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Bad news coming from Smedleys periscope about EQNext's AI

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  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086
    https://www.periscope.tv/w/1YqxozPqQRvJv

    skip to 2:20 if you don't mind watching this short video from the start. He mention's EQNext's AI work done by Dave Mark never got to see the light of day. Of course we dont know what the work was but Smed said it was "amazing". Question is why would they quit something Smed said was amazing? Did this game get "trolled" to death and investors didn't want to risk the market infested with WoW fanboys bent on spreading ill word to any game that competes with its "muh subscription numbers". Im pretty pissed off. Seriously...

    Why would someone trying to get our money say something never seen before is amazing?

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Dave worked with them on EQN for a bit and appears to have been let go. Went on to work for GW2 and his "AI" can be seen in the HoT expansion....don't know anyone taking notice of it being amazing.

    But Smed said his work is amazing so it must be, just ignore anything else and give them money.

    What are these "investors" you speak of. Dave was let go when Sony owned the company and SOE seemed to have a lot of room, hence so many projects wasting away because no one wanted to shake things up.

    Dave was a sub-contractor while Storybricks was the main AI 3rd party.

    Stop blaming WoW fans or whatever, no one to point the finger at besides the folks in charge of SOE and EQN itself. They over hyped and over imagined what could happen and gamers aren't completely clueless.

    The "people" who put the whole genre in motion are making games. Look at Crowfall, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, and now Hero's Song. These are the minds behind EQ, UO, SWG, DAoC, etc. Not SOE/DBG.
  • mmorpgoldtimermmorpgoldtimer Member CommonPosts: 8

    eq next = trollollollolloll

    they been at eq next for nearly a decade get over it. eq next is not happening.

  • 2kroyalrumble2kroyalrumble Member CommonPosts: 4
    What are these "investors" you speak of. Dave was let go when Sony owned the company and SOE seemed to have a lot of room, hence so many projects wasting away because no one wanted to shake things up.
     
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 622
    Aelious said:
    https://www.periscope.tv/w/1YqxozPqQRvJv

    skip to 2:20 if you don't mind watching this short video from the start. He mention's EQNext's AI work done by Dave Mark never got to see the light of day. Of course we dont know what the work was but Smed said it was "amazing". Question is why would they quit something Smed said was amazing? Did this game get "trolled" to death and investors didn't want to risk the market infested with WoW fanboys bent on spreading ill word to any game that competes with its "muh subscription numbers". Im pretty pissed off. Seriously...


    This has been known for some time. Dave Mark's work was the initial AI "framework" for Next before Storybricks took it and tried to run with it, later to be unable get their systems to work entirely either. Keep in mind this AI handover was about a year before the announcement of the CN buyout if I'm not mistaken. Who knows what happened behind closed doors but I doubt Smed had his hands tied when it was decided that Mark's services were no longer required after his contract was over. Maybe they thought they had enough groundwork from DM to let the SB guys build off of it and complete it? Either way it didn't work from Smed's own statements which is why the DGC crew decided to take the AI work for Next "in house."


    Who knows now? There is radio silence which really means nothing.

    Just got back from a raid. EQNext's framework was decided at inception. Meaning Jbutlers vision which he created started at 2001. SB was introduced to make that vision work. Well, i didnt know Dave Mark was the original guy i thought he was a SB. That's better news but still, Smed knew the project and seemingly his work was the best of the two. His words...So i don't know who to be mad at. But why would they quit while they were ahead? That's the question...
    because they ran out of money, or their were technical flaws that would cost more then either sony or CN were willing to spend to fix, or maybe there was a flaw they just couldn't over come.

     it could be any number of things that halted the AI development. these type of things happen all the time in software development and remember mmo development is an income loss until release. neither SoE or DGC have/had unlimited resources...so cost cutting measures were taken.

    also assigning blame to groups of people out of ignorance because your angry is wrong. 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Allein said:
    https://www.periscope.tv/w/1YqxozPqQRvJv

    skip to 2:20 if you don't mind watching this short video from the start. He mention's EQNext's AI work done by Dave Mark never got to see the light of day. Of course we dont know what the work was but Smed said it was "amazing". Question is why would they quit something Smed said was amazing? Did this game get "trolled" to death and investors didn't want to risk the market infested with WoW fanboys bent on spreading ill word to any game that competes with its "muh subscription numbers". Im pretty pissed off. Seriously...

    Why would someone trying to get our money say something never seen before is amazing?

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Dave worked with them on EQN for a bit and appears to have been let go. Went on to work for GW2 and his "AI" can be seen in the HoT expansion....don't know anyone taking notice of it being amazing.

    But Smed said his work is amazing so it must be, just ignore anything else and give them money.

    What are these "investors" you speak of. Dave was let go when Sony owned the company and SOE seemed to have a lot of room, hence so many projects wasting away because no one wanted to shake things up.

    Dave was a sub-contractor while Storybricks was the main AI 3rd party.

    Stop blaming WoW fans or whatever, no one to point the finger at besides the folks in charge of SOE and EQN itself. They over hyped and over imagined what could happen and gamers aren't completely clueless.

    The "people" who put the whole genre in motion are making games. Look at Crowfall, Pantheon, Camelot Unchained, and now Hero's Song. These are the minds behind EQ, UO, SWG, DAoC, etc. Not SOE/DBG.
    You must think everything is a scam. Ok, besides that. This wouldn't be a question if the genre wasnt in such a state it is in. 

    Noone wants to make a game thats bound to be a failure. Everyone has the best intent of making a game that is a) a classic b) makes money. THey, EQNext, is simply not making a game they are capable of making because of consumer confidence of the brand (Yes that is a factor) and it all spurned from the toxicity of the culture. Yes, people can make negative impacts on a game so i am blaming WoW fans because look at Wildstar...It took me a long time to try that game and for what? 20 dollars? (im just saying that because i know it went free to play). I enjoyed Landmark until people made negative comments like we were being suckered into it.   There is no middle ground in that game...Its either a failure or you proved some 30 year old basement dweller wrong.  Thats what i hate.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325

    What are these "investors" you speak of. Dave was let go when Sony owned the company and SOE seemed to have a lot of room, hence so many projects wasting away because no one wanted to shake things up.
     
    Sony is an investor.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    I know people are less inclined to spend money but if you enjoyed it for 1 dollar every 2 hours then your investment was well worth it (according to Cohh Carnage). If we could shift gaming populations to spread out instead of one massive one and everyone else is doomed then we could change the entire dynamics of the industry. Hell, i think VR systems connected to your pc would be out. Remember VirtualBoy from nintendo? They could easily make a port or a "mobile" device and we could have virtual reality i know it cause Virtual Boy came out in 1996. Money makes the world go round but lets imagine we didnt have money as a factor in developement then anything is possible...No we chose monopolies. Such a waste. Well, i got my fill from EQ just now thats my main game im sticking to it.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    edited January 2016
    Pemmin said:
    Aelious said:
    https://www.periscope.tv/w/1YqxozPqQRvJv

    skip to 2:20 if you don't mind watching this short video from the start. He mention's EQNext's AI work done by Dave Mark never got to see the light of day. Of course we dont know what the work was but Smed said it was "amazing". Question is why would they quit something Smed said was amazing? Did this game get "trolled" to death and investors didn't want to risk the market infested with WoW fanboys bent on spreading ill word to any game that competes with its "muh subscription numbers". Im pretty pissed off. Seriously...


    This has been known for some time. Dave Mark's work was the initial AI "framework" for Next before Storybricks took it and tried to run with it, later to be unable get their systems to work entirely either. Keep in mind this AI handover was about a year before the announcement of the CN buyout if I'm not mistaken. Who knows what happened behind closed doors but I doubt Smed had his hands tied when it was decided that Mark's services were no longer required after his contract was over. Maybe they thought they had enough groundwork from DM to let the SB guys build off of it and complete it? Either way it didn't work from Smed's own statements which is why the DGC crew decided to take the AI work for Next "in house."


    Who knows now? There is radio silence which really means nothing.

    Just got back from a raid. EQNext's framework was decided at inception. Meaning Jbutlers vision which he created started at 2001. SB was introduced to make that vision work. Well, i didnt know Dave Mark was the original guy i thought he was a SB. That's better news but still, Smed knew the project and seemingly his work was the best of the two. His words...So i don't know who to be mad at. But why would they quit while they were ahead? That's the question...
    because they ran out of money, or their were technical flaws that would cost more then either sony or CN were willing to spend to fix, or maybe there was a flaw they just couldn't over come.

     it could be any number of things that halted the AI development. these type of things happen all the time in software development and remember mmo development is an income loss until release. neither SoE or DGC have/had unlimited resources...so cost cutting measures were taken.

    also assigning blame to groups of people out of ignorance because your angry is wrong. 
    Smedley congratulated him on it but because the brand isn't strong enough to generate the money needed to make a positive return it got scrapped due to costs.

    Why don't we point the fingers at the people who intently started the negative coverage of anything SOE cause of muh SWG or muh subscription numbers?? They killed a company. I hurt a feeling or two.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,862
    Op welcome back to reality....kinda.


    You finally realized EQN was never going to come out or be released anything close to what they promised.


    Unfortunately you aren't quite back to reality yet as you seem to think WOW did this when really it was the piss poor management of SOE/DBG that did it
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    I mean. Game rivalries do exist. So we got over that part but the damage was done already. It makes me hate WoW but i can't do anything about it because they sucker in so many people. Seriously i got over that game when i was 2. Its just too simple for me. Everquest is a work of art. A genius masterpiece of intricate parts. Games like those have conclusions. they lead you through logical steps. That game leads holds your hand only on how getting your gears in your head to start working. Its very mechanical and very satisfying part of work. And play obviously.  Everquest is simply sophisticated too much for a lot of people. For everyone else theres WoW. Theres so many thinigs i want to say but i refuse it to be in post mortem. This AI issue is likely the blame. I hoped they wouldn't change what they first set out because i was blown away by the possibilities of an implemation like these. Mobs that think for themselves and not a small world after all marionette. This literally could have changed the game i mean no more quest hubs. But the concesus was people still wanted quest hubs because they were "enjoying" themselves already and wrote this off as a risk. Well, the devs listened and now this work of modern art AI system is to be no more...They tried to bring something to the game and people thought it wouldnt work. Becuase of what? What stake is in this? You always have to be right??...Foolishness. 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    I am getting way off topic here but its because noone has got an answer to Why would they quit while they were ahead?
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086
    THey, EQNext, is simply not making a game they are capable of making because of consumer confidence of the brand (Yes that is a factor) and it all spurned from the toxicity of the culture. Yes, people can make negative impacts on a game so i am blaming WoW fans because look at Wildstar...It took me a long time to try that game and for what? 20 dollars? (im just saying that because i know it went free to play). I enjoyed Landmark until people made negative comments like we were being suckered into it.   There is no middle ground in that game...Its either a failure or you proved some 30 year old basement dweller wrong.  Thats what i hate.
    You seem very easily swayed by popular mindset or not even popular, just whatever you put value to.

    Random internet posters are just that, make up your own mind.

    SOE/EQN received a lot of flack after they decided to go into hiding after over hyping what sounded like a good design.

    Can't wave a steak in front of dog and then take it away. Bound to get bit.

    No clue what you are trying to say about WoW & Wildstar. People wanted "hardcore raiding" and got it with WS but it was too hard so they quit. 


  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    WoW can release garrisons for fucks sakes and it makes them 400 million. We can't have a fancy AI system...:Rage:
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086

    Sony is an investor.
    Sony was the owner which obviously invests in their products.

    Highly doubt that anyone from Sony was making any critical decisions pertaining to EQN.

    SOE =/= Sony.

    SOE had people (management) in charge making calls.

    Considering EQN 2013 was at least the 3rd swing at bat, clearly someone in charge had already scrapped things previously and wasn't afraid to remove people from the team or make decisions if they thought it would help.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    No im saying Sony likely funded EQNext to start.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086

    If we could shift gaming populations to spread out instead of one massive one and everyone else is doomed then we could change the entire dynamics of the industry.

    No we chose monopolies. Such a waste. Well, i got my fill from EQ just now thats my main game im sticking to it.
    Have you paid any attention to the mmo genre for the last couple years?

    Companies are doing just that. Majority of upcoming games are niche aimed and particular communities.

    Feel free to include yourself in the "we" group, not all of us continue to flock to the next WoW-Killer or whatever.

    EQ was the one massive  game for a couple years, but since it got ran over it is fine? Makes no sense lol
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086

    Foolishness. 
    That's all I'm getting from you.

    But I can't stop feeding you!
  • giftedHorngiftedHorn Member UncommonPosts: 106
    AIs don't always work with the game. Like for a role playing game, you want mobs that are smart enough to put up a good fight, but too stupid to run and hide. Tactical, but not strategic intelligence. A concern with Storybricks is that they were working on strategic AI, and that could actually be game-breaking -- as it was when UO tried the same thing. Imagine a world where an NPC does not offer a quest because she's grumpy that day, or dark elves exterminate the dryads, or orcs roll around in big zerg packs ganking noobs.

    Anyway there could be several reasons why a particular piece of AI did not make it into a game. Dave Mark could have done terrific work, and yet EQN could be better off without it.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Aelious said:
    https://www.periscope.tv/w/1YqxozPqQRvJv

    skip to 2:20 if you don't mind watching this short video from the start. He mention's EQNext's AI work done by Dave Mark never got to see the light of day. Of course we dont know what the work was but Smed said it was "amazing". Question is why would they quit something Smed said was amazing? Did this game get "trolled" to death and investors didn't want to risk the market infested with WoW fanboys bent on spreading ill word to any game that competes with its "muh subscription numbers". Im pretty pissed off. Seriously...


    This has been known for some time. Dave Mark's work was the initial AI "framework" for Next before Storybricks took it and tried to run with it, later to be unable get their systems to work entirely either. Keep in mind this AI handover was about a year before the announcement of the CN buyout if I'm not mistaken. Who knows what happened behind closed doors but I doubt Smed had his hands tied when it was decided that Mark's services were no longer required after his contract was over. Maybe they thought they had enough groundwork from DM to let the SB guys build off of it and complete it? Either way it didn't work from Smed's own statements which is why the DGC crew decided to take the AI work for Next "in house."


    Who knows now? There is radio silence which really means nothing.

    Just got back from a raid. EQNext's framework was decided at inception. Meaning Jbutlers vision which he created started at 2001. SB was introduced to make that vision work. Well, i didnt know Dave Mark was the original guy i thought he was a SB. That's better news but still, Smed knew the project and seemingly his work was the best of the two. His words...So i don't know who to be mad at. But why would they quit while they were ahead? That's the question...


    I mentioned "AI framework", not the theoretical framework for EQN which did change after 2001 with the idea of using a voxel engine (2011? I forget). SB was not introduced until way later but could not get, according to Smed, the AI working as was desired by DGC so they took all the work that was dine to that point and are working on it internally.


    I'm not sure what you mean by "quit while they were ahead."

  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Allein said:

    If we could shift gaming populations to spread out instead of one massive one and everyone else is doomed then we could change the entire dynamics of the industry.

    No we chose monopolies. Such a waste. Well, i got my fill from EQ just now thats my main game im sticking to it.
    Have you paid any attention to the mmo genre for the last couple years?

    Companies are doing just that. Majority of upcoming games are niche aimed and particular communities.

    Feel free to include yourself in the "we" group, not all of us continue to flock to the next WoW-Killer or whatever.

    EQ was the one massive  game for a couple years, but since it got ran over it is fine? Makes no sense lol
    EQ was niche enough even when it was massively popular. We can have that now hopefully. Lets face it. Every game thats being watched in the AAA is only WoW people looking for something that might take them off of well, WoW. So we get the worst culture ive ever seen since i started in 1999. On both sides. WoW has a huge impact in fact it IS the impact. I only came to this only when EQNext was announced. Im watching everything of a bar room fight while chairs are flying across my head still thinking im outside looking in. Lots of fighting ive seen when this game was announced and reveal and we got reminded of subscription numbers and this and that and so forth. Now im talking in a AAA level. I think we fought back at one point WoW was being trolled and we are now at here. Well, i never forgot about that. A lot of people still remember but anyway i dont know why that stuck to my head. AAA rivalries from 2011-2015 existed until a resurgence of games came out right when WoW was getting stale but my question for everyone who followed this game is: So were just gonna forget about everything now?
  • IAmMMOIAmMMO Member UncommonPosts: 1,462
    They've missed the boat. The generation that played EQ and EQ2 have moved on, and the next generation of gamers are playing the Ark & Minecraft type genre of games. That's where its' going be at from now until 2020. Ark type games. Or Ark will grow into a monster. Look at Smeds latest project a game that can be played on smart phone tablet and Pc.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    AIs don't always work with the game. Like for a role playing game, you want mobs that are smart enough to put up a good fight, but too stupid to run and hide. Tactical, but not strategic intelligence. A concern with Storybricks is that they were working on strategic AI, and that could actually be game-breaking -- as it was when UO tried the same thing. Imagine a world where an NPC does not offer a quest because she's grumpy that day, or dark elves exterminate the dryads, or orcs roll around in big zerg packs ganking noobs.

    Anyway there could be several reasons why a particular piece of AI did not make it into a game. Dave Mark could have done terrific work, and yet EQN could be better off without it.

    Everything you described is something i wanted in an mmo. Even before i heard about it. This concept was introduced i think around 2011 when one team won the development contest while the other was fired and started to produce EQNext. JButler was on that team that won and DG joined around that same time. This was already in the works while Dave Mark was working his magic then got passed down or should i say over to SB. There is a possibly that Dave Mark outdid himself but the cost was too high and that SB would fill in better or other in house AI but it would greatly discourage me if it was anything as awesome as what DG pitched or better.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086
    EQ was niche enough even when it was massively popular. We can have that now hopefully. Lets face it. Every game thats being watched in the AAA is only WoW people looking for something that might take them off of well, WoW. So we get the worst culture ive ever seen since i started in 1999. On both sides. WoW has a huge impact in fact it IS the impact. I only came to this only when EQNext was announced. Im watching everything of a bar room fight while chairs are flying across my head still thinking im outside looking in. Lots of fighting ive seen when this game was announced and reveal and we got reminded of subscription numbers and this and that and so forth. Now im talking in a AAA level. I think we fought back at one point WoW was being trolled and we are now at here. Well, i never forgot about that. A lot of people still remember but anyway i dont know why that stuck to my head. AAA rivalries from 2011-2015 existed until a resurgence of games came out right when WoW was getting stale but my question for everyone who followed this game is: So were just gonna forget about everything now?
    You are really stuck on WoW.

    People that like/play WoW are playing it and don't seem to bother with anything else. Similar to folks still playing EQ after all these years.

    The people that hop from game to game are a different crowd.

    You say you don't want another massive game, but EQN was/is the only one even on the horizon...

    Not many AAA titles on the way, let alone PVE themeparks that former EQ/WoW fans would like if that is what they are looking for.

    Honestly you are all over the place and not sure if you've looked outside your little experience for a while.

    Lots of games to choose from now and many on the way.

    I've been playing Black Desert Online and it is pretty dang nice compared to what is out.

    This whole WoW vs EQ war or whatever you have going on in your head, is limited to the space between your ears.

    People on forums bicker and try to make themselves seem right, there is no "rivalry" between games. WoW and EQ aren't competing at the Olympics or Super Bowl.

    I have to ask you, are we going to forget about what? Please try to keep a clear train of thought. Walls of text aren't the best.

     
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,086
    Everything you described is something i wanted in an mmo. Even before i heard about it. This concept was introduced i think around 2011 when one team won the development contest while the other was fired and started to produce EQNext. JButler was on that team that won and DG joined around that same time. This was already in the works while Dave Mark was working his magic then got passed down or should i say over to SB. There is a possibly that Dave Mark outdid himself but the cost was too high and that SB would fill in better or other in house AI but it would greatly discourage me if it was anything as awesome as what DG pitched or better.
    Dave Mark was with EQN from April 2013 to Feb 2014.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Allein said:
    Everything you described is something i wanted in an mmo. Even before i heard about it. This concept was introduced i think around 2011 when one team won the development contest while the other was fired and started to produce EQNext. JButler was on that team that won and DG joined around that same time. This was already in the works while Dave Mark was working his magic then got passed down or should i say over to SB. There is a possibly that Dave Mark outdid himself but the cost was too high and that SB would fill in better or other in house AI but it would greatly discourage me if it was anything as awesome as what DG pitched or better.
    Dave Mark was with EQN from April 2013 to Feb 2014.
    Omg...why would they scrap it?

    This WoW thing which i ignored for the most part is only here because after this they are the first to blame for me. We have different experiences and mine was the backlash weve recieved when EQNext reveal and landmark in these very same forums..I dug too deep and made my own conclusions but its too late for that. Im not even looking for a WoW killer i just want an Everquest game. It sucks when they scrap a feature i would love in my mmo just because of reasons. If they release a game it won't be met with much expectations...
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