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Visionary Realms' approach to "the grind"

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  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413

    I really think that the perception of grind is what's most important.  I think the whole "gotta get to endgame" mentality was created as a combination of:

    1A. Too fast leveling times

    1B. Solo questing/quest hubs 

    2. Items being too common/easy to get

    3. Fast/easy travel.


    Primarily the main issue was 1, followed by 2, followed by 3

    I'll explain point 1A using an example.  When I started playing WoW in 2005, one of the clearest memories I have was being in my late teens, early 20's (level wise I mean) and my friend and I going to a dungeon near stormwind, deadmines or something like that.  It was actually a really fun dungeon and cool place.  I mainly went because my friend had gotten a sword from the last boss that was really cool and I wanted to get that sword too.  So, me and him spent 4 or 5 hours running the dungeon (and having a blast too) and eventually I got the sword.  Well, in that time frame, a different friend was out just solo questing. In the time it took me and my other buddy to get that sword, he gained something like 6 levels and was getting green quest items that were SIGNIFICANTLY better than the super awesome blue sword I spent so much time getting.

    It was at this point that the logical part of me went "well what the **** is the point of dungeon running if I spend that timesolo questing, and just out level the item I spent all this time getting in the first place". It quite literally killed any reason to run dungeons for me.

    This leads into point 1B, because solo questing was not only the most efficient way to level, but also gave reasonably good rewards (basically you could always have level appropriate green items, which were more than enough to let you faceroll the content until you got to raiding) there was quite literally no incentive at all to running dungeons.  There was no XP incentive, and there was no item incentive (because you would out level the items so quickly due to a fast leveling time).  The only "incentive" was the "fun" factor, which is really only an incentive the first half a dozen times you run a dungeon, and also, if it was *just* about fun, and not character progression, why even play an MMO or an RPG?  I'd play CS:GO or something like that.

    Point 2 is a tie in to 1A and 1B.  Because you got reasonably good items as quest rewards from just about every quest you did, you had no reason (or need) to venture out into the world or do anything any riskier than solo quest grinding.  It was the most efficient, least effort (i.e. didn't have to put a group together), and easiest (as in just plain "difficulty") way to "progress" your character.

    Point 3 is also a tie in to primarily 1A and also in a roundabout way to 2. The reason I say this is because of fast and easy travel, in the rare situation you did encounter a need to travel to a new area, whether it was to run a dungeon for an item, or to do a quest for a mount, or to find a new quest hub that would allow you to progress your character efficiently, the fast travel eliminated any risk involved with that decision.  In EQ you took a while to go from one place to another, and usually, especially as a low level, that road to the new place was rife with potential risks/death.  Which means corpse recovery, etc.

    All of this of course cascades into other things, like the importance of death penalties, community and how its built (people being incentivized to stay in certain areas because of these risks and lack of fast travel got to know each other, etc), and of course myriad other aspects of MMO gameplay.

    Point is its all a tie in to a very complex system.  You can't just change one variable and expect it not impact others in expected or unexpected ways.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,949
    The rush to "end game" came as result of raid content being the on pinnacle and only worthwhile reward in the game. When all other loot is trivial and all other progression secondary, people will rush to get where the meaningful loot and progression is. That currently is "end game". It didn't always used to be that way.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 713
    Torval said:
    The rush to "end game" came as result of raid content being the on pinnacle and only worthwhile reward in the game. When all other loot is trivial and all other progression secondary, people will rush to get where the meaningful loot and progression is. That currently is "end game". It didn't always used to be that way.
    I agree with this over the post above.

    As for Brads OP, the faction grind in VG (back when it first opened and still mattered) was huge and not necessarily bad but for lack of content provided to increase. The mount quest system was just right for the first elite mount (the level 30 demon dog thing). It felt like a serious achievement (for mid game) and you had to do a long chain of quests plus you needed to grind favour. Some of the tiered gear needed crazy favour that required just grinding mobs for weeks and months which just felt like lack of content.

    The system where grinding favour one way decreased the other way sounds ok in theory except when you change guild and find your guild mates are grinding the other side, then you're fuqd.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Torval said:
    The rush to "end game" came as result of raid content being the on pinnacle and only worthwhile reward in the game. When all other loot is trivial and all other progression secondary, people will rush to get where the meaningful loot and progression is. That currently is "end game". It didn't always used to be that way.


    I'm sorry but that's horse pockey to simplify it down THAT much, was it a factor? certainly, the main reason, no.

    In EQ raid gear was the pinnacle of gear progression and EQ didn't have that mentality (some people did but certainly not the majority).

    If you were to argue the disparity between group/dungeon loot and raid loot being the cause, I could see that point and support it.  But just simply the existence of raiding I would wholesale disagree.  There is always more than one variable to the equation.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,949
    Hrimnir said:

    I really think that the perception of grind is what's most important.  I think the whole "gotta get to endgame" mentality was created as a combination of:

    1A. Too fast leveling times

    1B. Solo questing/quest hubs 

    2. Items being too common/easy to get

    3. Fast/easy travel.

    Primarily the main issue was 1, followed by 2, followed by 3

    So you think these reasons are why people rushed to end game? That's fairly bizarre because they nothing to do with wanting to get to end game. They may have facilitated the pace, but don't provide the motivation.

    Fast travel.... We're going to powerlevel because of fast travel? Why are we in a rush to get to fast travel?

    Soloing... Someone who solos is going to powerlevel to end game because they want to stop soloing and raid? I've never heard a soloer say that ever. Not then, not now.

    Easy gear... So people get easy gear and then they rush to end game to grind more gear because the upward journey gear was so easy to get?

    No, rushing to end game is because the best loot and rewards were behind the end game content and none of the other content mattered. This is where the motivation to powerlevel came from. It doesn't matter if at first it wasn't that way. It doesn't change the fact that because all real progression was locked behind raiding people powered to get to that gear. That pinnacle raid gear trivialized all other gear and content. So why would people waste their time futzing around in mid-tier content?

    I know the summary is overly simplified and the factors around that are more complex. However, that is the core of why we have powerleveling and rush to end game. Progression raiding has been the biggest design bane to this genre period. The current implementation in pretty much every game trivializes every other form of content and progression. Essentially it screws the rest of the game over.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • AeolynAeolyn Member UncommonPosts: 350
    One thing I have a problem with in games is how they are mostly designed around power gamers game play. 

    This usually results in new players finding it either too difficult or just no fun to try and level up to be able to tackle the harder content, instead of the developers making the content something that will always be relevant to all levels to play, though preferably for different reasons.  Higher levels should always have other reasons to play the same areas that low levels need, with an aim to make wanting to help each other profitable for both, without necessarily requiring them to belong to the same guild.

    Also, games need to have a means to combat the kinds of gameplay that take away the ability for other players to be able to still compete financially. 

    By this I mean those players(and yes we all know or have encountered them) who hog resources or drive up the market to the point that only they and their buddies are able to access them, thus controlling how others are able to play. 

    This could be done with hard caps on the amount of resources/items/gold able to be traded in a certain amount of time, essentially forcing players to do more than just sit and farm one thing in one place all day long as they would hit their cap and be unable to continue. 

    Sure some may not like this but if it lets others have a chance too then imo this should be the overall aim, the more players in a mmorpg the better.  Noone wants to play a game where there are ten top players controlling the market/dungeons/resources/etc while everyone else has to bow to them to be able to participate. 

    A mmorpg should be fun for all levels, not just those who have already played through all the content or have managed to power level to the top just for bragging rights.  Without new blood every single mmo will die, multiple accounts per live player can only go so far.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2016
    Torval said:
    No, rushing to end game is because the best loot and rewards were behind the end game content and none of the other content mattered.
    Ya, that's what he just said. The content early on was so trivial, the only thing that ultimately mattered was end game. At least achieving that means that, for a time, you have reached the pinnacle. Thus, because everything before it was so trivial, and on such a fast track (via mechanics like fast travel, soloing, quest progression and the like), getting to the end was the only goal.
    Torval said:
    This is where the motivation to powerlevel came from. It doesn't matter if at first it wasn't that way. It doesn't change the fact that because all real progression was locked behind raiding people powered to get to that gear. That pinnacle raid gear trivialized all other gear and content.
    Again, you said it yourself. The "real progression". Meaning the other progression prior to it was either too easy, or inconsequential compared to that achieved through raiding. That is what he said.
    Torval said:
    So why would people waste their time futzing around in mid-tier content?

    I know the summary is overly simplified and the factors around that are more complex. However, that is the core of why we have powerleveling and rush to end game. Progression raiding has been the biggest design bane to this genre period. The current implementation in pretty much every game trivializes every other form of content and progression. Essentially it screws the rest of the game over.

    I don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. EQ, at least early on, had very meaningful and rewarding content outside of raiding. In fact, the vast majority of the people who originally played it did not play to raid. Items you achieved at early and mid game in groups were often still useful in certain situations even at max level (hello, dwarven ringmail tunic, journeyman boots).

    There is a way to do it right. If the game is designed around the journey, meaning that what you achieve is not only fun but still useful up to, during and after reaching raid content, it gives meaning to group content. That means even the players who don't have the time or desire to raid have still accomplished something they can be proud of without feeling totally obsolete next to a raider.


  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Torval said:
    Hrimnir said:

    I really think that the perception of grind is what's most important.  I think the whole "gotta get to endgame" mentality was created as a combination of:

    1A. Too fast leveling times

    1B. Solo questing/quest hubs 

    2. Items being too common/easy to get

    3. Fast/easy travel.

    Primarily the main issue was 1, followed by 2, followed by 3

    So you think these reasons are why people rushed to end game? That's fairly bizarre because they nothing to do with wanting to get to end game. They may have facilitated the pace, but don't provide the motivation.

    Fast travel.... We're going to powerlevel because of fast travel? Why are we in a rush to get to fast travel?

    Soloing... Someone who solos is going to powerlevel to end game because they want to stop soloing and raid? I've never heard a soloer say that ever. Not then, not now.

    Easy gear... So people get easy gear and then they rush to end game to grind more gear because the upward journey gear was so easy to get?

    No, rushing to end game is because the best loot and rewards were behind the end game content and none of the other content mattered. This is where the motivation to powerlevel came from. It doesn't matter if at first it wasn't that way. It doesn't change the fact that because all real progression was locked behind raiding people powered to get to that gear. That pinnacle raid gear trivialized all other gear and content. So why would people waste their time futzing around in mid-tier content?

    I know the summary is overly simplified and the factors around that are more complex. However, that is the core of why we have powerleveling and rush to end game. Progression raiding has been the biggest design bane to this genre period. The current implementation in pretty much every game trivializes every other form of content and progression. Essentially it screws the rest of the game over.
    Demonstrating yet again that you have either an inability to read past the first few lines before responding, or, a complete lack of reading comprehension.  Either way i'm not going to waste my time responding to you as i delineated my points well.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited February 2016
    Yes, the best items were and still are raid drops in EQ BUT... VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
    Itemization in Everquest was VERY content balanced.
    Raid items were NOT needed to complete group content.
    You could grind/finish any group content perfectly fine with group content drops (including dropable bazar items)

    For casual players and non-raiders ( members of family type guilds that weren't raiding) and solo alts the group content WAS the end-game and this was the big majority on every server.
    These were/are the players that don't rush to max level and have couple of mid level alts before they hit max level with their main char.
    So, for this group which is big majority raid drops are unneeded luxury.

    The group of players that wants to raid on the other hand, are always skipping content and rushing to max level in order to reach their goal.
    Raid items were only essential for RAIDS! , especially for guild progression to the next tier/expansion raids in line.
    Raid items made the group content trivial and you can say more convinient because decked in raid gear you could do high-end group content with a group of 3 instead of 6.
    (This came in handy when grinding endless AAs)

    Also, don't forget AAs, they had a huge impact on character power, just as much as items so as a non-raider with max AAs you were still very powerful at your end-game (group content).

    EQ had perfectly balanced content vs itemization for all levels and play styles!

    Post edited by Benjola on

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • KayydKayyd Member UncommonPosts: 129
    There are a lot of people who will always grind because it's what they know, because they think it's efficient, and because given the choice between fun and achievement, they choose achievement. That isn't something any developer created, it's a part of human nature. Those people eventually railed against EQ for their own self imposed grind, blaming the game for their mindset.

    Blizzard heard the chorus complaining about the grind and thought they'd cater to that group. They'd make it easier to power through levels and focus on end game content. They showed there was another way. However not everyone will gind at the expense of fun. Given fun alternatives they'd rather explore, try new things, fight a variety of mobs in different places, work on obtaining mid level loot, etc.

    Once Wow showed it could be done and were so highly successful, then everyone decided it was the only model to follow. That left a lot of people without the part of the game they enjoyed. So to my mind the question is are you going to follow the crowd and cater to the players who will blow through content no matter what you do. Make your game focused on end game content, or are you going to serve those people who don't have a market, who want meaningful stuff to do at every level.
  • RallydRallyd Member UncommonPosts: 95
    I just don't think these 2 things can't coexist, they did in Everquest, up until Luclin when they started creating the majority of the content for the raiders and not the grouping community.

    Everquest until Luclin seemed to me like 80/20 Group>raid content, with Planes of Power they changed that dynamic entirely, from 80/20 to 20/80, this is a major part of why Everquest took a dive.

    I believe 80/20 to 90/10 Group/Raid ratio is optimal for the target audience of Pantheon.

    WoW started with a 95% solo/group content approach, and was wildly successful with it.  Later they changed the entire scheme to the 80/20 Raid>Group approach like Everquest did, and lost a metric shitton of subs, and still haven't figured out what went wrong yet.
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    I don't agree that EQ 'took a dive' because of raid content, pop started declining because of WoW and EQ2.
    I do agree that Planes of Power was mostly raid expansion though and since i was a hardcore raider at the time it's one of my old time favorite expansions in EQ.
    There was more then enough group content in PoP though like flaging for the second tier planes and quests for some amazing items as well.
    Also, most of the planes were favorite spots for AA grinding, with PoF staying the most efficient AA grind zone for years after.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Benjola said:
    I don't agree that EQ 'took a dive' because of raid content, pop started declining because of WoW and EQ2.
    I do agree that Planes of Power was mostly raid expansion though and since i was a hardcore raider at the time it's one of my old time favorite expansions in EQ.
    There was more then enough group content in PoP though like flaging for the second tier planes and quests for some amazing items as well.
    Also, most of the planes were favorite spots for AA grinding, with PoF staying the most efficient AA grind zone for years after.
    Raid content wasn't the cause, it was the focus on raid content at the disregard of group content that helped cause players to move on in EQ.

    GoD was the "raid expansion" and OoW was the progression content (ie group progression) content that went with it. Problem was, they released GoD before OoW and the result was a bunch of grouping players sitting around spinning their wheels with nothing to do, especially after being slapped in the face by PoPs design and having the BS expansions of LDoN and Yekehsa being nothing more than just gimmick expansions. This was a personal send off of the players to move on to WoW.

    As for PoP, it was nothing more than pointless mundane grind zones for the group players. Nothing to do but sit in open zones and grind for exp or key quests just to be able to move on to the next zone (this is also why EQ2 was hated on release as it emulated this grind in a single zone to be able to move on to another zone concept).

    PoP was a hated expansion, it was good for AA, good for grinding EXP, but if you weren't in a competitive raiding guild, you were just wasting your time. This was the beginning of the fall of EQ.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited February 2016
    Rallyd said:
    I just don't think these 2 things can't coexist, they did in Everquest, up until Luclin when they started creating the majority of the content for the raiders and not the grouping community.

    Everquest until Luclin seemed to me like 80/20 Group>raid content, with Planes of Power they changed that dynamic entirely, from 80/20 to 20/80, this is a major part of why Everquest took a dive.

    I believe 80/20 to 90/10 Group/Raid ratio is optimal for the target audience of Pantheon.

    WoW started with a 95% solo/group content approach, and was wildly successful with it.  Later they changed the entire scheme to the 80/20 Raid>Group approach like Everquest did, and lost a metric shitton of subs, and still haven't figured out what went wrong yet.
    Blame the idiots like Furor (Fires of Heaven) and Tigole (Afterlife) for this crap(Tigole worked for Blizzard and they hired on Furor as a quest designer). They were also responsible for WoWs switch from a 25 man MC design to a 40 man design in WoW before release . These two idiots ranted constantly and threw tantrums about not being catered to in EQ. They are an example of the entitlement crowd expecting a game to completely shift to cater to their singular ideal. Seriously, those fucking retards are primarily responsible for the downfall of EQ and the downfall of WoWs progression.

    Frankly it is fucking pathetic how idiotic SoE handled their design all because of some fucking twits who should have been flipping burgers and never let near the design of a game system, but hey... reality doesn't serve the most skilled to any given situation, yes... fucking idiots do work jobs they shouldn't be unfortunately. /shrug
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited February 2016
    Talking about group content, what exactly other EQ expansions had that PoP didn't?
    Grinding levels and AAs, group quests here and there and farming nameds is the group content of Everquest, always has been and every expansion had it.

    In my experience,population of my server didn't decline with PoP but with GoD and if I can 'blame' anything other then WoW and EQ2 for the decline of EQ it has to be GoD group content.
    The group content WAS there, but it was brutally hard, simple trash mobs were hiting like trucks to the point that only a warrior could tank trash, pallies and SKs were getting raped left and right.
    And the raid content, well, it was pretty much impossible.
    Both GoD group and raid content was tweaked and toned down somewhat later on but the damage was already done, nobody liked or enjoyed GoD, many got fed up 9sepecially non-war tanks) and left for EQ2 or WoW.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,949
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    No, rushing to end game is because the best loot and rewards were behind the end game content and none of the other content mattered.
    Ya, that's what he just said. The content early on was so trivial, the only thing that ultimately mattered was end game. At least achieving that means that, for a time, you have reached the pinnacle. Thus, because everything before it was so trivial, and on such a fast track (via mechanics like fast travel, soloing, quest progression and the like), getting to the end was the only goal.
    Torval said:
    This is where the motivation to powerlevel came from. It doesn't matter if at first it wasn't that way. It doesn't change the fact that because all real progression was locked behind raiding people powered to get to that gear. That pinnacle raid gear trivialized all other gear and content.
    Again, you said it yourself. The "real progression". Meaning the other progression prior to it was either too easy, or inconsequential compared to that achieved through raiding. That is what he said.
    Torval said:
    So why would people waste their time futzing around in mid-tier content?

    I know the summary is overly simplified and the factors around that are more complex. However, that is the core of why we have powerleveling and rush to end game. Progression raiding has been the biggest design bane to this genre period. The current implementation in pretty much every game trivializes every other form of content and progression. Essentially it screws the rest of the game over.

    I don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. EQ, at least early on, had very meaningful and rewarding content outside of raiding. In fact, the vast majority of the people who originally played it did not play to raid. Items you achieved at early and mid game in groups were often still useful in certain situations even at max level (hello, dwarven ringmail tunic, journeyman boots).

    There is a way to do it right. If the game is designed around the journey, meaning that what you achieve is not only fun but still useful up to, during and after reaching raid content, it gives meaning to group content. That means even the players who don't have the time or desire to raid have still accomplished something they can be proud of without feeling totally obsolete next to a raider.
    All of that stuff I said in my earlier post to which he argued and said it was about fast travel, etc.

    Anyway, in the early life of mmos you're right, it wasn't all about that, but because of non-trivial progression being raid locked that attitude sort of evolved out of that. After a while all non-trivial progression was raid locked and thus people started wanting to rush to end game. In EQ what xpac tipped that scale? That's what I think would need to be avoided in this game or it will end up that people will just want to rush to end game and they won't care about grinding that out.

    How exactly do you make raid content that is attractive raiders now that doesn't trivialize journey content?
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  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Benjola said:
    Talking about group content, what exactly other EQ expansions had that PoP didn't?
    Grinding levels and AAs, group quests here and there and farming nameds is the group content of Everquest, always has been and every expansion had it.

    In my experience,population of my server didn't decline with PoP but with GoD and if I can 'blame' anything other then WoW and EQ2 for the decline of EQ it has to be GoD group content.
    The group content WAS there, but it was brutally hard, simple trash mobs were hiting like trucks to the point that only a warrior could tank trash, pallies and SKs were getting raped left and right.
    And the raid content, well, it was pretty much impossible.
    Both GoD group and raid content was tweaked and toned down later but the damage was already done, many got fed up and went EQ2 or WoW.

    Pre-PoP you had many more open zones and dungeons that did not requires key'd progression to access. PoP was entirely focused on catering to raiders while the previous expansions were heavily group content based with raid encounters within each of the group zones.

    PoP was the beginning. You had the dumbing down of content with fast travel, the keyed progression which had a dramatic effect on classes getting their spells, and all of this was controlled by guilds who blocked any other progression. They eventually added a means to key outside of the raid targets through ridiculous quest grinds. AA's dramatically overpowering previous content (and causing strife in level vs AA requirements).

    Then, they released Legacy of Ykesha which was a terrible expansion with ridiculous faction grinds and horrible itemization (it was rushed out), only to be followed by LDoN which was nothing more than a preview of the crap dungeon designs we have today (ie run short dungeons over and over hundreds of times for rewards).

    By the time they finally released a major expansion a yeah and a half later, it was a raid only expansion which pissed in the face of the grouping population.

    PoP was the start of the decline (it was shit for everyone BUT raiders, it wasn't a bad raiding expansion) and by the time they relesed OoW, it was too late for most of the old school EQ crowd, they already quit or moved on.

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited February 2016
    Sinist said:
    Blame the idiots like Furor (Fires of Heaven) and Tigole (Afterlife) for this crap(Tigole worked for Blizzard and they hired on Furor as a quest designer). They were also responsible for WoWs switch from a 25 man MC design to a 40 man design in WoW before release . These two idiots ranted constantly and threw tantrums about not being catered to in EQ. They are an example of the entitlement crowd expecting a game to completely shift to cater to their singular ideal. Seriously, those fucking retards are primarily responsible for the downfall of EQ and the downfall of WoWs progression.

    I agree with this but you don't seem to understand the reason for their constant moaning.
    Apperantly Blizzard approached most of the guild leaders from the biggest guilds in EQ and promissed them some perks (in case of those 2 muppets even jobs) as a reward for bringing their guilds to WoW.
    The constant bitching about bugs and mechanics that followed and the 'threats' the Furor muppet was touting was his tactics of persuasion of FoH EQ vets and game comunity to follow him to WoW, and apperantly it worked.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited February 2016
    Benjola said:
    Sinist said:
    Blame the idiots like Furor (Fires of Heaven) and Tigole (Afterlife) for this crap(Tigole worked for Blizzard and they hired on Furor as a quest designer). They were also responsible for WoWs switch from a 25 man MC design to a 40 man design in WoW before release . These two idiots ranted constantly and threw tantrums about not being catered to in EQ. They are an example of the entitlement crowd expecting a game to completely shift to cater to their singular ideal. Seriously, those fucking retards are primarily responsible for the downfall of EQ and the downfall of WoWs progression.

    I agree with this but you don't seem to understand the reason for their constant moaning.
    Apperantly Blizzard approached most of the guild leaders from the biggest guilds in EQ and promissed them some perks (in case of those 2 muppets even jobs) as a reward for bringing their guilds to WoW.
    The constant bitching about bugs and mechanics that followed and the 'threats' the Furor muppet was touting was his tactics of persuasion of FoH EQ vets and game comunity to follow him to WoW, and apperantly it worked.


    I remember their antics, I know they were being groomed by Blizzard at the time and it shows you how Blizzard was left with only lackeys at release and why they were hiring no talent hacks to their teams (all of the talent left Blizzard a few weeks before WoW was released after Vevendi bought them out). That said, it was people like them that were the problems. The large guilds were immature little kids throwing tantrums from as early as release, complaining about lack of content, too hard of content, lack of drops, fighting over spawns, etc...

    EQ contested raid content was never the glamorous events some seem to make out. Between the top guilds of no lifes who had no jobs and played 24/7 and the fights between the US an Euro guilds moving to the US servers to take over spawns, to the cock blocking, to the bitching to the devs, to the grieving, etc... EQ contested raid content was SHIT for the most part.

    I know of none of my old player base who thinks fondly of it, especially if they were working professionals at the time like myself and many in my guild. While the kiddies were on all the time, we were working long hours and raising families, so contested "raid" content was something we never looked on fondly.


  • FourplayFourplay Member UncommonPosts: 216
    Torval said:
    Dullahan said:
    Torval said:
    No, rushing to end game is because the best loot and rewards were behind the end game content and none of the other content mattered.
    Ya, that's what he just said. The content early on was so trivial, the only thing that ultimately mattered was end game. At least achieving that means that, for a time, you have reached the pinnacle. Thus, because everything before it was so trivial, and on such a fast track (via mechanics like fast travel, soloing, quest progression and the like), getting to the end was the only goal.
    Torval said:
    This is where the motivation to powerlevel came from. It doesn't matter if at first it wasn't that way. It doesn't change the fact that because all real progression was locked behind raiding people powered to get to that gear. That pinnacle raid gear trivialized all other gear and content.
    Again, you said it yourself. The "real progression". Meaning the other progression prior to it was either too easy, or inconsequential compared to that achieved through raiding. That is what he said.
    Torval said:
    So why would people waste their time futzing around in mid-tier content?

    I know the summary is overly simplified and the factors around that are more complex. However, that is the core of why we have powerleveling and rush to end game. Progression raiding has been the biggest design bane to this genre period. The current implementation in pretty much every game trivializes every other form of content and progression. Essentially it screws the rest of the game over.

    I don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. EQ, at least early on, had very meaningful and rewarding content outside of raiding. In fact, the vast majority of the people who originally played it did not play to raid. Items you achieved at early and mid game in groups were often still useful in certain situations even at max level (hello, dwarven ringmail tunic, journeyman boots).

    There is a way to do it right. If the game is designed around the journey, meaning that what you achieve is not only fun but still useful up to, during and after reaching raid content, it gives meaning to group content. That means even the players who don't have the time or desire to raid have still accomplished something they can be proud of without feeling totally obsolete next to a raider.
    All of that stuff I said in my earlier post to which he argued and said it was about fast travel, etc.

    Anyway, in the early life of mmos you're right, it wasn't all about that, but because of non-trivial progression being raid locked that attitude sort of evolved out of that. After a while all non-trivial progression was raid locked and thus people started wanting to rush to end game. In EQ what xpac tipped that scale? That's what I think would need to be avoided in this game or it will end up that people will just want to rush to end game and they won't care about grinding that out.

    How exactly do you make raid content that is attractive raiders now that doesn't trivialize journey content?
    If there is a single path to the pinnacle. Then there is an endgame or a singular point that people want to reach. All those mechanics that make reaching that pinnacle faster accentuate the problem with traditional rpgs, Levels.

    So then the issue is prior content to a pinnacle is easier and less rewarding than the pinnacle.

    Why must the journey have a beginning and an end with the advent of endgame? Shouldn't the journey and endgame be one and the same.

    "How exactly do you make raid content that is attractive raiders now that doesn't trivialize journey content?"

    This is just my suggestion and probably not the end all answer. Group based traversal, questing,killing,crafting dungeon crawling, all taking place from the beginning to the end. No levels, skill based powered up on a per monster per zone basis. Just because you kill a billion squirrels doesn't mean you can kill a dragon in a new area and vice versa.

    That would pretty much keep anyone who enjoys soloing more from dying to play the particular game.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Benjola said:
    Yes, the best items were and still are raid drops in EQ BUT... VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
    Itemization in Everquest was VERY content balanced.
    Raid items were NOT needed to complete group content.
    You could grind/finish any group content perfectly fine with group content drops (including dropable bazar items)

    For casual players and non-raiders ( members of family type guilds that weren't raiding) and solo alts the group content WAS the end-game and this was the big majority on every server.
    These were/are the players that don't rush to max level and have couple of mid level alts before they hit max level with their main char.
    So, for this group which is big majority raid drops are unneeded luxury.

    The group of players that wants to raid on the other hand, are always skipping content and rushing to max level in order to reach their goal.
    Raid items were only essential for RAIDS! , especially for guild progression to the next tier/expansion raids in line.
    Raid items made the group content trivial and you can say more convinient because decked in raid gear you could do high-end group content with a group of 3 instead of 6.
    (This came in handy when grinding endless AAs)

    Also, don't forget AAs, they had a huge impact on character power, just as much as items so as a non-raider with max AAs you were still very powerful at your end-game (group content).

    EQ had perfectly balanced content vs itemization for all levels and play styles!


    In what game was raid items require to do group content.  I've played pretty much all of the major PVE games and the dungeons were faceroll easy in all of them in basically crap gear.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Rallyd said:
    I just don't think these 2 things can't coexist, they did in Everquest, up until Luclin when they started creating the majority of the content for the raiders and not the grouping community.

    Everquest until Luclin seemed to me like 80/20 Group>raid content, with Planes of Power they changed that dynamic entirely, from 80/20 to 20/80, this is a major part of why Everquest took a dive.

    I believe 80/20 to 90/10 Group/Raid ratio is optimal for the target audience of Pantheon.

    WoW started with a 95% solo/group content approach, and was wildly successful with it.  Later they changed the entire scheme to the 80/20 Raid>Group approach like Everquest did, and lost a metric shitton of subs, and still haven't figured out what went wrong yet.


    I disagree whole heartedly.  The main reason it was taking a dive at that point is because other games started coming out.  Also the game was basically 3 years old at that point, games just lose population over time, that's the reality.

    I don't disagree with your idea that there was too much of a raid/group disparity, but I contest that it was the primary cause of the games population decline.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2016
    Hrimnir said:
    Rallyd said:
    I just don't think these 2 things can't coexist, they did in Everquest, up until Luclin when they started creating the majority of the content for the raiders and not the grouping community.

    Everquest until Luclin seemed to me like 80/20 Group>raid content, with Planes of Power they changed that dynamic entirely, from 80/20 to 20/80, this is a major part of why Everquest took a dive.

    I believe 80/20 to 90/10 Group/Raid ratio is optimal for the target audience of Pantheon.

    WoW started with a 95% solo/group content approach, and was wildly successful with it.  Later they changed the entire scheme to the 80/20 Raid>Group approach like Everquest did, and lost a metric shitton of subs, and still haven't figured out what went wrong yet.


    I disagree whole heartedly.  The main reason it was taking a dive at that point is because other games started coming out.  Also the game was basically 3 years old at that point, games just lose population over time, that's the reality.

    I don't disagree with your idea that there was too much of a raid/group disparity, but I contest that it was the primary cause of the games population decline.

    Have to disagree with this. While WoW and other games would have hurt EQ's pop either way, the game fundamentally changed from 2002-2005. During this time the playerbase stopped growing, and even dropped at times. There's a reason everyone talks about wanting a classic version of EQ. That is the reason why those are the popular emulated servers. Those servers allowing players to revisit the "golden era" is, in my opinion, the only thing that has kept Daybreak alive.

    As I've said so many times before, the reason why WoW hurt EQ so much was because it was already becoming more like WoW before it even launched. The best thing I believe they could have done was differentiate themselves by staying true to the original design. Instead they had to compete directly with the casual themepark design.
    Post edited by Dullahan on


  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Dullahan said:
    As I've said so many times before, the reason why WoW hurt EQ so much was because it was already becoming more like WoW before it even launched. The best thing I believe they could have done was differentiate themselves by staying true to the original design. Instead they had to compete directly with the casual themepark design.
    Yep, and LDoN was a perfect view to the future of mainstream dungeon design. It really is amazing how WoW eventually copied EQ's attempt to copy WoW in instance design with LDoN.

    Just look at how LDoN is setup. You have to run the instances over and over numerous times to be able to progress the story, gain a reward, etc... It is EXACTLY mainstream design today where people grind the dungeons for tokens over and over. At least release WoW provided long term dungeon crawls. Repeating the dungeon over and over in fast successions was not common in early WoW because for most of them, it took most of the night to get through it just once.
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    LDON started the group instances grind crap yes and every EQ expansion and MMO after used it.
    So I agree that the decline of MMORPG quality started with LDON and instanced group content is the DEVIL!
    Please no such nonsense in Pantheon Brad ok?
    OK?

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

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