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I just can't support a game by the people who killed UO and SWG

madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 1,971
First you have Gordon Walton.

He came into UO and the first thing he did was introduce UO: Renaissance. Which many of you may recognize as the expansion that brought us Trammel and killed UO. After that he brought UO: Third Dawn, the bug ridden piece of crap update that introduced the first 3D client for Ultima Online.

Then you have the creepy looking Thomas Blair.

He was on the EQ team originally, and then moved on to SWG. He joined while they were working on Jump to Lightspeed. From there he moved on to creating Trials of Obi-Wan. This is the expansion that brought in the NGE. The one that got rid of all the custom classes and simplified everything.

Not to forget Tully Ackland as well. He was part of the Mass Effect 3 team. He was the primary person involved with the ending that pissed everyone off.

Have fun with this game. Two of the main people involved are known for shitty overhauls that hurt already established communities. They offer lay-away for in game items. They used backer money for development to hire a video team on full time to do their interviews, while asking for more development money. They have a fundamental issue with punishing people that leave the game early. Basically planning to punish quitters who are overwhelmed during that particular reset which as we all know will result in many not even returning. They have already admitted via an AMA on reddit that they cannot think of a carrot to dangle to keep people returning regardless of the in game w/l situation. So basically, if you quit not only do you get a loss, but you will also be punished, with nothing making you want to return to a game where you will consistently be out matched.

I predict a huge crash and burn with this one.

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Comments

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,076
    I like your overly simplified world... can i get a green card there? It seems a ton easier than the real world. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    It was AoS that killed UO.

  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member UncommonPosts: 587
    crowfall = new the wildstar flop of 2016/2017 mark my words
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Discussion.....where?
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 5,973
    Msybe you, OP, should check out who is working on the games you currently play. Maybe some skeletons in the closet; people who have worked on other games that disappointed you. The fact that they may have worked at the direction of someone else - well just forget about that. Sheesh there are probably few games you will be able to play!

    Neither of the people you talk about are "behind" Crowfall; the driving force is J. Todd Coleman.

    And the planned design of Crowfall is rooted in an earlier game not a new one namely Shadowfall. So its not a case of inventing something new but of bringing back to life an existing design.
  • sirozzysirozzy Member UncommonPosts: 29
    madazz said:
    First you have Gordon Walton.

    He came into UO and the first thing he did was introduce UO: Renaissance. Which many of you may recognize as the expansion that brought us Trammel and killed UO. After that he brought UO: Third Dawn, the bug ridden piece of crap update that introduced the first 3D client for Ultima Online.

    Then you have the creepy looking Thomas Blair.

    He was on the EQ team originally, and then moved on to SWG. He joined while they were working on Jump to Lightspeed. From there he moved on to creating Trials of Obi-Wan. This is the expansion that brought in the NGE. The one that got rid of all the custom classes and simplified everything.

    Not to forget Tully Ackland as well. He was part of the Mass Effect 3 team. He was the primary person involved with the ending that pissed everyone off.

    Have fun with this game. Two of the main people involved are known for shitty overhauls that hurt already established communities. They offer lay-away for in game items. They used backer money for development to hire a video team on full time to do their interviews, while asking for more development money. They have a fundamental issue with punishing people that leave the game early. Basically planning to punish quitters who are overwhelmed during that particular reset which as we all know will result in many not even returning. They have already admitted via an AMA on reddit that they cannot think of a carrot to dangle to keep people returning regardless of the in game w/l situation. So basically, if you quit not only do you get a loss, but you will also be punished, with nothing making you want to return to a game where you will consistently be out matched.

    I predict a huge crash and burn with this one.

    acutally it was Walton as well who brought us the NGE not Blixtev.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,689
    "Then you have the creepy looking Thomas Blair."

    Now there is as good a reason as any I've ever seen to not support a game. You've sold me. Can't be a good developer.........right?
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,705
    gervaise1 said:

    And the planned design of Crowfall is rooted in an earlier game not a new one namely Shadowfall. So its not a case of inventing something new but of bringing back to life an existing design.
    I think you mean ShadowBANE.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GazimoffGazimoff Staff WriterMember UncommonPosts: 224
    madazz said:

    Not to forget Tully Ackland as well. He was part of the Mass Effect 3 team. He was the primary person involved with the ending that pissed everyone off.

    This is incorrect.

    I know Tully. He used to work at EA UK in Guildford, as part of the European community team on SWTOR, Mass Effect and a couple of other titles. He was in no way involved in setting the story direction for Mass Effect 3, or how the game ended, but was heavily involved in managing social media channels and forums when the whole thing kicked off. If anything, he gets my sympathy for having to deal with the huge outcry, but isn't responsible for the decisions that led to it.
    Player of games, smither of words, former of opinions, and masher of keys. WildStar Columnist
    Currently playing: WildStar, Guild Wars 2, EVE Online, Vain Glory.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 859
    edited January 2016
    madazz said:
    First you have Gordon Walton.

    He came into UO and the first thing he did was introduce UO: Renaissance. Which many of you may recognize as the expansion that brought us Trammel and killed UO. After that he brought UO: Third Dawn, the bug ridden piece of crap update that introduced the first 3D client for Ultima Online.


    You mean the expansion that actually made Ultima Onlines population rise. How can something that makes a game more popular be its killer?

    Oh yeah. You didn't enjoy it. Therefore, it must of killed the game and you can speak for everyone. Bitch please!

    I personally loved UO:R. Doubled the size of the world and introduced new housing design. I was in Chaos at the time and UO:R allowed me hunt without worrying about getting ganked. Then after I made some cash I would head over to Fel or all my pvp needs. 

    It was literally the best thing to ever happen to UO.
  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,612
    edited January 2016
    Ummm Op, the SWG TOOW development team was unaware of the NGE that was being developed in secrecy and rushed in 6 months.

    In fact, TOOW was a working expansion which got rendered broken only AFTER the NGE hit.

    if you want to blame a few, blame Smedley and Nancy Mcintyre (lucasarts at the time) who openly stated she was willing to sacrifcice the disgruntled SWG veteran base in order to lure in the WoW fanbase.
    She even stated the SWG veterans wouldn't quit for real and the ones that actuallydid quit would come back soon anyway.

    History proved her wrong though.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • NordicApacheNordicApache Member UncommonPosts: 132
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
    Good times indeed! 
  • DaakkonDaakkon Member UncommonPosts: 570
    Trials of Obi-Wan didn't bring the NGE, that was patched into the game two weeks after it's release. 
  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
    Kudos to a PK who actually can back being HC by more than just ganking noobs :)

    Siege was way too HC for me. I enjoyed my time on Europa RP communities. Plenty of PvP there too, but of course as casual as it comes.
  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    tom_gore said:
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
    Kudos to a PK who actually can back being HC by more than just ganking noobs :)

    Siege was way too HC for me. I enjoyed my time on Europa RP communities. Plenty of PvP there too, but of course as casual as it comes.

    We actually RP'd on Siege was how hardcore we were :)

    We wouldn't even kill people we'd happen across/hunt in the wilds, we'd demand tribute, drop some $ or an item on the ground and we'd let you live.

    We also would not loot weapons/armor that we didn't/couldn't use because of our RP rules. No plate, no swords, etc. We'd leave that stuff on the corpse.

    We purposefully handicapped ourselves in ways, which made victory far more thrilling.

    Lots of great wars... lots of great times.
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    edited January 2016
    Gordon talked about his connections with Trammel (and all that stuff) on Crowfall forums - here's the thread http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/ ...and here's Gordon's first answer (there is couple more later on) - http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/#entry1610

    Edit: He also wrote extensively about his role in the NGE; Interesting that he personally started the discussion!? - http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5792-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-the-nge/
     W...aaagh?
  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,072
    edited January 2016
    tom_gore said:
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
    Kudos to a PK who actually can back being HC by more than just ganking noobs :)

    Siege was way too HC for me. I enjoyed my time on Europa RP communities. Plenty of PvP there too, but of course as casual as it comes.
    Look, I don't want to make this thread about why UO went to shit (but I'm going to anyway). All of us who were PvP'ing and Towning didn't want to make a switch to a new server, with slower skill gain rates, where all of our pre-established communities, housing, and characters were already located so that players who didn't understand the concept of the Ultima world (open and free, with all of the consequences therein) could play without threat of player dangers. I really don't care that it saved their population, it ruined the base of their game, and ultimately lead to what it is now: stale and redundant, doing things that games made for PvE achieve with far greater success.

    Siege Perilous was great. Really, they could have not afforded that option at all, and given those of us who enjoyed the game pre-Ren a hearty "fuck you", but it ultimately lead to the vast majority of players I knew, and who we knew through interaction with other guilds, to leave the game. Staying afloat and betraying the original concept, I can't get behind it. It was a purely economic decision, and still doesn't sit well with many of the original adopters that I've known personally. Experiences may differ.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,081
    edited January 2016
    Not even the best developers in the world can turn a low budget into a great game.
    Here is how i summarize Mr.Coleman.

    He comes up with a few good ideas.He puts together a decent team,he does not plan ahead,he plans for the now and budget now.His animation teams seem to be pretty good,i never have any complaints on any of their work over any of the games.SYSTEMS one of the most rewarding and hardest aspect to do in games.I feel his teams have been and will continue to be lacking in this area.Again you can pull that off in a predominantly pvp game because it doesn't need many systems.
    In this case basically i see only pvp type players wanting to play,he can pull it off because a pvp game does not need any direction or planning,you can wing it as you go.

    He has that one idea that lures people in,the idea of owning a plot and building a castle on it.Only problem is it will be VERY limited and people are not seeing that.Also that is an aspect of the game that should be 100% inside the game and not part of the CS.
    Why are you going to play,why are you going to pvp,questions that you should ask yourself before playing ANY game.If you cannot give yourself really good answers then guess what,the game is really not for you.

    On the topic of NGE ,not really related here other than with the employees,my personal feeling is that was something that NEEDED to happen just not done the way it was done.You do NOT wait until your game is a ghost town before seeing red flags and needing to improve your game.That is what SOE did lead by Smedley,he waits until a ghost town then just closes it down.That is called VERY poor leadership.To be fair perhaps that NGE tainted Smedley for life because after that he seemed reluctant to do any major changes in games other than to support CS.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • nimander99nimander99 Member UncommonPosts: 288

    You know what? And correct me if I'm wrong here, but has one of these "Big named Devs" from the 80's and 90's actually created a playable game yet? No perma Alpha doesn't count...


    All it seems to me is get a bit a money from some unnamed backers then run a Kickstarted Campaign... but what game has actually been released?


    Me thinks new blood is needed...

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,541
    OP's got next to nothing right in his screed. 

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 437
    madazz said:
    First you have Gordon Walton.

    He came into UO and the first thing he did was introduce UO: Renaissance. Which many of you may recognize as the expansion that brought us Trammel and killed UO. After that he brought UO: Third Dawn, the bug ridden piece of crap update that introduced the first 3D client for Ultima Online.

    Then you have the creepy looking Thomas Blair.

    He was on the EQ team originally, and then moved on to SWG. He joined while they were working on Jump to Lightspeed. From there he moved on to creating Trials of Obi-Wan. This is the expansion that brought in the NGE. The one that got rid of all the custom classes and simplified everything.

    Not to forget Tully Ackland as well. He was part of the Mass Effect 3 team. He was the primary person involved with the ending that pissed everyone off.

    I know this is a hard concept to understand, but sometimes people actually learn from their mistakes. JamesGoblin already posted what Gordon had to say about Trammel and NGE. Here's what Thomas Blair had to say about SWG:

    http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/10419-vessel-system-crafting/page-3#entry250503

    [quote]The glue that kept all these spheres working together was deeply rooted in 3 rules:

    Everything wears out,

    Accounts only have 1 character per server, (effectively 1 char per account)

    A player can only buy so many skill boxes per character.

    It is amazing how broken the spheres became as the first 2 rules were eroded over time (ironically "because it would make the players happier")

    Crafters took a huge hit from the veteran reward Anti Decay Kit. (This also introduced the escalating arms race with items, new items had to be much better to be considered for usage)

    Crafters / Doctors / Entertainers took a MASSIVE hit from multiple characters allowed on an account. Entire gameplay spheres once required by the Combatants became "alts", only logged in for brief periods to Buff/Craft an item.  

    *sigh* lessons learned the hard way from working on the Live team.[/quote]

    madazz said:
    They offer lay-away for in game items. They used backer money for development to hire a video team on full time to do their interviews, while asking for more development money. They have a fundamental issue with punishing people that leave the game early. Basically planning to punish quitters who are overwhelmed during that particular reset which as we all know will result in many not even returning. They have already admitted via an AMA on reddit that they cannot think of a carrot to dangle to keep people returning regardless of the in game w/l situation. So basically, if you quit not only do you get a loss, but you will also be punished, with nothing making you want to return to a game where you will consistently be out matched.

    I predict a huge crash and burn with this one.

    What's wrong with layaway? The in-game items that can be purchased do not affect your power in the game. 

    Yes, there was a stretch goal to pay for a video guy (not an entire team). Since it isn't your money they spent on him, why are you worried about how they are spending it? None of the people who actually contributed money to this game complain about it, but keep acting like it matters. I'm confident that every dollar that they have collected is being well spent to make the game as good as it can be, and that includes having a video guy who can help them get the word out to more players.

    Regarding your reddit comment, nice job taking things out of context. It looks like you just searched the Crowfall board here on MMORPG for the complaint threads and regurgitated whatever they said. For the record, nothing has been determined yet regarding how they will handle players leaving a campaign before it ends. All that has been said is that they want to find ways to keep players in campaigns until the end and, whether that involves carrots, sticks, or both, they have yet to decide.

  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 437

    Wizardry said:
    Not even the best developers in the world can turn a low budget into a great game.
    Here is how i summarize Mr.Coleman.

    He comes up with a few good ideas.He puts together a decent team,he does not plan ahead,he plans for the now and budget now.His animation teams seem to be pretty good,i never have any complaints on any of their work over any of the games.SYSTEMS one of the most rewarding and hardest aspect to do in games.I feel his teams have been and will continue to be lacking in this area.Again you can pull that off in a predominantly pvp game because it doesn't need many systems.
    In this case basically i see only pvp type players wanting to play,he can pull it off because a pvp game does not need any direction or planning,you can wing it as you go.

    He has that one idea that lures people in,the idea of owning a plot and building a castle on it.Only problem is it will be VERY limited and people are not seeing that.Also that is an aspect of the game that should be 100% inside the game and not part of the CS.
    Why are you going to play,why are you going to pvp,questions that you should ask yourself before playing ANY game.If you cannot give yourself really good answers then guess what,the game is really not for you.

    On the topic of NGE ,not really related here other than with the employees,my personal feeling is that was something that NEEDED to happen just not done the way it was done.You do NOT wait until your game is a ghost town before seeing red flags and needing to improve your game.That is what SOE did lead by Smedley,he waits until a ghost town then just closes it down.That is called VERY poor leadership.To be fair perhaps that NGE tainted Smedley for life because after that he seemed reluctant to do any major changes in games other than to support CS.


    This is funny. Someone who doesn't actually follow the game lecturing others about what we don't realize about the game. CF is based on a lot more than just building a castle.

    If J.Todd Coleman doesn't plan ahead, then no one does, because ACE has displayed a clear vision and direction for the game since day 1. What they are doing is a breath of fresh air compared to what we have seen from other game companies is recent years. They clearly have a plan and they are executing it step by step. It's not their fault that you are unable to see it.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,705
    I always get a laugh when people complain about developers actually doing what they said they would do:  Hey why are they "wasting" money on a video guy?  Hey why is Chris Roberts "wasting" money on movie actors?

    LOL

    Just bide your time.  These games will be released and when they come out folks will decide whether or not they deliver what was promised.   The only way to guarantee they DON'T deliver what was promised is to ignore the goals and deliverables outlined in their Kickstarters...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    heerobya said:
    tom_gore said:
    Another clueless PKer who thinks Renaissance killed UO when it actually saved it from dying.

    Yup!

    Origin was SO smart, actually, that when they released Renaissance they kept one server at the old, hardcore FFA PvP only ruleset - Siege Perilous, so anyone with any balls went there.

    Most PK don't have any balls, far from it, as the concept of a fair fight terrifies them. Makes them piss their ball-free panties.

    It was amazing, I played on both Siege and Atlantic, was a PK on Siege and did mostly PvE and some Faction Warfare on Atlantic.

    Council of Mages for life!
    Kudos to a PK who actually can back being HC by more than just ganking noobs :)

    Siege was way too HC for me. I enjoyed my time on Europa RP communities. Plenty of PvP there too, but of course as casual as it comes.

    We actually RP'd on Siege was how hardcore we were :)

    We wouldn't even kill people we'd happen across/hunt in the wilds, we'd demand tribute, drop some $ or an item on the ground and we'd let you live.

    We also would not loot weapons/armor that we didn't/couldn't use because of our RP rules. No plate, no swords, etc. We'd leave that stuff on the corpse.

    We purposefully handicapped ourselves in ways, which made victory far more thrilling.

    Lots of great wars... lots of great times.
    Yeah I know there was a thriving RP scene on Siege, too. Perhaps even more so as everyone was limited to one character and not everyone was 7x GM.

    Would be nice if some game some time would try to recreate the RP environment UO made possible.
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