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When will the genre truly evolve?

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  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited February 2016
    The genre already has evolved. Most of us just to refuse to acknowledge that the best developers have (already) moved on to other things.

    The derivative artists, the perennial sequel-makers, we still have those guys. But they don't produce much originality.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    The genre already has evolved. Most of us just to refuse to acknowledge that the best developers have (already) moved on to other things.

    The derivative artists, the perennial sequel-makers, we still have those guys. But they don't produce much originality.
    It's not all on the developers.  You have to have money and creative freedom.
  • DrecapzDrecapz Member UncommonPosts: 38
    When will the genre evolve? When focus is shifted from combat to social interaction. When developers/publishers or whoever is fronting the bill realize that you can't simply make an "MMORPG" like any other game... you must develop a virtual world vs a 'game world'
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    edited February 2016
    Genres stagnate. 

    Name the biggest innovation in FPS or RTS games in the last decade.  You have named an innovation of basically the same magnitude as anything in MMORPGs.

    Granted FPS and RTS games are smaller and cheaper to make, so you might actually name something somewhat more innovative.

    But the point is that if you actually care about innovation you're going to play the vast variety of indie titles which are out there innovating (and these won't be MMORPGs but other genres.) You won't find that level of innovation in MMORPGs because it's an established genre.

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VelifaxVelifax Member UncommonPosts: 413
    I see it as having evolved quite nicely. Just not in my preferred direction.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,564
    Axehilt said:
    Genres stagnate. 

    Name the biggest innovation in FPS or RTS games in the last decade.  You have named an innovation of basically the same magnitude as anything in MMORPGs.

    Granted FPS and RTS games are smaller and cheaper to make, so you might actually name something somewhat more innovative.

    But the point is that if you actually care about innovation you're going to play the vast variety of indie titles which are out there innovating (and these won't be MMORPGs but other genres.) You won't find that level of innovation in MMORPGs because it's an established genre.

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)

    If a game makes a radical change from a genre, then I don't think that's an evolution of the genre. It's a new genre. At least that's how I see it.

    Of course a game might fall in the middle, radical change but still "same" enough to qualify as the old genre.
    That would be something like, ohhh, I don't know......a great Sandbox MMORPG with superior socially and worldly interactions.

    Minecraft would be an example of Multiplayer online games advancing in the worldly interactive part, and still staying in it's genre. An evolution widely acclaimed as moving that genre forwards.

    Where as the MOBA's created a new genre. We even called them by a different name.

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,564
    Velifax said:
    I see it as having evolved quite nicely. Just not in my preferred direction.
    Well, it's stagnated. How many years now has WoW been on top? Even as it loses players?

    Once upon a time....

  • DeddmeatDeddmeat Member UncommonPosts: 385
    I think the biggest problem is Time .. by that i mean the Time the player is willing to invest.  It used to be that players would happily spend humungous amounts of time levelling one character, then do exactly the same (or near) on another .. probably why they got known as Time Sinks but nowadays a lot of players don't want to spend that amount of time playing and want things NOW

    So the genre seems to be evolving? more towards them 

    image

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,564
    Deddmeat said:
    I think the biggest problem is Time .. by that i mean the Time the player is willing to invest.  It used to be that players would happily spend humungous amounts of time levelling one character, then do exactly the same (or near) on another .. probably why they got known as Time Sinks but nowadays a lot of players don't want to spend that amount of time playing and want things NOW

    So the genre seems to be evolving? more towards them 
    That's a symptom of boredom.
    And the need for real evolution.

    Once upon a time....

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772


    Where as the MOBA's created a new genre. We even called them by a different name.
    But we (at least this website) do not call instanced pvp (e.g. WoT) or instanced pve (e.g. warframe) by a different genre. They are still called MMOs.

    Plus, what is wrong with MMO evolving into other genres?
  • uplink4242uplink4242 Member UncommonPosts: 257
    There hasn't really been much evolution in the past 10 years or so. Games like LoL, WoT, Dota, Diablo all came from a difference genre (arts) and never really started out from mmos to begin with.

    The only significant changes I've seen were the introduction of instances (Wow perfected this). Add some quest, skill and UI and graphics streamlining (which is essentially a byproduct of evolution itself to more modern standards) and that's about it really. Games like tera started pushing the button smashing action combat as a standard. Perhaps you could say GW2 innovated a little with their form of 'dynamic events and questing'. While that has been present for a while they were the only game to come along and straight up replace questing with that. Korean mmos also mastered the art of nickel diming cash shops (though this probably applies anywhere else as well).

    Some games like Eve pushed the barrier forward when it comes to sandboxes too, I guess, but overal the genre has been a bit stale for the past 10 years. 
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,168
    Velifax said:
    I see it as having evolved quite nicely. Just not in my preferred direction.
    Well, it's stagnated. How many years now has WoW been on top? Even as it loses players?
    But that is the thing... WoW have continued to evolve too. It is not the same as when it started (as we are told several times a week) and it keep evolving. Just because things does not take the path you with it to take does not equal stagnation. 

    In fact stagnation it seems is what most would like. That nothing ever changed... and if it changed it would be a regression back to a arbitrary nostalgic high point. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,564


    Where as the MOBA's created a new genre. We even called them by a different name.
    But we (at least this website) do not call instanced pvp (e.g. WoT) or instanced pve (e.g. warframe) by a different genre. They are still called MMOs.

    Plus, what is wrong with MMO evolving into other genres?
    Maybe you do, but that's been a hotly debated thing.
    Almost entirely fueled by you industry folks, who insist that we all call multi-player games "massively" just because.

    There's nothing wrong with the evolution into new genres. It's great. But it's not about MMO's anymore when it does.

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,564
    tawess said:
    Velifax said:
    I see it as having evolved quite nicely. Just not in my preferred direction.
    Well, it's stagnated. How many years now has WoW been on top? Even as it loses players?
    But that is the thing... WoW have continued to evolve too. It is not the same as when it started (as we are told several times a week) and it keep evolving. Just because things does not take the path you with it to take does not equal stagnation. 

    In fact stagnation it seems is what most would like. That nothing ever changed... and if it changed it would be a regression back to a arbitrary nostalgic high point. 
    Really? WoW's player base is shrinking, and you don't think it's stagnating?

    You think changes to a game is equal to evolution of the genre?
    I think it is fair to say that, for example, WoW's grouping system has evolved.
    But that doesn't equate to the genre evolving. That's more of a fine tuning in one direction sort of thing than a "true evolution".

    I expect you Themepark lovers who don't want to see competition from a true evolution will debate on and on about the meanings of all these comments, in hopes of "stagnating" true evolution for a longer period of time.
    But that's your own thing.

    Once upon a time....

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    Axehilt said:
    Genres stagnate. 

    Name the biggest innovation in FPS or RTS games in the last decade.  You have named an innovation of basically the same magnitude as anything in MMORPGs.

    Granted FPS and RTS games are smaller and cheaper to make, so you might actually name something somewhat more innovative.

    But the point is that if you actually care about innovation you're going to play the vast variety of indie titles which are out there innovating (and these won't be MMORPGs but other genres.) You won't find that level of innovation in MMORPGs because it's an established genre.

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)
    One observation, in newer titles they seem to outsell their predecessors,  doesnt seem to be the case in MMOs sales.

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Kyleran said:
    One observation, in newer titles they seem to outsell their predecessors,  doesnt seem to be the case in MMOs sales.
    Well looking at it by box sales will seem more misleading than by revenue.

    MMORPGs are games-as-a-service.  This means the development work that goes into WOW isn't going into WOW 3: BlackRocks 3 as the seventh game in a long-running series of releases.  It's going into WOW and its expansion packs, and those are making reasonably good revenue.

    (Whereas FPSes are standard game releases where each existing game is abandoned rather quickly with limited post-launch support, so they're optimizing for box sales.  Well, it's not this black-and-white really as plenty of FPSes do operate as a service.  But to me it feels like they're chasing box sales far more than MMORPGs do, and even the best-supported FPSes are supported more weakly than MMORPGs' ongoing support.)

    But although this makes the genres far more similar to one another, I'd agree that FPSes are sustaining growth better than MMORPGs.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Axehilt said:

    Well looking at it by box sales will seem more misleading than by revenue.

    Yeh .. not only shooters, but also MOBAs.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/

    These are top 10 2014 numbers. None of the top 10 games are released in 2014. 
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,122
    March 11, 2014
    Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft, Initial release date

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Yeh .. not only shooters, but also MOBAs.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/

    These are top 10 2014 numbers. None of the top 10 games are released in 2014. 
    Nobody's making an argument that MMORPGs are the most popular genre, so pointing out that other genres make more money isn't terribly appropriate.  It's about comparing growth/health of each genre.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Axehilt said:
    Genres stagnate. 

    Name the biggest innovation in FPS or RTS games in the last decade.  You have named an innovation of basically the same magnitude as anything in MMORPGs.

    Granted FPS and RTS games are smaller and cheaper to make, so you might actually name something somewhat more innovative.

    But the point is that if you actually care about innovation you're going to play the vast variety of indie titles which are out there innovating (and these won't be MMORPGs but other genres.) You won't find that level of innovation in MMORPGs because it's an established genre.

    Really even just being a genre implies a certain stagnation. (It implies that instead of being radically different from other games, the game shares a lot of similarities with a set of existing games.)
    Actually RTS had a child called MOBA.  I would say outside of Destiny and the like are some evolution. 
  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619
    When server technology allows hundreds of thousands of people to all be on the same, persistent world and make permanent changes to it in real time.  

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Axehilt said:
    Yeh .. not only shooters, but also MOBAs.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/

    These are top 10 2014 numbers. None of the top 10 games are released in 2014. 
    Nobody's making an argument that MMORPGs are the most popular genre, so pointing out that other genres make more money isn't terribly appropriate.  It's about comparing growth/health of each genre.
    Except this topic is about MMOs, and mmorpg is not the only MMOs out there. 
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,166
    Axehilt said:
    Yeh .. not only shooters, but also MOBAs.

    http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/

    These are top 10 2014 numbers. None of the top 10 games are released in 2014. 
    Nobody's making an argument that MMORPGs are the most popular genre, so pointing out that other genres make more money isn't terribly appropriate.  It's about comparing growth/health of each genre.
    Except this topic is about MMOs, and mmorpg is not the only MMOs out there. 
    Maybe the OP should clarify. Because when I read it, I definitely get the impression that the OP is talking MMORPG's

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Actually RTS had a child called MOBA.  I would say outside of Destiny and the like are some evolution. 
    Yeah, but MOBAs aren't RTSes.  Just as action MMORPGs are likely to eventually break away from standard MMORPGs (because genres exist primarily to differentiate player tastes in specific types of games, and as action MMORPGs become more actiony there is a significant chunk of players who dislike that type of gameplay, just like happened with RPGs and ARPGs.)

    "Some evolution"?  Like what?  Name something specific and (as I mentioned before) you'll have named an innovation comparable to the innovation that exists in MMORPGs currently.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited February 2016
    Kyleran said:
    One observation, in newer titles they seem to outsell their predecessors,  doesnt seem to be the case in MMOs sales.
    Unless you exclude the obvious outlier. The sales of (say) SWTOR easily eclipsed both Everquest and SWG, for example. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Wildstar (a game we often talk about as a total dud around these parts) did, as well.

    Want to try and say GW2 wasn't a financial success?

    OTOH, why is Lineage I still so freakin' profitable(?!) I want a game in the Korean market!
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