One thing that concerns me most about pvp focused games is power gaps. By that I mean the power gap between a very well geared player and a player in average gear. To illustrate here are some examples of power gaps in other mmos on a scale of 1 (least gap) to 4 (highest gap):
1. GW2 Spvp: No gear/level advantage whatsoever.
2. GW2 WvW: The blue pvp gear (basically average/good gear) is fairly easy to get just by pvping, while the strongest gear is quite difficult to get but doesn't give a huge advantage over the basic pvp gear.
3. ESO: Average/good gear is fairly expensive and for the average player would require pve grinding to get it faster. Top gear is very expensive. The difference between a well geared player and a player in average gear is as far apart as heaven and earth (for example a well geared player will basically two shot a player in average gear, while receiving very little damage themselves, have high resource regen, etc.).
4. Tera: Similar to ESO except more pve grinding is needed and the best gear is also gated through rng (although you could probably just buy it for a lot of money).
For those people that are playing in the alpha or talk on the CU forums, where do you think CU will stand in a list like this? Obviously the game is not a semi-moba like GW2's spvp, but is the feeling among the community and the devs that the gear gap should be large like in many other mmos, or is the game leaning toward more of a horizontal power scaling, where actual knowledge of game mechanics and group play far outweigh gear?
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Comments
If CU followed ESO model I would be very pleased. The best gear in game is crafted and easy to get.
Until they get to the point of actually adding progression and gear into testing it is hard to say for sure exactly how it will work however.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
meddyck said: That sounds good, although I didn't realize the game was still at such an early stage development wise.
Gaming.Rocks said: I think this sounds fine on paper, but in reality it will be hard for a game to capture the fighting skill required to overcome such odds. That to me sounds like the kind of 5vs1 scenario I see a lot in most other mmos (one OP player in body armor with a nice sharp sword taking out groups of newer players armed with rags and a butter knife).
For instance, a player who builds themselves up for melee combat should be pretty susceptible to magic.
So, the above-mentioned melee guy may be a devastating power-house if you go up against him blade against blade, but a caster could potentially pick him apart.
Obviously, there needs to be skill involved, and a guy shouldn't be a god if he doesn't know what he's doing, but as a general balancing tool for skills/gear.
I think the problems arise when you can have everything and start to deviate from the rock-paper-scissors style philosophies... the same problems we've all seen time and time again when developers try to make it so everyone is "evenly balanced".
People are always so worried about balance, but it's usually those attempts to balance every class out that cause things to go downhill in the long run.
For example, most people will claim that the mmo they like has fairly balanced pvp, but the only mmo that has come close to that for me was GW2 spvp pre-HoT. I still play and like games that aren't so focused on balance, but I am hoping that if the gear-gap is meant to be small, it is quite a bit smaller than the "small" gear-gap in ESO that has allowed play like this:
Again, why don't you compare other Mark Jacobs games to CU?
Here, I will help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jacobs_(video_game_designer)
You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you.
Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear.
It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit.
CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did
edit: Wait, I just realized... is this the argument? Do you suppose some joe off the street is supposed to ding max level and automatically have some 50 50 chance to 1v1 someone with 200+ hours invested? What the actual hell, guys. That's really a strange position.
further edit: See, when you argue gear disparity, you're supposed to be arguing all other conditions being equal. You're being disingenuous. Same level of IQ opponents, same time investiture, gear becomes only a matter of focused particular stat in a rock-paper-scissors game. That's always how Warhammer was. This weird idea you should be able to walk in with 50 hours, plus the baseline capacity to pound square pegs through square holes, and walk over a person with more time in, is twisted. No player in Warhammer I ever saw, unless fighting against people who had no clue, could win more than a desperate 2v1, and those were really competent DoKs and warpriests.
I understand completely your view on the matter, are you a backer? If so does the rest of the CU community generally feel the same way about gear/balance as you have illustrated in your posts?
Of course the positives of the armor should outweigh the minuses, but having some minuses could keep the armor from providing too much of a competitive advantage.
for now dont clue since i hardcore pvp and still play gw2/eso and now warhammer as well
One of the great things about WAR was how it was basically designed so you could just pvp, I also liked how they attempted to create some balance by having tiered zones (although in some ways this may have backfired). But yeah, the difference in gear scaling did seem fairly large.
Seriously man top teir players in ESO still run v14 stuff while cap is 16. Imagine in a game like WoW if people were wearing gear two levels lower than cap they would get crushed and be considered nobs. That's gear gap.
I think I understand what you are saying though. Gear should be about flavor not power. If that's what you are saying I'll agree. I'd love that for CU. ESO gear does add power though tiers, but it may be the smallest power creep on the market today.
However, if CU is built to favor a kind of "gear race" that's ok, I'm not a backer so I don't have any right to ask for change or whatever, its just something I would like to know more about concerning CU since it looks like an amazing game.
And to be honest I'd say about time... I never understand why, if i'm looking for some good endgame pvp, I have to grind 2 months of useless, boring, repetitive stuff.
And since camelot unchained is supposed to be for pvp/rvr lovers I really hope they'll go for that.
I think the only thing that came close to that was gw2.. you could gear up easily and play your cards against other people with not so much gear imbalance. Too bad the wvw mechanic was not good enough.
I loved too WAR and I think it would've been awesome if they didn't go for that crazy renown rank gear imbalance... they also promised fair pvp and not too much grind but again failed...
ESO also I tried and OH GOSH between the time to level, gear and champion points the power gap is atrocious and it will take months to chase...
MAybe for the end of the year between CU, crowfall and das taal something will come up...
was so fun
i droped eso when they fixed my vamp DK but will remember this memory
In a PvP game, the outcome is supposed to be based off player skill. If the game introduces power gaps, the outcome of a fight becomes skewed in favour of the person with power. Its not fun for the loser and quickly stops being fun for the winner.
If the power gap is further restricted by time, i.e. you can't reach a certain power level until you've invested enough time, then it fucks up the whole game as it did with WAR. For example, if you joined WAR 6 months after launch, then you would have to play 4 hours a day for 4 months or more before you even became competitive. How is that fun? How is that balanced?
I don't expect someone fresh to level cap to have 50/50 chance of beating a vet. However, I expect the vet to win because they have a higher skill level as a result of time invested, not because they have a higher gear score.
Did you not notice that WAR had one of the worst retention rates ever? Beyond all the gameplay problems, even if you enjoyed the game and the pvp it still sucked if you were behind the gear curve. As for never seeing people winning 2v1s etc, you must be blind. I played a black orc, not even a particularly good soloer. When I reached RR68 or so and had nearly full sovereign gear, I could solo small groups of lower geared players easily. My best record was winning 5v1, and yes, they had a healer. However, they were all lower ranked (r40rr30-50) which meant i had nearly double their health but more importantly, I mitigated nearly all their damage. I didn't win through skill, I won through gear and the crazy power gap.
Power gaps suck.
In a PvP game, power gaps drive away new players and eventually kill the game.
CU should avoid power gaps.
In CU there will still be progression, but the vertical scale will be much more reasonable. So a veteran might only be able to kill a small group of new players, or maybe even less if they are smart. This allows new players to still contribute, as veterans are not completely impervious as in traditional MMOs.
Instead there will be a lot more emphasis on horisontal progression. Your character will gain more options rather than simply raise damage numbers to astronomical levels.