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How strong are endgame gear upgrades?

JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
It is my understanding that like most Korean MMOs, the endgame gear grind consists of upgrading items through an RNG crafting system where the item can potentially be destroyed after a certain tier.  This seems problematic to me because I don't believe that PVP can truly be considered balanced and competitive until all combatants are at the gear cap.

In Western MMOs players generally have to farm daily/weekly/monthly capped tokens to buy the best gear which allows everyone to get to the cap and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. This gear is also BOP which means it cannot be sold on the auction house. Games like GW2 further reduce the gear gap by making the best gear only 5% stronger than the easily obtainable exotic gear.

Since Korean games make the best gear extremely rare and risky to obtain due to the RNG / casino nature of the crafting, then go a step further by making those items not BOP and sellable on the auction house which is influenced by real world cash, I have strong concerns that endgame pvp will be completely unbalanced like ArcheAge.

Do the RNG gear upgrades have massive stat bonuses like AA? or is it like GW2 where the vertical stat progression is extremely limited?

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Comments

  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    edited December 2015
    Jacobin said:
    It is my understanding that like most Korean MMOs, the endgame gear grind consists of upgrading items through an RNG crafting system where the item can potentially be destroyed after a certain tier.  This seems problematic to me because I don't believe that PVP can truly be considered balanced and competitive until all combatants are at the gear cap.

    In Western MMOs players generally have to farm daily/weekly/monthly capped tokens to buy the best gear which allows everyone to get to the cap and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. This gear is also BOP which means it cannot be sold on the auction house. Games like GW2 further reduce the gear gap by making the best gear only 5% stronger than the easily obtainable exotic gear.

    Since Korean games make the best gear extremely rare and risky to obtain due to the RNG / casino nature of the crafting, then go a step further by making those items not BOP and sellable on the auction house which is influenced by real world cash, I have strong concerns that endgame pvp will be completely unbalanced like ArcheAge.

    Do the RNG gear upgrades have massive stat bonuses like AA? or is it like GW2 where the vertical stat progression is extremely limited?

    Most players will get their "Green" set and enchant it to +18 / +19, then regrade it to a higher tier (green > blue > yellow).  It's cheaper that way because it will cost less to repair the item after each enchant fail.  Items don't break on a fail enchant but will lose an enchant.  There is two ways to repair items,  one is to sacifice an exact same item you are repairing or use "fragments of memory" to repair the item,  Those drop from boss scrolls and you get those scrolls from grinding mobs and elites.

    Other players will just grind as they go and save up and buy the Higher tier item in the AH.

    Higher tier items do drop from world bosses. 


    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    And how much stronger is say a +10 green compared to a +10 blue -- 10%, 50%?

    It sounds exactly like AA to be honest. Make PVP the endgame, but then turn the actual process of obtaining competitive gear into a never ending RNG rabbit hole.
  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,519
    Jacobin said:
    And how much stronger is say a +10 green compared to a +10 blue -- 10%, 50%?

    It sounds exactly like AA to be honest. Make PVP the endgame, but then turn the actual process of obtaining competitive gear into a never ending RNG rabbit hole.
    I can't answer all these questions for you but if your really interested, might i suggest this streamer who can :

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  • NewnanNewnan Member UncommonPosts: 98
    edited December 2015
    I have played KR BDO for a few month over the summer.

    The Gear progression is 0-7 for weapons and 0-5 on armor have zero % chance to fail and require just one black spirit weapon/armor stone to upgrade. as you get past those numbers you run into the chance to fail which lowers the durability of the item by 5 or 10 depending on the item (out of 100). Each enchant level adds about 6-8 main dmg stat to the weapon depending on the weapon you are enchanting a Riberto weapon being the best because it starts as blue with the highest initial damage stat plus +3 crit as the base roll with two sockets. Other weapons are close but a +14 Riberto will normally be equal to a +15 of all the green equivalent weapons (both pve and pvp). The green (pve or pvp) weapon can be upgraded to blue/yellow easily but the increase is very small and even the yellow version is about the same as a riberto's base stats just without as much attack damage.  


    Final bit of info is after +15 you can actually go back down in enhances to +15 and need a second tiered black spirit stone that run for a lot more then tier 1.  Also the game turns into Horse simulator 2015 where people sit afk running on their horses 24/7 to level and breed them (using both in game and out of game macro, Legally).

    IMO the game will be another Archeage and be heavy pay2win. I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week and then has easy time to PK/Owning  his/her way to a farming spot. Granted grind time will allow for more skill points for stronger skill ranks and higher lvl the gear in BDO is going to be controlled by the whales.

    Screw leveling games, give me something with "End game" at the beginning of the game.

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    At least one thing that's different is we won't have items in our cash shop that increase the chance of upgrading like in KR BDO because our version is buy to play.

    Also there is no level cap, so I believe it's possible to level significantly past a guy that never plays but spends tons on the cash shop and still kick his ass, so that's different from Archeage too.

    People have been harping on the possible P2W aspect of the game for awhile (that's why the upgrade thing got removed).  There's still possibility for more changes as they said they are continuing to review the cash shop, but it is likely that there will be some p2w aspect to the game, unfortunately.

    I honestly don't think it will be near as bad as Archeage, plus I haven't heard much about hacking and exploiting which is what really doomed Archeage in my opinion.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited December 2015
    Newnan said:
    IMO the game will be another Archeage and be heavy pay2win. I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week and then has easy time to PK/Owning  his/her way to a farming spot. Granted grind time will allow for more skill points for stronger skill ranks and higher lvl the gear in BDO is going to be controlled by the whales.
    Thanks for the honest answer.

    People have been harping on the possible P2W aspect of the game for awhile (that's why the upgrade thing got removed).  There's still possibility for more changes as they said they are continuing to review the cash shop, but it is likely that there will be some p2w aspect to the game, unfortunately.
    The entire business model of these games is to make the best gear extremely hard to get due to grinding and RNG crafting, but allow those rare/OP items to be sold in the AH. The Whales swoop in and claim pvp dominance.

    Sure you can spend cash for in-game gold in most games. The difference is that it cannot be converted into an instantaneous, massive stat advantage compared to the average player in the honest ones.

    The reality is that the pretty graphics and flashy action combat are just a lure to get people hooked into the cash shop.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited January 2016
    Allein said:
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive


  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Kiyoris said:
    Allein said:
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive


    No idea how the cash shop will operate on NA/EU. It's my hope they have cosmetic only items that aren't tradeable. Might have a better idea once CBT 2 starts
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited January 2016
    Kiyoris said:
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive
    And there is the true cost of playing Black Desert if you are a PvPer.

    Go ahead and grind for a year+ or whatever it takes to get +15, just remember that the entire time the non-cash players (suckers) will be fighting unkillable credit card warriors. And by the time a player actually gets there, +20 will be the new whale meta.
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited January 2016
    Kefo said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Allein said:
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive


    No idea how the cash shop will operate on NA/EU. It's my hope they have cosmetic only items that aren't tradeable. Might have a better idea once CBT 2 starts
    If anything in the cash shop can be trade in game for gold then can go south really fast.  If they do more like skyforge/gw2 with out using cash turn in to gold but can use gold turn in to items needed to get cosmetic in the cash shop then they'll be at a good standing for people can use gold or real money for cosmetic but can't sell them in game. If they go that way with there model.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,263
    edited January 2016
    Jacobin said:
    And how much stronger is say a +10 green compared to a +10 blue -- 10%, 50%?

    It sounds exactly like AA to be honest. Make PVP the endgame, but then turn the actual process of obtaining competitive gear into a never ending RNG rabbit hole.
    You can't have open world PvP if the players aren't out in the game world doing things. Who are you going to PvP if people are just sitting in town all day (and really what are they even doing in town all day in BDO lol)? Players are out grinding XP, skill points, gear, and other things. In an open world game you need to encourage player interaction in various ways to get the PvP going. Players will always be out grinding for different things in the world in Black Desert.

    It's not a themepark so you can't just have it all end and the player "win" by earning everything. What then would they do in game? There are no battlegrounds or instanced PvP. Are you going to run around the massive world on your horse (since it has no fast travel) looking for people to kill? No you'll get bored.

    You have guild vs guild wars as your primary form of PvP and this is open world PvP and the wars don't end unless the guild cancels it. This is the PvPvE nature of the game - you're out grinding, or maybe on your horse running back to town and encounter a few guys from the enemy guild - you go and attack them with your buddy, etc. Outside of that you have PK of course, but the Siege and Node battles are scheduled and timed events.

    You can't just siege all day everyday. It's once a week siege battles and twice a week node battles. Even those you need to prepare for ahead of time and you'll be out in the game grinding things for it.

    For an open world PvP game to work you need to encourage players to get out there and do things, which means nobody will ever be equal because no matter what you're out grinding, some will have more time to do it, or some will be better at it, etc. That's the nature of the game.

    Sure with softcaps on skill points, levels, and gear (gear has a hardcap too but the softcap is +15), if you grind enough you'll be relatively equal to most players at some point. But there will always be imbalances and it will never be perfect.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,263
    edited January 2016
    Jacobin said:
    The entire business model of these games is to make the best gear extremely hard to get due to grinding and RNG crafting, but allow those rare/OP items to be sold in the AH. The Whales swoop in and claim pvp dominance.

    This is not true in BDO. Getting gear is extremely easy (and not level locked so you can start earning and wearing endgame gear at low levels and if you make an alt, your alt can wear your main's gear from level 1). First of all crafting is not involved in the way it is in ArcheAge. The base item will drop off of mobs, or can be crafted (simple craft no RNG), or purchased off the AH for very cheap. From there, you enchant it with Blackstones which again, can be grinded from mobs, earned via quests, or via turning in items dropped off of mobs to NPCs, or purchased off the AH. Up to +7 in weapons and +5 in gear you can safely enchant with no fails. Beyond that it fails and a failure reduces the maximum durability, but does not reduce your enchant. So you just go to a Blacksmith with another copy of your item (the cheap unenchanted version) and this will increase your durability by 10. Repeat the process until you hit the softcap of +15. From there enchanting is harder as it should be.

    Point being, it's very easy to earn gear and enchant said gear. It just requires your grinding method of choice, but the RNG is minimal and easily overcome. One of the things I like about this game is that it's easy to gear up and you can choose how you grind in this game, doing activities you enjoy (i.e. grind mobs and certain quests for drops to either earn cash or directly gear up, participate in one of the many, many, many non-combat activities to earn cash and purchase your items, or craft everything directly which is likely slower but still your choice, etc.), unlike ArcheAge where I had to sit on a donkey all day inbetween literal farming. Two activities I hated. Gearing in this game is frankly quite easy, it's just a grind. And I find it a lot of fun actually to just go out grinding in this game so it's actually an enjoyable process. But you'll get there and it won't be hard.

    The only reason to try to P2W in BDO is if you're impatient. But this is a game where progression is literally neverending, so paying is completely stupid and won't get you any long term benefits. Not to mention, even if you have good gear, aside from the fact that everyone else will catch up, you still need to grind out levels, skill points, contribution points, energy, level and use your workers for crafting and gathering, etc. Those are all other very important methods of progression in BDO that you can't just pay your way through. They need to be grinded the old fashioned way and they all contribute to the game in important ways. This isn't a game where gear wins all. Sure you'll be temporarily powerful until people catch up, but you're still lacking in so many other ways.
  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001
    Kefo said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Allein said:
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive


    No idea how the cash shop will operate on NA/EU. It's my hope they have cosmetic only items that aren't tradeable. Might have a better idea once CBT 2 starts
    If anything in the cash shop can be trade in game for gold then can go south really fast.  If they do more like skyforge/gw2 with out using cash turn in to gold but can use gold turn in to items needed to get cosmetic in the cash shop then they'll be at a good standing for people can use gold or real money for cosmetic but can't sell them in game. If they go that way with there model.
    You can turn cash directly into gold in GW2, but that's not done often because getting competitive end-game gear does not require long grinding or massive gold investment.
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited January 2016
    tom_gore said:

    You can turn cash directly into gold in GW2, but that's not done often because getting competitive end-game gear does not require long grinding or massive gold investment.
    For sure in GW2 not to much a big deal for alot that someone can use real cash to get gems then trade it in to gold to buy gear in GW2 pretty much taking grind and making it a short cut last I played if still the same with gear in the game and how it works.

    In BDO can be a problem if gear the main factor that can throw things off something like Allods Online one can grind forever. But if somone pays in money they can out gear other players in faster rate even there are guilds in Allods Online is all base around cash shop user so guild vs guild become not balance in power on the top just become cash shop user guild. Not sure how it went with arche age I'm sure something like that was the same.

    Still time for BDO to lock that down with out letting people sell cash shop items in game if gear very big factor in the game.
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    tom_gore said:
    Kefo said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Allein said:
    Newnan said:
    I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week 
    How much would that cost?
    about $500

    there are several people with +15 in most slots and the best jewelry on the russian server, they spend about $500 to get to that point

    they are unkillable in PVP, even if 20 or more people attack them

    to get +20 you would need to spend far more, it is far more expensive


    No idea how the cash shop will operate on NA/EU. It's my hope they have cosmetic only items that aren't tradeable. Might have a better idea once CBT 2 starts
    If anything in the cash shop can be trade in game for gold then can go south really fast.  If they do more like skyforge/gw2 with out using cash turn in to gold but can use gold turn in to items needed to get cosmetic in the cash shop then they'll be at a good standing for people can use gold or real money for cosmetic but can't sell them in game. If they go that way with there model.
    You can turn cash directly into gold in GW2, but that's not done often because getting competitive end-game gear does not require long grinding or massive gold investment.
    I find it silly that people thinking selling an item somehow equates to p2w just cuz r/l money was spent on it. They won't get the RNG to that point or have the gold right off to begin with you just aren't making the money to buy items appear out of thin air and until people earn enough it'd be silly. Also given a game where there is any sorta trade/ah or anything... You'd still have the whales buying the items from disreputable people or grey markets and then run into more bot issues and the like on top of that... I dunno why we act like almost everything can't be in the same scenario... 
  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
    @ op if you gonna play bdo mainly because of pvp.. you wont be very happy playing bdo tho..
  • pinktailzpinktailz Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Those open world pvp games are meant to be F2P because people need fresh meat to kill in open world. I  can see they will get maximum of money they can from P2P and then re-release it as F2P with all  enchant cash shop bollocks. Those games not like ESO or GW2 with rich history, lore and well developed world, they are just pop out from nowhere and have only one meaning - kill, kill, kill.
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    pinktailz said:
    Those open world pvp games are meant to be F2P because people need fresh meat to kill in open world. I  can see they will get maximum of money they can from P2P and then re-release it as F2P with all  enchant cash shop bollocks. Those games not like ESO or GW2 with rich history, lore and well developed world, they are just pop out from nowhere and have only one meaning - kill, kill, kill.
    The pvp I don't know to much then what I was told as the system don't reward people for ganking to well but it's not mass amount numbers like other mmo with there pvp got to wait and see about that if comes out to be true. But anyhow if the cash shop don't break the game the pvp may break it if the system don't work out to well.
  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 860
    pinktailz said:
    Those open world pvp games are meant to be F2P because people need fresh meat to kill in open world. I  can see they will get maximum of money they can from P2P and then re-release it as F2P with all  enchant cash shop bollocks. Those games not like ESO or GW2 with rich history, lore and well developed world, they are just pop out from nowhere and have only one meaning - kill, kill, kill.
    The game is b2p and bdo is much more then just a pvp game.
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,666
    Is it worth playing this game as a purely PvE game and not participate in PvP or are you forced to PvP ?
    Chamber of Chains
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    edited January 2016
    From what I have read/watched gear after +15 enchants is really powerful, basically a player in +15 or even several players in +15 gear have no chance of beating someone in +18 gear. 
    ....
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    cheyane said:
    Is it worth playing this game as a purely PvE game and not participate in PvP or are you forced to PvP ?
    I would say that depends on what you aim to do at the level soft cap. There's PvE quests and a story as you level up but no "end game" PvE raids etc, just mobs to grind for enchant mats/gold and to reset any lost Karma you may have from PvP.

    The game is pretty much PvP focused. I'm surprised at one post saying anyone wouldbe disappointed if anyone was playing BDO for the PvP. Unless he's unhappy that ganking results in Karma loss.

    If you're not looking for end game raiding and are happy to level chars up, buy a house, decorate it, breed horses, craft etc then sure, ignore the PvP. You don't have to PvP but it is open world so there's always a chance that PvP might find you.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    ... You don't have to PvP but it is open world so there's always a chance that PvP might find you.
    ..so expect to get ganked on a regular basis... :D
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    cheyane said:
    Is it worth playing this game as a purely PvE game and not participate in PvP or are you forced to PvP ?


    The game is pretty much PvP focused. I'm surprised at one post saying anyone wouldbe disappointed if anyone was playing BDO for the PvP. Unless he's unhappy that ganking results in Karma loss.

    They probably said that because the gear/level gaps are extreme, potion spamming is a thing, and it appears that you will be able to just buy the most powerful gear (in a round about way). Some people likely think this is not a very good/satisfactory model for pvp and certainly the OP doesn't seem to like that kind of system.

    There looks to be a lot of sandboxy pve activities which might be the game's saving grace though.
    ....
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