"Variety" has been the constant reason I've cited for questing, including the post you just responded to.
Still on this vein of misinformation?
Here is the single sentence of clarity to point out the fundamental problem of this argument.
What you are arguing as the merit for questing is simply the idea that people get a bonus for changing activities up every so often, questing itself has nothing to do with it.
You can make an open system that has XP bonus and degradation that would instill the same concept into the game without the need of railroading the players into specific chain of tasks to repeat.
If the goal is to reward players seeking variety, that is very doable without quests. Saying they are the be-all solution and source of the variety on display is very simply, wrong.
The complaint of quests being themselves grindy comes from the frequently used structure in games of quests being one of several core objectives and gameplay elements strung together in a chain. While "quests do not all use the same mechanic" they do use a sequence of the same mechanics that ultimately loop many times over during the course of play.
Grinding may not be questing, but the format of many MMORPGs quests are certainly a grind.
The "more variety" shtick was also proven false a long time back, with the revelation that the only way you establish that claim is through the focus on a very specific component of the gameplay. It's a no-brainer that killing two different creatures is more variety than killing one, quests are not the impetus for that condition.
As the for "a lot of quest hubs and a lot of zones" claim, that's really not as true as you seem to want it to be. In many MMOs you might use as an example, most of them are not simply railroading the quest chain, but you are lead through a very finite and controlled set of zones. The examples to the contrary in MMORPGs is quite rare, and even WoW doesn't make that good of a show for it as if you're skipping between quest hubs you are also typically jumping in quest level (not to mention you basically just migrated from green to brown scenery or vice versa to do the same stuff). Just because you can skip things to do something else does not mean it's a well supported feature or actually offering any variety.
What it properly boils down to is not questing, but rewarded gameplay through bonus experience and loot from any variety of systems or mechanics. It can be as hidden as simply scaling rewards against activities and players automatically in the background to incentivize changing it up, or to transparent "you will get this" as a bonus style.
Questing can be a grind. Grinding is subjective. If you had to do 1 million quest to reach max level that's a grind.
I think most have realized forced grinds have worn out their welcome. It was a relief from the worn out NPC grinding. Now its just as worn out because quest are not especially fun in MMORPG. They're progression control measures. You have a main quest, side quest and then progression control task or fillers. The filler is used to make sure we level and how fast we level. They're generally just not fun and after 10+ years its annoying.
The forced questing to progress in MMORPG has become old. Most of us don't need tutorial to play an end game(many of us don't play) if that's how you design your game. Not to mention the ease of the games you don't get a feel of how to use your class.
Making these games levelless action adventure types would make the games better overall. Cut or automate filler content making it optional. Focus on making the game fun because you're not worried about dragging it out(in turn shorting it in the future). You're not wasting space because without levels you can have a Skyrim type adventure.
MMORPG get a way with poor fun value because the meat of the game is viewed as gateway. The enjoyment and pride comes with making max level and getting the best gear. Not if your doing virtual work of gather 5 sticks for firewood is fun or not. Its why most of us rather not sub.
I do not like questing really since WoW came out......Between WoW, EQ2, and LoTRO I got to a point where I never wanted to do a quest again.....To me they are way overdone in modern MMOs are ruin many of them.
Like I said, I don't mind there being a chore leveling path, as long as there's other ways to get by, and still be competitive.
Well games can't afford to be boring to the majority of players just because you claim you don't mind the excessive repetition.
If quest weren't boring games wouldn't be shorting questing to level. They would extended it.
Obviously not boring to the point that they are all eliminated. And questing *is* extended whenever there is an expansion, and often when there is a content patch (the latest example is Marvel Heroes 2016).
Like I said, I don't mind there being a chore leveling path, as long as there's other ways to get by, and still be competitive.
Well games can't afford to be boring to the majority of players just because you claim you don't mind the excessive repetition.
If quest weren't boring games wouldn't be shorting questing to level. They would extended it.
Obviously not boring to the point that they are all eliminated. And questing *is* extended whenever there is an expansion, and often when there is a content patch (the latest example is Marvel Heroes 2016).
Its not being eliminated because there is a familiar aspect to it. Generally when its extending its there to push new barriers of progression and that's the only way they know how outside of random generation.
If quest weren't boring games wouldn't be shorting questing to level. They would extended it.
Incorrect.
The final tiers of progression in these games involves group-centric activities. This means an excessively long quest progression is a bad idea, because they need to keep players together. If you created a 2000+ hour quest progression, then most of your players are going to be working on getting through that, and only a tiny handful will be at the very end looking for group members and failing to find them in a timely fashion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If quest weren't boring games wouldn't be shorting questing to level. They would extended it.
Incorrect.
The final tiers of progression in these games involves group-centric activities. This means an excessively long quest progression is a bad idea, because they need to keep players together. If you created a 2000+ hour quest progression, then most of your players are going to be working on getting through that, and only a tiny handful will be at the very end looking for group members and failing to find them in a timely fashion.
So basically you're admitting that questing is just going through the motions to get to end game? If questing was truly enjoyable then players would just ask for more group questing. Instead they want shorter quest times and more solo to obviously bypass the "grind."
So basically you're admitting that questing is just going through the motions to get to end game? If questing was truly enjoyable then players would just ask for more group questing. Instead they want shorter quest times and more solo to obviously bypass the "grind."
Questing is desirable gameplay. Anyone arguing against that is completely and utterly blind to what players have chosen to play over the last decade or more of MMORPGs. Players chose questing.
But if you want your game to have group-centric content near the end, you have to have lots of players in that group-centric section of progression.
Group quests exist. Did a group quest just today to run a bunch of Mythic dungeons in WOW.
Solo quests also exist. Games have solo progression up through endgame and a moderate amount of solo quests at endgame too (I also did a few solo quests today.) Saying they 'bypass' the grind is a bit odd, but as I've pointed out repeatedly the point of questing is that it's much less grindy than grind-centric games.
So really nothing you're saying matches the reality of how players are choosing to enjoy MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Players didn't choose questing, they chose incentive through rewards. Quests are simply a common format for tossing that into, but is not necessary in the least.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Like I said, I don't mind there being a chore leveling path, as long as there's other ways to get by, and still be competitive.
Well games can't afford to be boring to the majority of players just because you claim you don't mind the excessive repetition.
If quest weren't boring games wouldn't be shorting questing to level. They would extended it.
Obviously not boring to the point that they are all eliminated. And questing *is* extended whenever there is an expansion, and often when there is a content patch (the latest example is Marvel Heroes 2016).
Its not being eliminated because there is a familiar aspect to it. Generally when its extending its there to push new barriers of progression and that's the only way they know how outside of random generation.
So it is being extended, which invalidates what you said.
Comments
I think most have realized forced grinds have worn out their welcome. It was a relief from the worn out NPC grinding. Now its just as worn out because quest are not especially fun in MMORPG. They're progression control measures. You have a main quest, side quest and then progression control task or fillers. The filler is used to make sure we level and how fast we level. They're generally just not fun and after 10+ years its annoying.
The forced questing to progress in MMORPG has become old. Most of us don't need tutorial to play an end game(many of us don't play) if that's how you design your game. Not to mention the ease of the games you don't get a feel of how to use your class.
Making these games levelless action adventure types would make the games better overall. Cut or automate filler content making it optional. Focus on making the game fun because you're not worried about dragging it out(in turn shorting it in the future). You're not wasting space because without levels you can have a Skyrim type adventure.
MMORPG get a way with poor fun value because the meat of the game is viewed as gateway. The enjoyment and pride comes with making max level and getting the best gear. Not if your doing virtual work of gather 5 sticks for firewood is fun or not. Its why most of us rather not sub.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The final tiers of progression in these games involves group-centric activities. This means an excessively long quest progression is a bad idea, because they need to keep players together. If you created a 2000+ hour quest progression, then most of your players are going to be working on getting through that, and only a tiny handful will be at the very end looking for group members and failing to find them in a timely fashion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
But if you want your game to have group-centric content near the end, you have to have lots of players in that group-centric section of progression.
Group quests exist. Did a group quest just today to run a bunch of Mythic dungeons in WOW.
Solo quests also exist. Games have solo progression up through endgame and a moderate amount of solo quests at endgame too (I also did a few solo quests today.) Saying they 'bypass' the grind is a bit odd, but as I've pointed out repeatedly the point of questing is that it's much less grindy than grind-centric games.
So really nothing you're saying matches the reality of how players are choosing to enjoy MMORPGs.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
que fireworks and celebration music...
Players didn't choose questing, they chose incentive through rewards. Quests are simply a common format for tossing that into, but is not necessary in the least.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin