Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Black Desert is pay 2 win.

1457910

Comments

  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    danwest58 said:
    If you are selling items on the Cash shop that help you upgrade your current gear (any enhancements) or gear that have stats and could be some of the best items in game, is P2W.  People who defend these games is one of the reason why the MMO genera is crap.  Simple fact is these companies would rather you spend money than play they game.  If you cannot see that maybe you need a bit more coffee to wake you up.  
    They are selling costume items which you can SELL to other players. The costume items have no stats etc. You are getting gold / items players have had to earn. It is not a p2w system based on that. That would be like calling the sub items you can sell in WoW a pay2win system cuz you can get them hold onto them and sell them for in game gold too... 
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    Waterlily said:
    Some person who seems to know what he's talking about.



    They'd be hard pressed to do ANYTHING with it because you know what? People need to EARN that money before they can even buy the cash shop items from other players unless they choose to sell them super cheap... 
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member RarePosts: 616
    danwest58 said:
    If you are selling items on the Cash shop that help you upgrade your current gear (any enhancements) or gear that have stats and could be some of the best items in game, is P2W.  People who defend these games is one of the reason why the MMO genera is crap.  Simple fact is these companies would rather you spend money than play they game.  If you cannot see that maybe you need a bit more coffee to wake you up.  
    They are selling costume items which you can SELL to other players. The costume items have no stats etc. You are getting gold / items players have had to earn. It is not a p2w system based on that. That would be like calling the sub items you can sell in WoW a pay2win system cuz you can get them hold onto them and sell them for in game gold too... 
    It is a simple concept. You pay money for an item that can sell in game which you use to buy top end gear. That is P2W no matter how you try to spin it. In a game like WoW the only way to buy items/gold is to use a 3rd party vendor which is bannable. Your analogy is wrong.

    MurderHerd

  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    Easy to fix. Sub for the game (nnooooo we want free to play) 
    Ok let's go free to play (noooooooooooooo you're putting a cash shop in, PTW)

    :) a rock and a hard place. I prefer a sub based game without shop. As long as content is changed on a regular enough basis. Developers have people to pay, wages to be met, profits to be spread. They have to make their money somehow.
    You mean like world of warcraft where you can buy extra subs and sell them in the auction house to earn in game gold? Almost everyone has a similar system these days and you can attempt to call it pay2win but it isn't realistically. People also need to remember that it'll take awhile for people that have oodles of cash to make this have any type of meaningful impact...
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    edited December 2015
    danwest58 said:
    If you are selling items on the Cash shop that help you upgrade your current gear (any enhancements) or gear that have stats and could be some of the best items in game, is P2W.  People who defend these games is one of the reason why the MMO genera is crap.  Simple fact is these companies would rather you spend money than play they game.  If you cannot see that maybe you need a bit more coffee to wake you up.  
    They are selling costume items which you can SELL to other players. The costume items have no stats etc. You are getting gold / items players have had to earn. It is not a p2w system based on that. That would be like calling the sub items you can sell in WoW a pay2win system cuz you can get them hold onto them and sell them for in game gold too... 
    It is a simple concept. You pay money for an item that can sell in game which you use to buy top end gear. That is P2W no matter how you try to spin it. In a game like WoW the only way to buy items/gold is to use a 3rd party vendor which is bannable. Your analogy is wrong.
    Patently untrue for WoW... they started to sell tokens people can buy that can be excahnged for in game sub time that can be sold to other players. https://us.battle.net/shop/en/product/world-of-warcraft-token

    Really want to say that is wrong again? Or are you completely oblivious to the things that blizzard does to WoW?
  • ortheneorthene Member UncommonPosts: 13
    edited December 2015
    If they would make cash shop items not tradable to other accounts.. problem solved.

  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    orthene said:
    If they would make cash shop items not tradable to other accounts.. problem solved.

    That solves nothing. It hinders new players from getting involved in PVP all that much when the community gets established... It only ends up creating further problems down the line. 
  • gamefreak565gamefreak565 Member UncommonPosts: 14
    You can pay money in order to obtain items that people would otherwise have to grind hours to get.

    In my mind, I don't see how this is anything BUT pay to win. It is completely irrelevant if other games do the same thing, p2w is what it is. Using gold farmers as an argument is also pointless, because they're not an intended mechanic in the game.
  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    DAOWAce said:

    Besides, you can directly convert money in Guild Wars 2 without needing to sell anything on the market; that's more pay to win, isn't it?  I don't see a storm about that.

    This sums it up well for me. BDO makes it harder to do RMT than GW2. In my book GW2 is not P2W, so I can live with BDO and be happier about it.


    I will point out that a few pages back this was brought up to the OP and he basically said that all of the current games were wrong. Shows you that the OP is way off base on P2W.


  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    edited December 2015
    You can pay money in order to obtain items that people would otherwise have to grind hours to get.

    In my mind, I don't see how this is anything BUT pay to win. It is completely irrelevant if other games do the same thing, p2w is what it is. Using gold farmers as an argument is also pointless, because they're not an intended mechanic in the game.
    Except pretty much every mainstream MMORPG on the planet does this at this point to some extent. They all sell items you can sell to other players (usually in the form of a sub or selling cash shop items.) You are not gaining an item others cannot get, you are not getting an edge in anything other than potentially time to earn the item and that only gives you an edge for a short while. You aren't going to "win" ultimately in a system like that. 
  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 608
    tom_gore said:
    Ok so the definition of P2W today is "any game that allows you to blow craploads of real money to gain a slight advantage without grinding for said advantage"?

    *Stupidity Snipped*
    Yes, that has always been the prevailing definition.

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    Kazuhiro said:
    tom_gore said:
    Ok so the definition of P2W today is "any game that allows you to blow craploads of real money to gain a slight advantage without grinding for said advantage"?

    *Stupidity Snipped*
    Yes, that has always been the prevailing definition.
    I can assure you the definition has heavily been skewed. The current definition of P2W encompasses pretty much the entirity of the mmorpg genre as a whole save for maybe FFXIV 
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    Adjuvant1 said:
    I'd like to touch on another point, briefly.

    If I spend (x) hours and legitimately earn "63 million", by this time I will have such a vast understanding of the game that I likely will not "need ogre ring", thus I will not buy ogre ring, instead opting to spend my acquired "63 million" on "items" or "services" which would be of more benefit to a person who has knowledge from the benefit of those (x) hours.

    So, then, who is buying "ogre ring" for "63 million" in the first place? Who, truly, has created the dilemma? The game designers? I don't think so.
    let me tell you how it will work: my sword do 4550 dmg, your 500 dmg, you dodge, you move, you run all over me, i hit you one time 4550 dmg, you are dead.

    now you will go buy the ogre ring

    i know these type of game, i got alot of money and in archeage i have spend alot of money, same for echo of soul, i was killing players 1 vs 8.

    black desert the same kind of game , that you like it or not, im going kill you in this game in one hit.
  • SulaaSulaa Member UncommonPosts: 1,329
    Kazuhiro said:
    tom_gore said:
    Ok so the definition of P2W today is "any game that allows you to blow craploads of real money to gain a slight advantage without grinding for said advantage"?

    *Stupidity Snipped*
    Yes, that has always been the prevailing definition.
    I can assure you the definition has heavily been skewed. The current definition of P2W encompasses pretty much the entirity of the mmorpg genre as a whole save for maybe FFXIV 
    Definiton was not skewed.   It just that western MMORPG market has changed from market in which practically all AAA MMORPGs were P2P no cash shop to practically all being official RMT/P2W games.

    Market changed not definiton of P2W and RMT.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    edited December 2015
    What did they win?

    I'm assuming this was brought up but I'm too lazy to read all the bickering, but if it is as easy as the OP claims where anyone can turn cash into the best items in the game that someone else had to earn whenever they want, they can't be that hard to obtain.

    BDO is a grindy game, be it your time/energy/money. Pretty much like every other mmo.

    Only played in CB1 so far, but as I've looked into higher end gear such as this "ring," people seem to have little problem obtaining it themselves if they really want it without paying anything.

    Fact is that no matter what, someone out there is going to put in more X than someone else and will have some advantage, be it direct or indirect.

    Want a 100% equal field, find a different genre. But unless you are born being in the top .01% skill of something, you are going to have to invest yourself one way or another.


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    OP's example is P2W as hell. I used to play a game like this a long time ago. It made me spend loads of RL cash on items from cash shop that I sold in the player market for ingame gold for which I bought equip in the player market. Those were the days :D
    "Made" you spend loads of RL cash?

    Or offered you a choice which you decided to act upon?
    Oh come on, man. The 2nd option obviously :)
    P2W is such a silly thing to try and use to describe a game. It's very subjective.

    The game may be "p2w". It may be a money sink. So long as the people playing the game understand the rules and are okay with that then what is the problem? People should understand the rules before playing a game.
    It's also needed to understand the game mechanics and how they work and how RMT will affect them. Each game is different. Each cash shop is different. Each impact, each cash shop has on the games is different. 

    Each one needs to be individually weighed based on what's possible with RMT vs what's possible without and what's the difference?

    I do not consider GW2 P2W. But it's not just because of the cash shop. It's the whole package. That same cash shop in almost any other MMO would be P2W. Why? Because in GW2, I can use real money to take a brand new toon and get it to level 80 with Top gear. But in GW2, getting to level cap and gear is ridiculously easy and offers no advantages. The game has other objectives that are not met by instant 80 with exotics.

    In another game where I can trade gems for crafting mats and instantly get to level cap fully geared is P2W.....depending on the game.


    So, it's more than what is sold in the cash shop. It's more than game mechanics, it's the overall picture that lets people who spend money do within the game.


    All that is well and good, but as for Black Desert....Unfortunately for this game, I am seeing RMT with RNG. That's never a good thing. You guys defending this, will see how bad it can be soon enough. Actually, I take that back.

    The problem with RNG manipulation is that it's not immediately obvious. But months after release, I assure you......everyone of you will know the difference between who RMTs and who doesn't.
  • gamefreak565gamefreak565 Member UncommonPosts: 14
    You can pay money in order to obtain items that people would otherwise have to grind hours to get.

    In my mind, I don't see how this is anything BUT pay to win. It is completely irrelevant if other games do the same thing, p2w is what it is. Using gold farmers as an argument is also pointless, because they're not an intended mechanic in the game.
    Except pretty much every mainstream MMORPG on the planet does this at this point to some extent. They all sell items you can sell to other players (usually in the form of a sub or selling cash shop items.) You are not gaining an item others cannot get, you are not getting an edge in anything other than potentially time to earn the item and that only gives you an edge for a short while. You aren't going to "win" ultimately in a system like that. 
    Like I said before, it doesn't matter if every operational MMO on the planet has this in their game; it does not change the fact that it is pay to win. Even if you get an edge for a short while, it is still an edge. I don't think that when people say "win" they mean you can pay to be the best player in the game. That's just ridiculous. They mean that you can pay money to get a distinct advantage over another player who chooses not to. Whether or not it relates to PvP, PvE, or power leveling is not relevant. 
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    Sulaa said:
    Kazuhiro said:
    tom_gore said:
    Ok so the definition of P2W today is "any game that allows you to blow craploads of real money to gain a slight advantage without grinding for said advantage"?

    *Stupidity Snipped*
    Yes, that has always been the prevailing definition.
    I can assure you the definition has heavily been skewed. The current definition of P2W encompasses pretty much the entirity of the mmorpg genre as a whole save for maybe FFXIV 
    Definiton was not skewed.   It just that western MMORPG market has changed from market in which practically all AAA MMORPGs were P2P no cash shop to practically all being official RMT/P2W games.

    Market changed not definiton of P2W and RMT.
    Uhh even current p2p games have similar setups as i showed for WoW for isntance.  The definition has been skewed to encompass any means to get gold outside of grinding. It used to be that the definition was about gear that gave you an edge that the average player couldn't get without paying. So yes it has skewed/changed. I've been around MMORPGs since their inception for the most part. This isn't the definition of what P2W used to be it's the new definition that has been skewed to be super broad. 
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited December 2015
    Easy to fix. Sub for the game (nnooooo we want free to play) 
    Ok let's go free to play (noooooooooooooo you're putting a cash shop in, PTW)

    :) a rock and a hard place. I prefer a sub based game without shop. As long as content is changed on a regular enough basis. Developers have people to pay, wages to be met, profits to be spread. They have to make their money somehow.
    You mean like world of warcraft where you can buy extra subs and sell them in the auction house to earn in game gold? Almost everyone has a similar system these days and you can attempt to call it pay2win but it isn't realistically. People also need to remember that it'll take awhile for people that have oodles of cash to make this have any type of meaningful impact...
    I agree even mmo don't have this system in play on the ground level seem fair when gold farmer comes to play people buy gold then get pass with that and with mmo this days are so busy to catch even player buying in game gold never catch them all red handed with out looking at all the player pass history.
  • nationalcitynationalcity Member UncommonPosts: 501
    edited December 2015
    This discussion has been going on since the KR version do you really think there gonna change it now?

    People that wanna play it are just gonna have to deal with it, there were people posting they were 15+ in gear two days into head start on the Russian version so I imagine it will be the same here.......... They stated they did it by buying costumes on the store and selling them in game not sure how it's gonna work here in the NA...

    But someone will find a way don't you worry.........
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,379
    I am not certain if this game is indeed play to win but any game that uses a RNG method to upgrade gear will be one I would personally avoid as I can never rely on something that is a crapshoot. You will inevitably end up losing some commodity either your precious time or money or both.

    If a game expects me to spend hours collecting resources then gives me only a small chance of upgrading my gear at the risk of losing the resources I had collected, I am then of the opinion I should simply not waste my time on that endeavour. However if that same gear may be obtained through various other methods like it is in FFXIV ARR I would be tempted to stay and try.
    Garrus Signature
  • linadragonlinadragon Member RarePosts: 589
    This discussion has been going on since the KR version do you really think there gonna change it now?

    People that wanna play it are just gonna have to deal with it, there were people posting they were 15+ in gear two days into head start on the Russian version so I imagine it will be the same here.......... They stated they did it by buying costumes on the store and selling them in game not sure how it's gonna work here in the NA...

    But someone will find a way don't you worry.........
    Game is b2p which is already diff so we'll see... 
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    Everyone who has played with an enchantment system that allows for your item to break and be removed from the game, knows where this ends. The treadmill of the game is playing against the RNG with the help of RMT.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    This discussion has been going on since the KR version do you really think there gonna change it now?

    People that wanna play it are just gonna have to deal with it, there were people posting they were 15+ in gear two days into head start on the Russian version so I imagine it will be the same here.......... They stated they did it by buying costumes on the store and selling them in game not sure how it's gonna work here in the NA...

    But someone will find a way don't you worry.........
    And in 2 days others already had what these people wanted apparently. 2 days of farming or spending some cash, seems horrible...
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    OP's example is P2W as hell. I used to play a game like this a long time ago. It made me spend loads of RL cash on items from cash shop that I sold in the player market for ingame gold for which I bought equip in the player market. Those were the days :D
    "Made" you spend loads of RL cash?

    Or offered you a choice which you decided to act upon?
    Many of those games don't offer you a choice but to quit.  The difference between a +0 and +15 is massive in these games. I'm sure it's no different in BDO. The content gets increasingly harder for people with +0, they're increasingly shunned in PVE and PVP, and the only choices you speak of, are spending RL cash or quit. For most it's quit once they realized how much money they're spending.

    Plenty of people know what games we're talking about.
This discussion has been closed.