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When will the genre truly evolve?

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,810
    SEANMCAD said:
    are you arguing with me or are you arguing with Drawins theory of survival of the fittest so that you can feel he is wrong and as a result redefine 'evolution' to mean any change regardless

    I dont think that is a debate I am going to get into. i am going to go with the meaning of evolution that is more commonly understood as it could apply to the comment of 'mmos evolving'

    thanks

    for the record that means...no..stop..not talking to ''that guy'
    Genetics made Darwin's theory obsolote quite a while ago...
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,780
    SEANMCAD said:
    Wurm Online

    People need to stop looking to AAA for answers, AAA on a good day are followers not leaders
    Everything about Wrum looks great on paper......
    Then you play it.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Gdemami said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    are you arguing with me or are you arguing with Drawins theory of survival of the fittest so that you can feel he is wrong and as a result redefine 'evolution' to mean any change regardless

    I dont think that is a debate I am going to get into. i am going to go with the meaning of evolution that is more commonly understood as it could apply to the comment of 'mmos evolving'

    thanks

    for the record that means...no..stop..not talking to ''that guy'
    Genetics made Darwin's theory obsolote quite a while ago...
    fine..

    then can we just replace what the OP said as 'improve' instead of 'evolve' and get back on topic for all intents and purposes?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:
    Wurm Online

    People need to stop looking to AAA for answers, AAA on a good day are followers not leaders
    Everything about Wrum looks great on paper......
    Then you play it.
    and its fun. I most likely have thousand or more hours in it. not sure what you are saying

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,635
    DKLond said:
    In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.

    Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.

    Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.

    I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.

    What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
    The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre.
    The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world.
    THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    kjempff said:
    DKLond said:
    In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.

    Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.

    Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.

    I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.

    What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
    The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre.
    The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world.
    THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
    I wold say that is a new 'improvement' on MMO but not the only one. Just the only one in the AAA market

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,810
    kjempff said:
    The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre.
    The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world.
    THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
    imho, that is just a myth.

    It all sounds good and all but when push comes to shove, you will find out that the costs to make such systems is as high or even higher than regular MMO content.

    There is likely only 1 example on the market - EVE Online and there are 300 people working on the game, thus it isn't particularly cheap to develop a sandbox game.

    The downside of "reusable systems" is repetitiveness, it is an inherited attribute of such systems. And there is other, and imo even more important factor - players themselves. They are consumers.  Once again we can use EVE Online as an example and see what happens when you stop producing more content - you lose players.

    I truly wonder if we will ever see any high budget MMO, I doubt it.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Gdemami said:
    kjempff said:
    The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre.
    The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world.
    THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
    imho, that is just a myth.

    It all sounds good and all but when push comes to shove, you will find out that the costs to make such systems is as high or even higher than regular MMO content.

    There is likely only 1 example on the market - EVE Online and there are 300 people working on the game, thus it isn't particularly cheap to develop a sandbox game.

    The downside of "reusable systems" is repetitiveness, it is an inherited attribute of such systems. And there is other, and imo even more important factor - players themselves. They are consumers.  Once again we can use EVE Online as an example and see what happens when you stop producing more content - you lose players.

    I truly wonder if we will ever see any high budget MMO, I doubt it.
    THIS is an example of 'armchair developer'

    anyway.. i just want to point out again that Wurm is a very open world sandbox game made basically by about 3 people.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,810
    SEANMCAD said:
    THIS is an example of 'armchair developer'

    anyway.. i just want to point out again that Wurm is a very open world sandbox game made basically by about 3 people.
    I am not the one saying "hire some low priced polishers"...
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited February 2016
    Gdemami said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    THIS is an example of 'armchair developer'

    anyway.. i just want to point out again that Wurm is a very open world sandbox game made basically by about 3 people.
    I am not the one saying "hire some low priced polishers"...
    ok break that down a bit

    3 people to build the game
    297 for HTML polish?

    really? you are being that guy?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,810
    edited February 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    ok break that down a bit

    3 people to build the game
    297 for HTML polish?

    really? you are being that guy?
    Please go Blizzard and show them how to do it, they are apparently doing it wrong....
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Gdemami said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    ok break that down a bit

    3 people to build the game
    297 for HTML polish?

    really? you are being that guy?
    Please go Blizzard and show them how to do it...
    I would LOVE to and could but I dont have to they just need to open their eyes is all


    but 297 HTML polishers? really? seriously?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    edited February 2016
    Never. It doesn't need to so long as we keep falling for the same crap over and over and giving them our money. It's happening all over. When money became king, and corporations started to rule, innovation pretty much stopped, except for tiny little baby steps so they can claim they are doing something truly new and dumb people keep falling for it. 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,417
    When you decompose MMORPGs to their basic components, they haven't evolved much from their tabletop roots.  Most all games still rely on conventions set in D&D -- HPs, levels, classes, etc.  Most of what has occurred has been automation, from Dice and Character sheets to CRPGs which automated many of the systems to MMORPGs which extended the story to multiple users at once.  The underlying systems are still the same core systems -- movement, gear, combat / magic and crafting.  I do not expect anything to evolve until some company challenges the conventions left over from their tabletop ancestors and rebuilds the core systems to accommodate these changes.  Then they can work at adding new abstracted systems to expand the core game functions beyond the same 4 systems that have existed since UO, AC, and EQ pushed the MUD/CRPG into graphical existence.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,162
    SEANMCAD said:
    could we end this silly debate of the word and just replace what he said with 'improving' instead of 'evolving' so that we can get back on topic?

    Don´t think that would do much good. Improved can be so very subjective that it renders the whole subject moot. 

    We can debate "good taste" till sometime after the end of time. But it would be pretty pointless since it is the most debated subject on the site. 


    But that is just my opinion, you are apparently of a different one. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited February 2016
    tawess said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    could we end this silly debate of the word and just replace what he said with 'improving' instead of 'evolving' so that we can get back on topic?

    Don´t think that would do much good. Improved can be so very subjective that it renders the whole subject moot. 

    We can debate "good taste" till sometime after the end of time. But it would be pretty pointless since it is the most debated subject on the site. 


    But that is just my opinion, you are apparently of a different one. 
    1. I think the 'subject' as you put it should be our understanding of what the OP is trying to say even if the specific words are incorrect. That (understanding ones intent) by the way is the key to communication. not diverting from the intent because of a misuse of a word

    2. his use of the word appears to be the same understood meaning that I took it as as well..oddd no?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • freegamesfreegames Member UncommonPosts: 240
    Games always change with additional features and merging of genres. VR in 2025, prepare for it to be real and mmos to change drastically then.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,162
    SEANMCAD said:
    tawess said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    could we end this silly debate of the word and just replace what he said with 'improving' instead of 'evolving' so that we can get back on topic?

    Don´t think that would do much good. Improved can be so very subjective that it renders the whole subject moot. 

    We can debate "good taste" till sometime after the end of time. But it would be pretty pointless since it is the most debated subject on the site. 


    But that is just my opinion, you are apparently of a different one. 
    1. I think the 'subject' as you put it should be our understanding of what the OP is trying to say even if the specific words are incorrect. That (understanding ones intent) by the way is the key to communication. not diverting from the intent because of a misuse of a word

    2. his use of the word appears to be the same understood meaning that I took it as as well..oddd no?

    I think everyone understood what the OP was saying.... That does not make his question any more interesting... And judging by the happy derail we got.... I´d say that statement carry some actual statistic weight. =P 

    after all did we really need another subjective dog pile of "X is better than Y because of Z" It is not like we do not have about 400 of those every day any way. =P 

    But by all means...


    Back on topic...


    Change comes with the money in the MMO sphere in this day and age. Everyone need a UPS to stick out of the moras. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    tawess said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    tawess said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    could we end this silly debate of the word and just replace what he said with 'improving' instead of 'evolving' so that we can get back on topic?

    Don´t think that would do much good. Improved can be so very subjective that it renders the whole subject moot. 

    We can debate "good taste" till sometime after the end of time. But it would be pretty pointless since it is the most debated subject on the site. 


    But that is just my opinion, you are apparently of a different one. 
    1. I think the 'subject' as you put it should be our understanding of what the OP is trying to say even if the specific words are incorrect. That (understanding ones intent) by the way is the key to communication. not diverting from the intent because of a misuse of a word

    2. his use of the word appears to be the same understood meaning that I took it as as well..oddd no?

    I think everyone understood what the OP was saying.... That does not make his question any more interesting... And judging by the happy derail we got.... I´d say that statement carry some actual statistic weight. =P 

    after all did we really need another subjective dog pile of "X is better than Y because of Z" It is not like we do not have about 400 of those every day any way. =P 

    But by all means...


    Back on topic...


    Change comes with the money in the MMO sphere in this day and age. Everyone need a UPS to stick out of the moras. 
    I have little to no idea what you are saying

    are you saying we shuld continue to discuss what he is asking? or are you saying we should disucss something completely different ? or just drop the thread?

    no idea, completely confused and I dont want to be unconfused. make it just go away please its too weird.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,549
    kjempff said:
    DKLond said:
    In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.

    Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.

    Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.

    I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.

    What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
    The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre.
    The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world.
    THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
    I could not agree more.
    Dynamic systems can provide dynamic change. That would keep the game world fresh.
    AI could be a huge factor here. But a "world AI" could be even bigger.

    Imagine NPC MOBs that change the game world by construction/destruction, propagate new numbers rather than simple spawns, seek new habitats for expansion including taking over dungeons from other MOBs, generate wars against player cities, etc.

    Imagine world AI (although AI may not be the right term) that slowly changes the flora and fawna in a natural way, causes earthquakes, rock slides, opens crevasses, uncovers ancient ruins, and compliments the NPC AI in the above paragraph.

    Once upon a time....

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,162
    SEANMCAD said:

    1: I have little to no idea what you are saying

    2: are you saying we shuld continue to discuss what he is asking? or are you saying we should disucss something completely different ? or just drop the thread?

    3: no idea, completely confused and I dont want to be unconfused. make it just go away please its too weird.

    1: That must be very inconvenient for you if it becomes a regular thing you face in society. =) 

    2: I am saying i personally feel there is no point in carrying on the discussion on when the genre will "improve" as "improve" is very subjective beyond a few very basic functions. I am also saying that i find the discussion around MMO evolution much more interesting. =)

    3: I feel it is good for you to face a little bit of weird every now and then... Expands your framework. 


    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    tawess said:

    1: That must be very inconvenient for you if it becomes a regular thing you face in society. =) 

    2: I am saying i personally feel there is no point in carrying on the discussion on when the genre will "improve" as "improve" is very subjective beyond a few very basic functions. I am also saying that i find the discussion around MMO evolution much more interesting. =)

    3: I feel it is good for you to face a little bit of weird every now and then... Expands your framework. 


    ok thanks!

    cheers

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    SEANMCAD said:


    then can we just replace what the OP said as 'improve' instead of 'evolve' and get back on topic for all intents and purposes?
    Sure ... MMOs have been greatly improved, because it got rid of virtual worlds, have more convenient features, and are more game-like? Happy?

    "improvement" is subjective .. you know. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    SEANMCAD said:


    then can we just replace what the OP said as 'improve' instead of 'evolve' and get back on topic for all intents and purposes?
    Sure ... MMOs have been greatly improved, because it got rid of virtual worlds, have more convenient features, and are more game-like? Happy?

    "improvement" is subjective .. you know. 
    yes we all know improvements are subject and thanks for taking it where most of us knew someone would but at least we are out of the muck and the mire of where we were eariler at least its a little bit of 'progress' out of the Sh pile

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 661
    The biggest evolution of the genre took place with transition from text-based MUDs to online multiplayer games with graphics. My hunch why so many people are frustrated with the genre is that the steady rise of computational power in PC hardware stopped correlating with evolution of gameplay features after that transition. I would theorise that the exponential growth of this correlation was a lot stronger from 1995 to 2005 than from 2005 to 2015. Seeing our PC computers becoming more powerful but game features of MMORPGs more limited has been a frustrating controversy. In the future a major leap in evolution of the genre might be caused by serious breakthrough in artificial intelligence or transition from using displays to VR/AR technology or neural helmets.





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