human element.
    It all comes back to that aged computer factor that it is nothing more than 0's and 1's...switches.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    The genre has branched off into MMO like coop games like Destiny and Division.  
    Destiny has no MMO-like traits.  It has RPG traits.  It's a FPS with loot.  The Division is barely past that, since it doesn't have a small portion of gameplay which is actually an MMO, but with both FPSes they're mostly just branched off FPSes rather than MMORPGs.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Yeh .. and we can also throw in all the instanced pvp games like World of Tanks. In fact, the "genre" is no longer homogeneous like before. 
    MMO isn't "the genre".

    MMO isn't a genre.

    MMORPG is a genre.  It still means the same core set of traits it always has (except early on, when the games actually didn't match the "RPG" part of their acronym as closely as they do now) which naturally implies a certain amount of homogenization.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

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