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gankers, loggers and smacktalkers - no flames - DISCUSS....
Copeland
Member Posts: 1,955
*edited and removed the alliance names i dont want this to be considered smacktalk or flamebait in any way *
Ok i'm not allowed to be a forum warrior on Eve-Online forums because the alliance i'm in frowns on that kind of thing. So for fear of this turning into flamebait on the EVE-O forums i'm going to kick up a discussion here. I'd like to touch on the subjects of gankers, loggers and smacktalkers. Keep in mind i am no carebear. I pvp everyday and work within a small yet strong alliance.
first up is gankers.
I don't mind the solo or small team of pirate gankers that reside in low security space. To me this is an element the game needs. The majority of real pirate gankers i run into dont smacktalk at all. As a matter of fact theres a small pirate corp called Sniggerdly which i have the upmost respect for. The problems i see come from major alliances. The alliances i'm mainly referring to (just out of my own experiences not to flame them) are [name removed] and [name removed]. They'll come into our territory with a group of 3-6 ships and go around ganking miners. Anytime they're faced with a real fight they usually run to a safespot and log out. Maybe i just expect to much from these guys but i always see them ripping people in forums for doing exactly that. Whats funny though is when they attack the pirate corps and think they're attacking your allies. Then it never fails while they sit in their safespot they smacktalk.
Smacktalk.
Smacktalk is the art of making yourself look as dumb as possible while thinking you're just the coolest thing since chocolate chip ice cream. My main experiences again deal with [name removed] and as of late [name removed]. I had to sit through numerous hours of [name removed] sitting in safespots spouting racial slurs. Now maybe the people they were spouting them too deserved the hatred but not based on those grounds. If people piss you off in game shouldnt you take it out within the concept of the game? Whats funny is i think these sad people believe what they're saying. They'll referance events and talk about things that never happened. Take for instance [name removed]. Today i was told [name removed] was killing the alliance i'm in. They have 200+ bs kills to our 30 bs kills. They then referrance their killboard. Everyone in EVE knows that [name removed] killboard is nothing but propaganda. Well i kinda called them out on it and replied to them "we've massacred [name removed] in every battle for 3 months. We don't bother with your gankers because when confronted with real fighters they just log".. their response.."we dont log" 30 seconds later they logged LOL. Let me add that i've seen smacktalkers on my side too but within my corp and alliance they are quickly told to stfu. I also know that there are alliances that are our allies that smacktalk but i feel the same about them smacktalking as i do anyone.
Loggers.
Ok this is what really gets to me. CCP will allow almost anything as long as its done within game mechanics. The problem is logging out in space is part of the mechanics. I'd prefer if CCP made it to where you could only log off in a station that way when gankers come into your space they wont just be able to log out and get away from a fight. Seriously if you have the grapes to come into someones territory and start ganking unaffiliated miners and carebears at least have the grapes to fight your way to your death when confronted with the answer from the local alliance. To me this is just as bad as logging off in actual combat. It's only a ship afterall if you cant afford to lose it you shouldnt be flying it in enemy territory.
So heres a short summary of my last few months of EVE.
First [name removed] invades. Everytime they're confronted they run back to empire. Smacktalking and claiming victory although they ran when we tried to engage them. Eventually [name removed] comes to help them out. We engage [name removed] and [name removed] and obliterate their fleets. I think of the 4 engagements they won 1. Then they leave sighting "bad lag" and "they're bored". Last year they absolutely raped us but i guess thats the past. So anyway [name removed] leaves some gankers behind who mainly sit in safespots ganking unaffiliated haulers and smacktalking and logging. Now [name removed] and [name removed] have switched and its [name removed] doing it. The funny thing is if you read the forums they're supposedly against smacktalk. Even though the [name removed] corps actually encourage smacktalk lol i know this because of spies naturally.
Anyway none of this is meant as a slap to any alliance. I am not smacktalking nor lying about anything i've said. I merely want to start a civil conversation about why people feel it necessary to act this way. None of it strengthens their position or prestige and it just makes them look so bad. I enjoy a good clean fight to the death. I never complain when i get killed and i never smacktalk to incite aggression. I do have a tendancy to rebut smacktalk with facts which only seems to irritate the smacktalkers more lol.
Now i know people here play EVE and you can substitue [name removed] or [name removed] with 90% of the major alliances out there and its most likely true. How is it this stuff isnt policed by alliances? Sometimes i think that most fleet commanders are 15 year olds.. Theres no real victory in EVE. You cant kill an alliance you just hope it breaks under the pressure. Even if it does another alliance just pops up in its place. So i guess one thing to discuss is - do you think if you win while using these tactics its something to be proud of? I mean you cant really go posting on the forums that you won via ganking, logging and smacktalking. You wont get any respect for it and if you're not fighting for respect exactly what are you fighting for? Ultimately its all just pixels so respect for how you conduct yourself is the only tangible trophy you can hope to win. Not only that, i doubt you would ever beat an alliance with these tactics.
Anyway share your thoughts. Please no flaming this isnt meant to be flamebait but an actual in depth discussion on these types of tactics.
Comments
The act of hiding in a station and smack talking is simple cowardice. You clearly aren't that great of a fighter if you have to hide in an area that is impossible to remove you from.
However, the greatest pvpers I've ever fought in EVE were also very mature. Sometimes a random group flew by and blasted miners with superior fire-power, but ran or died horribly as soon as a real challenge appeared. The really scary ones were the wolf-packs who worked together efficiently, complementing each other's strengths. I remember an early experience fighting pirates in a frigate. The controling corporation decided to bring in a Battleship, which was stunning because I'd never seen one before. The pirates were a group of frigates disrupting the corps mining operations. I warped in with a few frigates to engage them, then the battleship came behind us. The pirates turned and fought! I thought they were insane, until I was floating in a pod watching in disbelief as they engaged the Battleship, and destroyed it! Some of them fell, but the bred a new respect for pirates in me.
Also amusing are the roleplayers. Especially amusing was an Amarr who bolted around a sector preaching over the chat channel. No one could catch up to him because he was so slippery, but the whole affair was hillarious and very well done RPing. Another favorite are RP pirates who charge tolls at certain gates. Half of the times I encountered them, I paid their toll just because their acts were so believable.
Many of the elements you've pointed out pale in comparison to the people who do it well. Let a smack talker get in a shouting match with an Amarr fanatic. Let the low-skill gankers and loggers take on the real pirates. There are bigger fish in the sea than these types, and they suffer terribly by the comparison. To a smack talker who runs and hides, they will never be the best. Isn't that punishment enough :P
I agree, especially on the logging thing. At least put in something like other mmorpg's where it takes a certain number of seconds to log out.
Too bad you didn't include names in your post - it sucked the joy out of reading it.
I'm sure racial abuse can get accounts banned, why didn't you sent a copy of the log to ccp? Plus you can block people - why not block rather than listen to drivel?
Eve mirrors real life and so you've now discovered that heaps of people are full of it, what did you expect? Most players will go for the easy kill, will be in denial about their and their friends shortcomings, I'm surprised you expected better.
Actually alot of people reported it and we got a warning for mass reporting LOL. The most that happens is they get muzzled and cant talk in local for a bit or get a temporary suspension. Really this is something i'd like to see the big alliances police more. This was a pretty major alliance that it took place with and there really was no excuse. I can tell you if he was in our alliance he would have been dropped and podded asap. If they had done that we wouldnt have bothered reporting him and i'm sure an even louder message would have been sent to the other members of the alliance. By allowing such actions to take place the alliance is pretty much condoning the act.
Make a difference!
The patch for Cold War will put in a 30 minute combat log off timer but that wont solve the gankers safespotting and logging issue. I really think that you should only be able to log off in stations. Seriously it's just not justifiable to let people log off in space. It makes no sense.. what is it extra special stealth mode and the ship blips off the scanner? lol it breaks the immersion and i feel its an exploit. I know they dont want people losing ships to disconnects but you know what i'll live with losing a ship or two to that if it will solve logoffs.
Make a difference!
I agree with gankers and loggers, but what I don't understand is why bother if someone is "smacktalking"? If you tell them to stfu, they will just get new fuel to smacktalk even more. Just ignore them, and accept the fact that some people are like that (most are probably underage, physically or mentally..). I couldn't care less if some idiot says something rude to me on internet. I'm used to it, and not going to waste my time on them. I recommend this to everyone else too, makes life easier and pisses them of when they don't get any reaction from their "audience"
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MMORPG genre=trend=lots of subscriptions/bad games
About gankers in 0.0. Well, you need to take a look from both sides. First of all, your miners are to be blamed for getting ganked. Not like they didn't see a local chat fill up with the enemies or there was no warning in the alliance chat about enemies in your claimed territory. I am sure your miners also have safe spots they could have used. Ganked while transporting goods to empire? May I suggest to use a scout in covert ops frig and ask in alliance chat if anybody knows how is the way to empire?
Loging off in combat to save your ship is lame, I agree. What you are talking about is different. What's a real fight you are talking about? Is it when you bring in 15 BS or more plus support frigs to deal with their 3-6 ships and then you camp gates so they can't leave the system? At this time, they are safe spotted so you bring in ships with probe launchers. They log. Now they are cowards because they knew they wouldn't live more then 10-15 seconds after they warp in to you. Why do they have to fight to their death? Is there some rule that says: "I went into the enemy territory, ganked their haller and now I must loose my ship to their fleet because otherwise it will not be fair."
Well thats not really what i'm wanting to discuss. Ganking is part of the game and its good to keep people on their toes. My point is ganking and logging when confronted with the response. Logging out to avoid a fight is just as bad as logging out to save your ship. It's the same thing in my book.
Maybe we should form an EVE Ethics group and get all the major alliances to sign on to it
Kinda like the geneva convention.
Make a difference!
Yes. Precisely. If you go to enemy territory in a small group and dont expect a response you're a fool. If you use logging off to save your ship from the imminent destruction the alliances response is going to bring you then you might as well be logging off in combat. If your ship means more to you than honor you shouldn't be flying that ship.
Example. 3-6 marines go into Iran and start shooting people. They fully expect the Iranian military to respond. Can they log out and avoid the fight? Nope. They have to fight their way out.
I don't see why you should be able to log out to avoid combat if you put yourself in a position to fully expect it. Hopefully if enough people feel the same we can get ccp to change the mechanics to only allow logging off in stations.
Yes if you log to avoid the response you are a coward. Don't fool yourself. You know it when you're logging and i'm telling you now. YOU ARE! Your not some magical invisible ninja that can show up out of nowhere gank a miner then go invisible again. Ultimately its not fair to the alliance your attacking and its pure cowardace.
Make a difference!
I never said being suicidal equals honor. Please stay within the realms of the discussion. Yes they can warp from safe spot to safe spot and thats what they should do. If the alliance gets bored and leaves then so be it. If the gankers want to get our alive and the alliance doesnt leave then they'll have to fight.
Make a difference!
Thats fine if gankers want to wait until back up arrives while jumping from safe spot to safe spot this is how it should be. At no point and time can the marines just disappear from the world and be invulnerable to reprisal. Yes they do plan ways out but if those ways out are all block they have to fight or give up.
Make a difference!
Now this is purely a flamers attitude. Ofcourse you can use a cloak and suffer the locking penalty. Yes guerilla's use hit and run tactics not hit and disappear from the world tactics. Surely you can see a difference in evasion and disappearing from the world.
Make a difference!
OK you do understand that if you work within alliances there are player owned structures and soon player built stations that can and do change the station to system ratio. You shouldn't over extend yourself by flying so deep into space if you cant demonstrate control over that space. Currently you demonstrate control by holding the station. This is an accepted fact by EVE alliances. Persoanlly i hunt about 50 jumps from empire and i hunt about 10 jumps from our station.
This not an overly complicated solution. How are people going to come camp your alliance station without getting knocked upside their heads? 0.0 is an alliance game not a solo run out and kill npc game. If your running through 0.0 without an alliance and your doing it in a strong alliances space you are most likely flying dead anyway. IMHO this would make things difficult for those not in alliances but then those not in alliances shouldnt be flying where they shouldnt be in the first place.
Make a difference!
Instead of making 4 posts, going to put it all in one.
1. You said: "If you use logging off to save your ship from the imminent destruction the alliances response is going to bring you then you might as well be logging off in combat. If your ship means more to you than honor you shouldn't be flying that ship."
If I knew I would not stand a chance at the guns of your alliance ships and still jumped to your ships, what would you call that? You know in advance you are not going to live by doing this action. You are doing a suicide jump into enemy ships. Then you talk about honor in loosing the ship (the last sentence in what I quoted), so I said suiciding doesn't equal honor. Your words, just rephrased.
2. You said: "Thats fine if gankers want to wait until back up arrives while jumping from safe spot to safe spot this is how it should be. At no point and time can the marines just disappear from the world and be invulnerable to reprisal. Yes they do plan ways out but if those ways out are all block they have to fight or give up."
A helicopter picking up marines from the hot spot is not a reinforcement. It's a mean to escape the area alive. If marines gave coordinates for an air strike then it would be a reinforcement or if a helicopter brought more troops to fight.
3. You said: "Now this is purely a flamers attitude. Ofcourse you can use a cloak and suffer the locking penalty. Yes guerilla's use hit and run tactics not hit and disappear from the world tactics. Surely you can see a difference in evasion and disappearing from the world."
You left them no other option as to log or waste time by jumping from safe spot to safe spot. Again, I couldn't care less for some poor miner who lost his ship due to not being careful and you trying to get a revenge. All I care is about my men flying with me and their well being. I am not gonna tell them to jump under your guns so they could die. With your attitude, somebody who ganks a hauler should just hit self-destruct on the ship.
4. Soon doesn't mean now.
Also, if your alliance only got NPC stations in the space, how do you hold a control over that? Not all stations in 0.0 there can be player controlled.
What does flying in a space has to do with controlling the space?
You said: "If your running through 0.0 without an alliance and your doing it in a strong alliances space you are most likely flying dead anyway."
Not a true statement. There are a lot of pirate corps who live in an alliance space and transpassers. Alliances can't control their space 23/7 unless they dont sleep or got both strong euro and american fighter bases.
i'm drunk now so ...
yeah if you go in with a gank squad from the start its a suicide mission. When i raid with my alliance we always come back as clones.
logging off to avoid death is wrong. say what you want but logging off is wrong. If you want to protect your men dont send them in to a position where they'll need to log off to survive.
A helicopter can be shot down. Logging off cant be destroyed..
*edit* oh i just remembered one occasion where our fleet commander told us to log. Our safespot had been busted and he ordered the fleet to log. He profusely apologized the next day and was terribly embarrassed that he ever asked us to do it. Every other time we fight and die. We also have a great deal of respect for the way we go down. Theres more to the game than not having a ship destroyed. It's how you conduct yourself when confronted with a battle. Anyone can log. It takes a strong person to fight when you know your dead.
If your alliance only has npc stations then your alliance has no claim over said territory. Thats just a simple fact in EVE. Territory is claimed by control over conquerable stations. The next expansion reinforces that position by allowing those who control conquerable stations to add npc police and sentry guns.
Make a difference!
Well, since I am part of one of the alliances that started alot of this, I figured I mine as well add my two cents, hehe.
I've been reading through all the posts made and I believe everyone presented very strong arguments but, it all comes down to one person wanting an idealistically perfect game compared to a person who sees the game as, well ... a game. Yeah, if EVE were perfect you wouldn't be able to do anything OOC and it would reflect real life perfectly, then again, I don't think many people would keep playing if it were that way.
Logging, although it may be sleazy and annoying since it does not actualy rely on game mechanics is commenly used as a tactic. Many times I've gone into combat with my corp mates and seen the address book light up as a 10 vs 10 battle suddenly turned into a 10 vs 30 because people are connected to TS and just wait for us to take the bait. What I find funny is how after pretty much "exploiting" the login system in EVE, they then proceed to blast on public forums because we logged off when we saw this happen. Hey, if you do it, were not gonna think twice about doing the same thing. I'm sorry, I'm an optimistic fighter at times but, 3 to 1 odds dosen't work when everyone is flying big ships.
As for the ganking of people in "protected" alliance space. Well, again, that is part of the game and it does exactly what it is meant to. It strikes the target and angers them greatly. Frigate gank fleets are meant as guerilla warfare and work wonders. Yes, they're annoying since they are hard to catch and will generally not except to participate in even combat but, that's not their perpose so don't expect them to.
Although I would like to see a timer set for logging (actualy make scanner probes useful), completely eliminating a person's ability to log off is way too jurastic.
The final note, that of "honor" , I'm sorry but, give me a break. The entire situation with the "alliances of the south" began because someone up north thought it would be of best interest to "not" go and help their "allies" in a time of need. When all the dust cleared and we realised that our so called "allies" never even sent a single ship to our aid, it is natural that we wanted to repay them the favor and make them see what we had to deal with.
P.S. Major hostilities lasted 2 "weeks" in your space, they lasted for over 2 "months" in the south. Yeah sure, there are still pilots that go in a take cheap ganks when they can find them but hey, every single 0.0 alliance has to deal with that whether it comes from pirates, solo players, other alliances or all of the above who ally themselves against a common ennemy. Shit happens, gotta learn how to deal with it.
Dakilla[666] ~ The Realm ~ Level 1000 enchanter (retired)
Maranthoric ~ La 4ieme Prophetie ~ Level 160 (5x) HE/Feu (de retour)
Leonthoric[DDC] ~ EVE online ~ <Fire The "Laser"> (retired)
hmm i wonder if thats the same alliance we just distanced ourselves from up north :P..
Yeah major hostilities only lasted 2 weeks or so in the last so called invasion mainly because of our ability to decimate the enemy. While our operations in the south got cut short after only 2 days because some alliance up north decided they'd rather mine veldspar than protect its allies assets. I posted the vid of our 2 days down south so you can see we were giving them a good fight we just couldn't allow our territory to get raped while we were off having fun.
I realize that honor in a pvp game seems like a pipe dream. It probably is but there should be a way that the majority of alliances can sign onto rules of conduct concerning engagements. I know theres still going to be pirates running around using exploit tactics to gank a few but after NWO comes out that should go away or at least be cut down to a point where its pretty much not an issue. I dont know if NWO will help with major alliances doing it because they can come in with a force and just leave assassins behind.
As far as allies turning their backs on each other thats part of the dynamic i like in the game. There are tried and true allies that you know you can count on and theres those that have their own interests at heart. Sometimes their interests interfere with their obligations and people get let down. We're pretty close to one alliance and we often work together and its funny listening to our opponents smack and complain saying we're "their lapdogs" when really the fact is they're just jealous that 2 alliances can work so closely together and put up such a force. Personally i'd like to add Fix to that list because i really hear great things about the way they conduct themselves and their skill in combat. I shutter at the thought of hostilities with those guys.
I dunno what corp or alliance your in Dakilla but i'm curious and i recognize your name. so clue me in if ya will. I'll tell ya straight up i'm probably a noob compared to you. I started last October and only recently got involved in pvp. Needless to say i'm hooked and being in a militant alliance such as IRON i'm already pretty well seasoned hehe.
As far as frig fleet ganking goes its probably the most fun i have in the game. I can also tell you that when you see an IRON frig fleet if you approach us with anything close to equal forces we will definately engage. If we see stronger forces we go look for easier targets. YOU WILL NEVER SEE US LOG OUT TO AVOID THE ENEMY! Theres alot of pride in my corp and my alliance which i think is the main reason i enjoy running around with them so much.
I don't really want to get into what specific alliances do thats why i edited my initial post. But i do want to pose this question - Do you think it would be possible to get all or the majority of 0.0 alliances to sign on to a pact that defines what acceptable conduct is in a time of war? It seems to me that we all want the game to be fun and i cant see people having fun while they're logged out hiding from the enemy lol. Just seems to me theres gotta be a community involved solution to these issues even if it wont solve all the problems we should be able to put a dent in it.
Make a difference!
Well, as my sig explains, I am a member of DDC which is a co-founder of the Ascendant Frontier [ASCN]. Never said you guys never defended yourselves, just said that the guys we did send up North were merely sent to stir up crap to get under your skin. I think that major fleet sent into our space did send quite a statement in fact, even though we did already pull out of the area when it was sent, it let us know that you will not be taking lightly, which is always good to know. Fighting outnumbered as well caught alot of people off guard (probably the reason why it suceeded so well).
As for alliances signing a pact or declaration to make combat etiquette regulations, I sincerely doubt it. Like they say, all fair in love and war. And alot of us love to fight so, I don't think that would end up working very well. On top of it, even if people did "sign" or "agree" with such a thing, people never end up respecting them. We have so many corporations listed as +5's in our space that have fired on us in the past month or so that it is not funny. On the flip side, the fact that alot of ex-Xetic corporations are now actualy fighting us in their old space is halarious. Only takes another alliance to boot them out and 3 months to re-organize themselves to grow some cajones and actualy fight for what they lay claim to lol.
My character is actualy really close to the same age as yours, as I starded in October 2004 myself. I have been pvp'ing pretty constantly since December and am getting to be quite experienced (even though I lose the odd assault frigate to stupidity lol). In all the time I do spend fighting I find, winning a battle means almost nothing as compared to standing up to a bigger force. When DDC was still part of Xetic earlier this year, and F-E declared us, we sent a team of 30 BS's into their space. Within 10 minutes, we were outnumber quite baddly (we couldn't count the number of hostiles but local was up over 110). But, we stuck it out and camped the gate into their main system and actualy pulled out positive numbers.
We lost 3 battleships to about 8 kills, including about 5 BS's thanks to some really nice tactics used by our commander. The war decleration was dropped shortly after, was a good fight except for the people that went onto EVE-O forums and started petitions saying that we had exploited bugs in the game because there was no way a tempest could have survived fire from 50 ships for ... what was the clocked time, 1 minute and 43 seconds without ever blowing up. I think that made them the butt of alot of jokes for quite awhile when they realized that we simply all had remote armor repairers equipped.
Again, didn't matter that we only killed a half dozen of their big ships, fact that we stood our ground in their space for about an hour I believe even though they were outnumbering us 3 to 1 in combat pilots sent them a message that 1) we will fight back and 2) we do't need our entire fleet to deal with you.
Dakilla[666] ~ The Realm ~ Level 1000 enchanter (retired)
Maranthoric ~ La 4ieme Prophetie ~ Level 160 (5x) HE/Feu (de retour)
Leonthoric[DDC] ~ EVE online ~ <Fire The "Laser"> (retired)