I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
already asked and answered. Guess you are not paying attention. Here it is again.
I don't really think the E-sport thing really applies to MMO's. For one thing, they aren't designed to have a winner, which, clearly you need in order to have a sport.
You can play an MMORPG like an E-sport and many do. Probably 75 % of the people on this forum use this playstyle IMO, but sorry no facts to support this, other than the present number of comments on how MMO's lack challenge.
So while there is a simple reason why it doesn't work, that will never stop people from trying
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
already asked and answered. Guess you are not paying attention. Here it is again.
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
already asked and answered. Guess you are not paying attention. Here it is again.
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
Can't really show you when when only a couple of developers have tried it so far. In the mean while, on the basis of these two titles, GW2 and WoW, you are saying e-sports ruins MMORPGs.
Are you ready to admit how ludicrous this thread is?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
To me, this thread is starting to resemble the age old Sandbox discussion.
Lots of terms bandied about but no one agreeing on what they mean. My take on GW and WoW is that they are simply hybrids, MMO's with a bit of MOBA thrown in on the side. So you can have your MMO and eat your Esport too.
I think what OP is looking for here is a full blown MMO designed with only e-sport in mind. Something like world of tanks perhaps except that instead of killing all the tanks on the opposing team, the objective might be winning a war through some pre-determined set of goals. But as soon as you do that it once again just evolves into a MOBA with longer term objectives than just killing a handful of other players. Maybe thats the point here.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
eSports has worked for some mmos the problem is most people are comparing moderate success to blockbuster levels of interest. If 10k viewers mean it was very successful then it was successful, but because most people only refer to millions of interested fans viewing said event they automatically assume it is a failure when it is not.
To me, this thread is starting to resemble the age old Sandbox discussion.
Lots of terms bandied about but no one agreeing on what they mean. My take on GW and WoW is that they are simply hybrids, MMO's with a bit of MOBA thrown in on the side. So you can have your MMO and eat your Esport too.
I think what OP is looking for here is a full blown MMO designed with only e-sport in mind. Something like world of tanks perhaps except that instead of killing all the tanks on the opposing team, the objective might be winning a war through some pre-determined set of goals. But as soon as you do that it once again just evolves into a MOBA with longer term objectives than just killing a handful of other players. Maybe thats the point here.
If that's the case, how many actually esports games are there?
It is so few, I'm not sure why the OP are surprise non of the mmorpg make it.
Most games that focus on esports can't even become esports, it's not a surprise mmorpg can't. There's too many balance issue.
The OP sounds like those people who says mmorpg shouldn't have single player questing, since other SRPG do it better.
If that's the case, how many actually esports games are there?
It is so few, I'm not sure why the OP are surprise non of the mmorpg make it.
Most games that focus on esports can't even become esports, it's not a surprise mmorpg can't. There's too many balance issue.
The OP sounds like those people who says mmorpg shouldn't have single player questing, since other SRPG do it better.
I have no idea how many are out there, in your opinion. Because I have no idea what you define as an e-sport.
Also I am not sure what your third paragraph is supposed to mean. How does balance affect whether a game is an e-sport or not? Is there balance in real sports as well? Are players on a baseball team equally balanced? That would make for a fairly boring game I would think.
A better question would be, " Why do we find the need to combine MMO and e-sport" IMO there is no benefit to combining the two. Unless you feel that MMO's are designed to be won.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I agree that MMOs are not going to be 'real' esports, especially when most of the content is PVE.
However, If they have areas setup to allow for competitive play like GW2 then supporting the tournament scene is a good way to market the game as it will generate more interest than most forms of advertising.
One 30 second TV commercial could finance an entire season of tournaments, and why not give your hardcore players some visibility and a bit of prize money when they are willing to put in thousands of hours to showcase the game at the highest levels.
Esport does work,it attracts million of gamer's who only care about ratings and making money,that couldn't care less about the game. I simply look at that super bad game super smash bros,that game ONLY exists and survives based on epsort,otherwise it deserves to be tossed into the garbage.Yes i know Super Smash is not an mmo but are any of these games really mmos?
They all have login screens and you interact with maybe 5 people or none at all,so what is the difference?
It also takes VERY little effort to add in esport ladders,ratings into your game,like one guy can set that up in a month.Look at Blizzard's hearthstone Blizzard did absolutely nothing except create a ranking system,nothing more ,well one tournament a year lmao.If that game had no rankings it would already be dead in the water.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
Can't really show you when when only a couple of developers have tried it so far. In the mean while, on the basis of these two titles, GW2 and WoW, you are saying e-sports ruins MMORPGs.
Are you ready to admit how ludicrous this thread is?
Certainly Wow's was a big hit in the game. This thread is a fail.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I don't really care about eSports or PvP in general, but I do hate it when a game tries to be both a PvE MMO and a PvP eSport, and the eSport starts to affect the PvE. That was one of my biggest pet peeves about WoW - my character would get nerfed in PvE, not because it broke PvE content, but because it was out of balance in PvP.
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
Can't really show you when when only a couple of developers have tried it so far. In the mean while, on the basis of these two titles, GW2 and WoW, you are saying e-sports ruins MMORPGs.
Are you ready to admit how ludicrous this thread is?
Arenanet is forcing PvP on PvE players by adding PvP only materials to a PvE only mastery. That's the only reason PvP has a decently sized community. No one cares about the e-sports lol. They get, what, 600 viewers on twitch on a good day?
I am reading these comments. Show me MMO games that have good E-sports. Don't tell me about LoL or GW1 neither of which are MMOs and both were built from the ground up to be PvP games, which GW1 added PvE as a second nature to the PvP.
So show me these MMOs with great E-sports!
Even blizzard later on said regret arena but it is too late to change it now.
Yeah, GW1 was built from the ground up to have good PvP. That's what it takes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that a game with PvP as an afterthought has bad PvP.
You still haven't shown me MMOs with good E-sports.
So far, only Arenanet, and to a lesser degree, Blizzard have put a major focus on their competitive PvP. Still, competitive PvP is far more popular in gaming than open world PvP. Even without normalized gear and character levels instanced PvP is more popular than open world PvP.
How is it bad to offer players what they want?
Show me a MMO where that have worked
Can't really show you when when only a couple of developers have tried it so far. In the mean while, on the basis of these two titles, GW2 and WoW, you are saying e-sports ruins MMORPGs.
Are you ready to admit how ludicrous this thread is?
Certainly Wow's was a big hit in the game. This thread is a fail.
Exactly. Its a 50% success rate among games OP considers to be MMORPGs. I'd say that's pretty good.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Arenanet is forcing PvP on PvE players by adding PvP only materials to a PvE only mastery. That's the only reason PvP has a decently sized community. No one cares about the e-sports lol. They get, what, 600 viewers on twitch on a good day?
GW2's cough cough esports is a huge success. You might laugh at me on what I"m saying....
I'm saying many people choose to play GW2 just because it have one of the best pvp "for a mmorpg".
Arenanet didn't even do anything except pay a small fee for tournament rewards.
Esport does work,it attracts million of gamer's who only care about ratings and making money,that couldn't care less about the game. I simply look at that super bad game super smash bros,that game ONLY exists and survives based on epsort,otherwise it deserves to be tossed into the garbage.Yes i know Super Smash is not an mmo but are any of these games really mmos?
They all have login screens and you interact with maybe 5 people or none at all,so what is the difference?
It also takes VERY little effort to add in esport ladders,ratings into your game,like one guy can set that up in a month.Look at Blizzard's hearthstone Blizzard did absolutely nothing except create a ranking system,nothing more ,well one tournament a year lmao.If that game had no rankings it would already be dead in the water.
Simply putting in a ladder doesn't make an e-sports game. It actually has to have good PvP in order to make it as an e-sport. For example Starcraft 2 was up and running in just 2 years in the making, but took another 3 years to be polished, balanced and tweaked for PvP.
Pretty much everything you wrote is wrong. It demonstrates how little you know about the subject.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Esport does work,it attracts million of gamer's who only care about ratings and making money,that couldn't care less about the game. I simply look at that super bad game super smash bros,that game ONLY exists and survives based on epsort,otherwise it deserves to be tossed into the garbage.Yes i know Super Smash is not an mmo but are any of these games really mmos?
They all have login screens and you interact with maybe 5 people or none at all,so what is the difference?
It also takes VERY little effort to add in esport ladders,ratings into your game,like one guy can set that up in a month.Look at Blizzard's hearthstone Blizzard did absolutely nothing except create a ranking system,nothing more ,well one tournament a year lmao.If that game had no rankings it would already be dead in the water.
Simply putting in a ladder doesn't make an e-sports game. It actually has to have good PvP in order to make it as an e-sport. For example Starcraft 2 was up and running in just 2 years in the making, but took another 3 years to be polished, balanced and tweaked for PvP.
Pretty much everything you wrote is wrong. It demonstrates how little you know about the subject.
Everything is relative. The whole point is a few games is "more" successful because it have a competitive system. And being promote of it.
OP is obviously a carebear if you want pve try the singleplayer gaming genre. Pvp in an mmorpg is pretty much the entire point of the game. Without ganking and being ganked in games how could you possibly stand the leveling process. "Kill 10 raccoons" OMG SO FUN. As for esports the only thing that comes to mind in an mmorpg is the arena in wow which was an extremely fun addition. Raiding on the other hand (besides a few bosses with interesting/difficult mechanics) was literally hitting a couple of buttons in a rotation, it is boring and easy as fuck.
If that's the case, how many actually esports games are there?
It is so few, I'm not sure why the OP are surprise non of the mmorpg make it.
Most games that focus on esports can't even become esports, it's not a surprise mmorpg can't. There's too many balance issue.
The OP sounds like those people who says mmorpg shouldn't have single player questing, since other SRPG do it better.
Also I am not sure what your third paragraph is supposed to mean. How does balance affect whether a game is an e-sport or not? Is there balance in real sports as well? Are players on a baseball team equally balanced? That would make for a fairly boring game I would think.
Yes there is balance in real sports, which you can see in a variety of aspects.
For example, in your baseball example, all players have access to similar gear. There might be some slight differences, but one team is not wielding the+15 bat of pawning noobs or fiery ball of death while the other team has a matchstick for a bat and pitches a table tennis ball (that is how gear-gaps function in most mmos).
Second, the teams are all the same size, third they have leagues- your pro-team is not matching off against the local under 15s, etc. There is even drug testing to make sure one team is not getting an unfair advantage through the use of illicit substances.
Just a few examples, but as you can see, sports have a strong focus on providing a balanced playfield. Its no fun watching or playing in highly unbalanced matches, and this is the prime mistake nearly every mmo makes.
Just a few examples, but as you can see, sports have a strong focus on providing a balanced playfield. Its no fun watching or playing in highly unbalanced matches, and this is the prime mistake nearly every mmo makes.
what unbalance matches?
For example, in GW2, any e-sport player has access to all the classes, at max levels, and all the gear. Sure someone may choose a different gear set than you do, but it is fair, because in principle, whatever they use is available to you.
I think WoW is the same.
You don't think e-sports matches are played with characters you have to level up, and get gear for, do you?
Comments
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- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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Philosophy of MMO Game Design
world of tanks
http://venturebeat.com/2016/01/15/esports-viewership-has-grown-100-in-the-past-two-years/
#6 on the most popular e-sports list in the article.
You can play an MMORPG like an E-sport and many do. Probably 75 % of the people on this forum use this playstyle IMO, but sorry no facts to support this, other than the present number of comments on how MMO's lack challenge.
So while there is a simple reason why it doesn't work, that will never stop people from trying
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
And it is classified as a MMO by this site. So yeah, keep ignoring MMOs that invalidate your point.
Are you ready to admit how ludicrous this thread is?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Probably every single mmorpg with instanced pvp.
Just because no one watch water polo, don't mean it is not a sport.
Lots of terms bandied about but no one agreeing on what they mean. My take on GW and WoW is that they are simply hybrids, MMO's with a bit of MOBA thrown in on the side. So you can have your MMO and eat your Esport too.
I think what OP is looking for here is a full blown MMO designed with only e-sport in mind. Something like world of tanks perhaps except that instead of killing all the tanks on the opposing team, the objective might be winning a war through some pre-determined set of goals. But as soon as you do that it once again just evolves into a MOBA with longer term objectives than just killing a handful of other players. Maybe thats the point here.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If that's the case, how many actually esports games are there?
It is so few, I'm not sure why the OP are surprise non of the mmorpg make it.
Most games that focus on esports can't even become esports, it's not a surprise mmorpg can't. There's too many balance issue.
The OP sounds like those people who says mmorpg shouldn't have single player questing, since other SRPG do it better.
Also I am not sure what your third paragraph is supposed to mean. How does balance affect whether a game is an e-sport or not? Is there balance in real sports as well? Are players on a baseball team equally balanced? That would make for a fairly boring game I would think.
A better question would be, " Why do we find the need to combine MMO and e-sport" IMO there is no benefit to combining the two. Unless you feel that MMO's are designed to be won.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
However, If they have areas setup to allow for competitive play like GW2 then supporting the tournament scene is a good way to market the game as it will generate more interest than most forms of advertising.
One 30 second TV commercial could finance an entire season of tournaments, and why not give your hardcore players some visibility and a bit of prize money when they are willing to put in thousands of hours to showcase the game at the highest levels.
I simply look at that super bad game super smash bros,that game ONLY exists and survives based on epsort,otherwise it deserves to be tossed into the garbage.Yes i know Super Smash is not an mmo but are any of these games really mmos?
They all have login screens and you interact with maybe 5 people or none at all,so what is the difference?
It also takes VERY little effort to add in esport ladders,ratings into your game,like one guy can set that up in a month.Look at Blizzard's hearthstone Blizzard did absolutely nothing except create a ranking system,nothing more ,well one tournament a year lmao.If that game had no rankings it would already be dead in the water.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Certainly Wow's was a big hit in the game. This thread is a fail.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
GW2's cough cough esports is a huge success. You might laugh at me on what I"m saying....
I'm saying many people choose to play GW2 just because it have one of the best pvp "for a mmorpg".
Arenanet didn't even do anything except pay a small fee for tournament rewards.
Pretty much everything you wrote is wrong. It demonstrates how little you know about the subject.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
hi
For example, in your baseball example, all players have access to similar gear. There might be some slight differences, but one team is not wielding the+15 bat of pawning noobs or fiery ball of death while the other team has a matchstick for a bat and pitches a table tennis ball (that is how gear-gaps function in most mmos).
Second, the teams are all the same size, third they have leagues- your pro-team is not matching off against the local under 15s, etc. There is even drug testing to make sure one team is not getting an unfair advantage through the use of illicit substances.
Just a few examples, but as you can see, sports have a strong focus on providing a balanced playfield. Its no fun watching or playing in highly unbalanced matches, and this is the prime mistake nearly every mmo makes.
For example, in GW2, any e-sport player has access to all the classes, at max levels, and all the gear. Sure someone may choose a different gear set than you do, but it is fair, because in principle, whatever they use is available to you.
I think WoW is the same.
You don't think e-sports matches are played with characters you have to level up, and get gear for, do you?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver