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Minorities in Gaming - Theorizing Representation As Revolutionary - Som Pourfarzaneh at MMORPG.com

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,973
    AngryElf said:
    @Amathe
    Right, but I can't make a morbidly obese wood elf, and my brother's ogre doesn't wear glasses.
    I call foul
    That's what mods are for...

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,813
    Iselin said:
    Iselin said:
    Good article Som. It amazes me how many people don't get the simple fact that Western society is a white hetero male society (non-white regions of the world are very much the same minus the white part)  and have a hard time understanding why those who don't fit within that demographic feel the need to lobby for change.

    "...when a member from a minority group is required to speak out against their marginalization, and is subsequently told that they’re being overly sensitive or out of line."

    And our esteemed forum members in typical internet trollish fashion are quick to throw out "SJW" in a derogatory manner ... as if working toward social justice were a bad thing, lol)


     
    Yes, diversity is wonderful unless it's diversity of thought.  Then it is trollish.  LOL indeed.

    So you're saying working toward social justice is something to be mocked and laughed at, or at the very least not mentioned in polite gaming discussions? I don't understand your thought process. Maybe something other than this...

    Slapshot1188 said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Can we please keep SJW agenda driven articles out of MMORPG.


    Could not agree more.

    ... might help clarify it.

    Unless you're just saying this is your happy ostrich hidey-hole and you don't want real world issues mentioned... is that it?

    If so I guess you must be sick and tired of the guy you agreed with and his constant "censorship" gripe threads.
    I no more want to see this on a gaming forum than I want to see people argue about abortion or global warming on here.  I think you have a right to preach about becoming a SJW... just not on a gaming site.  I also don't have any power to stop you, no matter how stupid I may personally think the argument or the entire concept/topic.  Games are meant to be games, not ways of manipulating public thoughts. George Orwell is calling.


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,884
    I no more want to see this on a gaming forum than I want to see people argue about abortion or global warming on here.  I think you have a right to preach about becoming a SJW... just not on a gaming site.  I also don't have any power to stop you, no matter how stupid I may personally think the argument or the entire concept/topic.  Games are meant to be games, not ways of manipulating public thoughts. George Orwell is calling.


    Lol... way to ignore the whole point of the article.

    The point is that all media including games shapes public thought... or, if you prefer, manipulates it. You're just saying you're good with it being manipulated towards maintaining the status quo rather than toward change.
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • neschrianeschria Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    I understand the issue of representation and do believe it could be important, and I've made characters with varying shades of brown skin just to break up the monotony. It generally makes me easy to pick out of a crowd.

    EQ had a black race way back in 1999.

    ...
    This is where I draw the line: __________________.

  • timbot13timbot13 Member UncommonPosts: 5
    Iselin said:
    I no more want to see this on a gaming forum than I want to see people argue about abortion or global warming on here.  I think you have a right to preach about becoming a SJW... just not on a gaming site.  I also don't have any power to stop you, no matter how stupid I may personally think the argument or the entire concept/topic.  Games are meant to be games, not ways of manipulating public thoughts. George Orwell is calling.


    Lol... way to ignore the whole point of the article.

    The point is that all media including games shapes public thought... or, if you prefer, manipulates it. You're just saying you're good with it being manipulated towards maintaining the status quo rather than toward change.
    What makes me laugh is that we have gotten to the point where you are seriously saying games are manipulation peoples thoughts(and in return actions). When we have already been over that whole GAMES CAUSE VIOLENCE fiasco not too long ago. Just beyond sad seeing people repeat the same points which have been debunked.

    Also at what point did mmos(let alone games) start representing a status quo, or even reinforcing it. You seem to be really obsessive over this "status quo" games seem to be pushing. How in my life of playing games have I not seen this or even been effected by this? How is it some people are apparently being effected in such a way by games that no one other than our SJW saviors noticed?

    All in all I would just really like to know what video game hurt you? Where on the doll did that last mmo touch you? I know some f2p games can be really annoying, and you might have not known it was pay 2 win. Please open up about the pain you are suffering over these vidya games.

    I just want to play as a dwarf, grow a big ass beard, and punch the shit out of elves. If somehow I cause real world pain to someone, good because they were probably a fucking elf. 

    I hate games

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,813
    It's a silly argument.  People just want to be victims... even in games.

    /sad

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    It's a silly argument.  People just want to be victims... even in games.

    /sad
    ^This

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,884
    People just want to be victims... even in games.

    I think you just solved all the world's problems right there in one simple minded sentence... "there are no victims, just wannabe victims"

    Sadder yet is that some of you believe this shit.

    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • timbot13timbot13 Member UncommonPosts: 5
    Iselin said:
    People just want to be victims... even in games.

    I think you just solved all the world's problems right there in one simple minded sentence... "there are no victims, just wannabe victims"

    Sadder yet is that some of you believe this shit.

    No one here is trying to solve world problems you donut, 90% sure we are here for video games.

    I hate games

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,813
    Iselin said:
    People just want to be victims... even in games.

    I think you just solved all the world's problems right there in one simple minded sentence... "there are no victims, just wannabe victims"

    Sadder yet is that some of you believe this shit.

    No what is sad is that people cannot leave their real world issues outside and have to try and be a victim... even in a game.  THAT is truly sad.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Iselin said:
    People just want to be victims... even in games.

    I think you just solved all the world's problems right there in one simple minded sentence... "there are no victims, just wannabe victims"

    Sadder yet is that some of you believe this shit.

    No what is sad is that people cannot leave their real world issues outside and have to try and be a victim... even in a game.  THAT is truly sad.
    ^This

    Get over yourself Iselin

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • shavashava Member UncommonPosts: 322


    It’s common knowledge, for example, that women are paid around seventy cents to the dollar compared to men



    Not sure how this is even remotely related to MMO, you wrote the article, but it's not even correct. Not by a long shot.




    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/04/09/president-obamas-persistent-77-cent-claim-on-the-wage-gap-gets-a-new-pinocchio-rating/



    Your cited article despite the clickbait headline is not a qualifier that Obama is incorrect, just that he takes a complex situation and oversimplifies it.

    Women who are single and take jobs that are high reward get approximately the same pay. It's still lower. They still get paid 7-9% less than a male counterpart with the exact same qualifications.

    But unlike the guy, they have to give up having a marriage and kids for it. In fact, the guy gets paid MORE if he has a wife and kids on the side. If she decides she wants a family, her pay gets chopped. It's instantly assumed that her job will be back seat to her career.

    Not only that but the more hardcore her career is in terms of the field she's in the better she's paid. "Men's" careers -- those dominated by men, such as engineering, finance, security, what have you -- will see her paid better pay and benefits than "women's" careers like teaching, nursing, social work, child care, and so on.

    From the article: "Unless women stop getting married and having children, and start abandoning careers in childhood education for naval architecture, this huge gap in wages will almost certainly persist."

    Those facts can be restated thus:

    "Unless men take over the lion's share of childrearing, and start valuing careers in more nurturing fields and thereby driving wages in those fields UP, women will be paid less over the course of their prime wage earning years."

    Stuff it, sugar. I was a young woman engineer in the 70s and 80s, and I got paid about 75% of the men in the same office. It's less common now, because a lot of women in my position sued, and perhaps I should have.

    I just was happy to do the work. I was happy that when I applied for the software engineering jobs in the Boston Globe's MEN WANTED column (something that became illegal probably before you were born) in the want ads, they didn't throw out my application because I'd applied for a job in the wrong ad category.

    The problem with this column is that it talks as though people want equal representation. I'd settle for even vaguely proportional representation, a bare presence, as though it weren't impossible for a person who is female, a person who is not white, a person who is disabled in one aspect but able in others, a person who is gay or whatever - for those people to be represented as heroic also.

    MMOs are mostly the hero's journey, and we run them as such. It's that RPG part of the acronym that some of you -- not all -- ignore. But it's important to a lot of us who still read.

    These things happen in fiction, and games are the fiction of our times, our interactive movies, our stories, the playgrounds for our young folks, our cultural art. I'm not dictating to anyone, but I am saying loud and clear THIS IS A MARKET.

    I am saying that the game producers should stop imposing some Comics Code like self-censorship based on the shrill oversensitive privileged voices of the men's club just because you men like to be LOUDER than minorities and women, because you are used to being the people who are heard in numbers, as the majority. That's pretty much the definition of privileged majorities.

    Yet, despite some of you being pack mammals who seem to feel you have to gang up on minorities and women, you represent yourselves mostly as being tough and virtuous (from the Latin root vir- "like a man").

    If you guys are so tough, you can deal with being in the presence of a few folks who aren't exactly like you. It was good enough for your grandfathers or great grandfathers in WWII, despite the often homogenized populations in the games representing that war (no blacks, no Jews, no Hispanics, no women in the medical corps,...).

    You want to be virtuous. Man up. Give some ground that reflects the reality your grandparents recognized. A lot of them came back from WWII with a broadened idea of what diversity meant, and we had a series of changes in US society for a while, that had real impact for decades -- and is wearing off on the shallow end of the pool.

    For you in Europe, it was perhaps a little different but not so much. WWII was sobering, and a lot of people learned a great deal about the shadows of nationalism. Yes all those cultures are very different, but every one of those people bleed red, and we got to find that out. It was a unifying experience to many.

    The point is that every one of you is capable of developing compassion beyond your narrow boundaries of personal identity, to allow space for someone else's story in the presence of your own. Why is that so hard? You do not have to lose for all of us to also win. That's not how it works.

    Why are you trying to make this into a zero sum game, when it is not? If it is not narrowness or insecurity on your part, what is it?

    Because from here, it looks like dog-in-a-manger bullying, and it always has, for nearly half a century that I've had to deal with being a woman in these "domains" that men think are theirs -- engineering, programming, military contracting, cybersecurity, cypherpunk, wargaming, MMOs.

    If you can deal with the elves and the orcs and the made up races, then your only real excuse for objecting so strongly to the presence of proportional representation is that it horns in on your boys' club. We are not trying to "take over." We are trying to see a reflection of ourselves in one corner of a very very large mirror.

    You will have plenty of white male faces to stare at forever, promise.

    We have been waiting to see ourselves as heroes, patiently, at the margins for a long time. Some of us have been here longer than you've been alive -- I've been a war gamer since the 70s, a computer gamer since the late 70s, and playing MMOs since the late 80s. I was play testing D&D on mimeograph.

    Gaming was never your sole domain. I know how many women have always been here, how many people of various orientations, ethnicities and so on. Just because we don't make as many decibels doesn't make us less human, it means we are fewer, have been mature and patient, and waited to state our case hoping the problem would resolve on its own. And now you can not stand to ponder the case without reacting to it. Try thinking it through for a fraction of the same time without attacking.
  • khalinmchroikhalinmchroi Member UncommonPosts: 5
    the world is a diverse place. if you're hiring diverse talent you should naturally have diverse characters.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Seems like the usual BS spewed out by people with nothing more than degrees in Media and Communications studies to their name, utterly laughable, they clearly don't live in the same world as the rest of us.
  • AsamofAsamof Member UncommonPosts: 824
    It's really up to the game developer to make exactly what they want to make. If there's something I don't care for creatively then I just don't think about it and move on with my life. Also strange that people bring this up as a moral issue considering majority of gaming is about glorified mass murder.
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    edited January 2016
    shava said:

    Stuff it, sugar.

    you men like to be LOUDER than minorities and women

    some of you being pack mammals

    Man up

    For you in Europe,every one of those people bleed red

    You will have plenty of white male faces to stare at forever, promise.


    Jesus christ. Are you for real? Please close this thread.
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    It's a silly argument.  People just want to be victims... even in games.

    /sad
    ^This
    As a african american male, I tend to stay out of these types of conversations but let me get you all hip to a few facts..

    Minorities have been misrepresented in video games since the start. 99% of video games feature a European/Caucasian male as the protagonist. This is not new. When there are characters in the game that happen to be "minority" it is usually something over the top and stereotypical.

    If you don't believe me, then name 3 games from ANY genre that had minority PROTAGONIST  characters that were not either Soldiers, Thugs, generally stereotypical and  lacking depth. 

    Its not about being a victim. That's a  lazy counter to avoid discussing the truth. Put it like this, how would you feel if 99% of video games featured Black Men as the lead character? Just reading that probably makes you feel weird as it should but that's what its like. I still enjoy video games but It sucks that my "face" is usually poorly represented in a hobby that is SUPPOSED to be diverse.  This is the truth whether you want to like it or not.. it doesn't matter.

    The truth remains that minorities are not represented well in video games. Please dont tell me "But klash game A has black people, I've made them."  dude, putting a darker skin on a european looking character is not the same as making a character that actually looks black. Most of these games are just giving you skin option A-D but it just looks like a caucasian dude with dark skin. NOT the same and YES this is a issue and NO it isn't new. 


    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Sick and tired of these SJW type articles that are infesting discussions these days, i'd rather talk about gaming than listen to SJW's patting each other on the back and telling each other how clever and right they are, lets just stick to games.
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    All I see in this thread are people trying to shoot down others for bringing up something very factual because it makes them feel "weird" to consider the truth of Minorities in this hobby. It's easy to overlook and shit on other people's perspective when all the protagonists or lead characters look like you.
    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    klash2def said:
    All I see in this thread are people trying to shoot down others for bringing up something very factual because it makes them feel "weird" to consider the truth of Minorities in this hobby. It's easy to overlook and shit on other people's perspective when all the protagonists or lead characters look like you.
    Except its BS, their not facts, but often agenda driven bigotry, and it doesn't seem to matter to some people how many times their 'facts' are proven to be utterly false, they have their agenda's and if you don't agree then your a racist or a misogynist, probably both, its just BS, and its time something was done about it.
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    Phry said:
    Sick and tired of these SJW type articles that are infesting discussions these days, i'd rather talk about gaming than listen to SJW's patting each other on the back and telling each other how clever and right they are, lets just stick to games.
    stick to games? I'm sorry is this thread about Minorities being represented at the grocery store? I could've sworn the topic here was video games... if it makes you uncomfortable that's one thing but dont come in here with that passive bullshit because your scary ass doesn't want to consider the true perspective of other people. 
    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    klash2def said:
    Phry said:
    Sick and tired of these SJW type articles that are infesting discussions these days, i'd rather talk about gaming than listen to SJW's patting each other on the back and telling each other how clever and right they are, lets just stick to games.
    stick to games? I'm sorry is this thread about Minorities being represented at the grocery store? I could've sworn the topic here was video games... if it makes you uncomfortable that's one thing but dont come in here with that passive bullshit because your scary ass doesn't want to consider the true perspective of other people. 
    i doubt very much you are sorry at all, and yes the topic should have been about video games, but thats how these SJW's twist things, and the only thing that makes SJW's uncomfortable is the fact that time and again their fallacious arguments are proven to be BS, every, single, time.
    the trouble is you aren't interested in the perspective of real people, because they don't fit in with your preconceived ideas. So get over it, and move on.
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    Phry said:
    klash2def said:
    All I see in this thread are people trying to shoot down others for bringing up something very factual because it makes them feel "weird" to consider the truth of Minorities in this hobby. It's easy to overlook and shit on other people's perspective when all the protagonists or lead characters look like you.
    Except its BS, their not facts, but often agenda driven bigotry, and it doesn't seem to matter to some people how many times their 'facts' are proven to be utterly false, they have their agenda's and if you don't agree then your a racist or a misogynist, probably both, its just BS, and its time something was done about it.
    Okay, since its such BS prove me wrong? In the last DECADE, count the games that had a minority as lead.. then count the games that had white male as the lead..

    Now tell me that i'm lying about the representation of minorities in games.

    This has nothing to do with anything other than what's real. You being sick of it and ignorance does not change the facts. I could give a fuck about the term "SJW". I'm not about to be put in any box, ALL people should care about fair representation of other types of races and cultures and if you dont then that makes YOU a fucking bigot/racist. If caring about these things makes me a SJW then guess what I am, and you should be too. Unless like I said you are a bigot. 

     Social injustices are very real and they exist in EVERYTHING, yes that includes video games. Just because you are uncomfortable does not make it less true. 
    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    Phry said:
    klash2def said:
    Phry said:
    Sick and tired of these SJW type articles that are infesting discussions these days, i'd rather talk about gaming than listen to SJW's patting each other on the back and telling each other how clever and right they are, lets just stick to games.
    stick to games? I'm sorry is this thread about Minorities being represented at the grocery store? I could've sworn the topic here was video games... if it makes you uncomfortable that's one thing but dont come in here with that passive bullshit because your scary ass doesn't want to consider the true perspective of other people. 
    i doubt very much you are sorry at all, and yes the topic should have been about video games, but thats how these SJW's twist things, and the only thing that makes SJW's uncomfortable is the fact that time and again their fallacious arguments are proven to be BS, every, single, time.
    the trouble is you aren't interested in the perspective of real people, because they don't fit in with your preconceived ideas. So get over it, and move on.
    You are so full of shit. Like I said prove me wrong. I keep giving points, you have yet to counter any of them.. all you can say is "move on" because you cannot counter anything I said. Like I said.. 

    If 99% of games were black male leads would you have a issue with that? I would. Because Its not a fair representation of the people who play video games. That's the issue. For the consumer base to be as diverse as it is, it SUCKS that most games do not even consider writing a Protag of Depth that happens to be minority. Again if you can't counter my points with proof then do not even respond. 

    In the last 10 years I can count on 1 hand how many games had protags that were not caucasian male. 
    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,824
    DMKano said:
    I am gonna go with "a topic not worthy of discussion".

    Very pretentious. Hey If you do not want to add to the conversation then you do not have to post here. Its really that easy. Also It's definitely a topic worthy of discussion... moving on. 
    "Everything that happens is a political act, and the only people that get to pretend otherwise are those privileged enough to not have politics impact them at all." ~Taliesin

    "What does it mean to be human? In a time when people's humanity is perennially called into question?"
    - Dr. Cornell West

    "Being “colorblind” is not the solution to racism. See people fully. Love people deeply"
    -Bernice King

    "Putting a woman, a person of color, a queer character, a disabled character (in games) isn't some agenda, it's making games that reflect the world we live in." 

    "America loves intelligence but scorns intellect"
     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, yes you've heard what I've heard


This discussion has been closed.