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Black Desert is pay 2 win.

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Comments

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    kikamukow said:
    a person who spent $100-$1000

     yeah sure hes got a few more chances at RNG but because its RNG still means he isnt getting a distinct advantage now is he ?
    you're completely contradicting yourself

    if someone has more chances, he's at an advantage against someone who doesn't
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    But grinding a billion rats is not the only way to come into possession of the item. The statement is disingenuous. It's not that you are purposefully being disingenuous, I see the argument, but "grinding one billion rats is not the only way to earn 'ogre ring', nor is manipulating cash transaction the only way to earn 63 million". If indeed this were the case, the item would likely not exist to be bought or the value questioned.

    Further, this isn't to say this statement, that "a person who possesses ogre ring will win", is factual.
  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    edited December 2015
    This system is so insanely much better than any system that lets you directly purchase in game currency.  We have already seen from EVE and GW2 that systems like this end up not negatively affecting the in game economy, are not pay 2 win, and in fact work really well.

    I don't think we have ever seen a game where a system like this negatively impacted it.  It allows players to get cash shop items without paying cash, it allows players to invest large amounts of money into the game if they want to, and it regulates itself due to all the currency needing to be actually earned by players from in game faucets.

    You are sounding the alarm too early.  Look at how well this system works in other titles.  Not even going to bother having a semantics fight about what is "pay 2 win."

    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.

  • kikamukowkikamukow Member UncommonPosts: 6
    dose it make it that if i put money into this game i will have a distinct advantage over someone who dosnt ? 

    no its dose not. cause of the RNG element i dont have a distinct advantage cause i could spend $100 and still fail and someone who spend nothing could succeed and that alone makes this game NOT P2W


  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Baitness said:

    You are sounding the alarm too early.

    I agree with this statement. It is called "threat fatigue". We need to "yell fire in a crowded theater" when there is a fire in a crowded theater, or no one will listen, at all, after a handful more "yells".
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    kikamukow said:
    dose it make it that if i put money into this game i will have a distinct advantage over someone who dosnt ? 

    no its dose not. cause of the RNG element i dont have a distinct advantage cause i could spend $100 and still fail and someone who spend nothing could succeed and that alone makes this game NOT P2W


    Of course you have an advantage. Just because there's no certainty with RNG, doesn't mean you don't have an advantage.

    A hare has a distinct advantage against a turtle in a race, maybe the hare will get unlucky and get hit by lightning, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an advantage.

    Maybe you will somehow be incredibly unlucky and never succeed a single enchant, and every $ you spent will be wasted, but the likelyhood of that happening is low.

    If there was no advantage, no one would be buying from the cash shop to resell in the first place.
  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 860
    edited December 2015
    Baitness said:
    This system is so insanely much better than any system that lets you directly purchase in game currency.  We have already seen from EVE and GW2 that systems like this end up not negatively affecting the in game economy, are not pay 2 win, and in fact work really well.

    I don't think we have ever seen a game where a system like this negatively impacted it.  It allows players to get cash shop items without paying cash, it allows players to invest large amounts of money into the game if they want to, and it regulates itself due to all the currency needing to be actually earned by players from in game faucets.

    You are sounding the alarm too early.  Look at how well this system works in other titles.  Not even going to bother having a semantics fight about what is "pay 2 win."

    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.

    I completely agree with you. However, it doesn't matter how you word it.[mod edit]
    Post edited by Amana on
  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    Imho, the paying method seems it will be a lot slower (depending of course).

    You need 60mil and they sell for less than 5 mill, you would need to buy and HOPE to sell 13 - 15 costumes to get your hands on one ring....that just seems like a waste of time tbh, could sell 5 instantly, but then end up waiting a week to sell just one. Not sure how long it takes, but probably be easier to find the mats and ask someone to make it for you or get it yourself if it's a drop
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    Adjuvant1 said:
    But grinding a billion rats is not the only way to come into possession of the item. The statement is disingenuous. It's not that you are purposefully being disingenuous, I see the argument, but "grinding one billion rats is not the only way to earn 'ogre ring', nor is manipulating cash transaction the only way to earn 63 million". If indeed this were the case, the item would likely not exist to be bought or the value questioned.

    Further, this isn't to say this statement, that "a person who possesses ogre ring will win", is factual.

    Baitness said:
    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.


    Both are points the OP refuses to address; instead, OP will scream "P2W" at the top of their lungs.

    This system reduces the damage RMT/Bots can inflict to the game, and also assists players who don't wish to spend money to receive marketplace items.

    Whales are in every game, and it is possible for someone to spend drastic amounts of money IRL for an in-game advantage (of TIME, not POWER) in nearly all MMOs (by purchasing from Gold sellers). That doesn't objectively make all MMOs P2Win, or make all whales "winners".
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    fodell54 said:
    Baitness said:
    This system is so insanely much better than any system that lets you directly purchase in game currency.  We have already seen from EVE and GW2 that systems like this end up not negatively affecting the in game economy, are not pay 2 win, and in fact work really well.

    I don't think we have ever seen a game where a system like this negatively impacted it.  It allows players to get cash shop items without paying cash, it allows players to invest large amounts of money into the game if they want to, and it regulates itself due to all the currency needing to be actually earned by players from in game faucets.

    You are sounding the alarm too early.  Look at how well this system works in other titles.  Not even going to bother having a semantics fight about what is "pay 2 win."

    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.

    I completely agree with you. However, it doesn't matter how you word it. It will never translate to someone that is this closed minded.

    Well, the term "P2W" is so broad now that it's just a matter of personal preference and view point on what is offensive game behavior.  If this is offensive to him / her then it is absolutely Pay to Win in their eyes, and that's okay.
    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    edited December 2015
    Adjuvant1 said:
    But grinding a billion rats is not the only way to come into possession of the item. The statement is disingenuous. It's not that you are purposefully being disingenuous, I see the argument, but "grinding one billion rats is not the only way to earn 'ogre ring', nor is manipulating cash transaction the only way to earn 63 million". If indeed this were the case, the item would likely not exist to be bought or the value questioned.

    Further, this isn't to say this statement, that "a person who possesses ogre ring will win", is factual.

    Baitness said:
    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.


    Both are points the OP refuses to address; instead, OP will scream "P2W" at the top of their lungs.

    This system reduces the damage RMT/Bots can inflict to the game, and also assists players who don't wish to spend money to receive marketplace items.

    Whales are in every game, and it is possible for someone to spend drastic amounts of money IRL for an in-game advantage (of TIME, not POWER) in nearly all MMOs (by purchasing from Gold sellers). That doesn't objectively make all MMOs P2Win, or make all whales "winners".
    ^This

    Another thread where the OP isn't trying to debate...just shove an opinion down your throat.

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015


    This system reduces the damage RMT/Bots can inflict to the game, and also assists players who don't wish to spend money to receive marketplace items.

    ^This

    Another post where the OP isn't trying to debate...just shove an opinion down your throat.
    I responded to pretty much everyone at least once. At least be honest in my thread.

    The fact Black Desert is taking the Gold Selling onto themselves, is a weird argument.

    Gold sellers disappearing by making games pay2win is an incredibly weird argument in favor of pay2win, one doesn't justify the other for me.

    The only thing I can say about that, is that it might be true, cash shops probably drive out gold sellers, but I don't like either, I don't think either one justifies the other at all.
  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    fodell54 said:
    Baitness said:
    This system is so insanely much better than any system that lets you directly purchase in game currency.  We have already seen from EVE and GW2 that systems like this end up not negatively affecting the in game economy, are not pay 2 win, and in fact work really well.

    I don't think we have ever seen a game where a system like this negatively impacted it.  It allows players to get cash shop items without paying cash, it allows players to invest large amounts of money into the game if they want to, and it regulates itself due to all the currency needing to be actually earned by players from in game faucets.

    You are sounding the alarm too early.  Look at how well this system works in other titles.  Not even going to bother having a semantics fight about what is "pay 2 win."

    Edit:  On top of it all, every decent MMO ever made has gold sellers.  This method is so drastically superior to letting gold sellers dominate your economy.

    I completely agree with you. However, it doesn't matter how you word it. It will never translate to someone that is this closed minded.

    Well, the term "P2W" is so broad now that it's just a matter of personal preference and view point on what is offensive game behavior.  If this is offensive to him / her then it is absolutely Pay to Win in their eyes, and that's okay.
    "I do not like the system" sounds a lot different from "the system is pay 2 win." It also means something completely different. He is not here telling us he does not like it, he is trying to convince us that the player that pays the most wins the game.  Which, based on the evidence he so generously provided, is absurd.

    Slightly off topic, but I am getting real sick of this "feelings trump reality" stuff.
  • DXSinsDXSins Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Kiyoris said:

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    No the point doesn't stand, vanilla items are not the same as +15 enchanted items.

    Not in power, not in cost, and not in commonness.
    Make your mind up and saying others don't know that games system when you don't lol.

    Gear that can go up to +15 - +20 DOES NOT break (after +16 you lose enchant level on fail) and you can pick up +15 greens 6-12mil... much cheaper than a ogre ring in your example.

    Only accessories break and max enchant ive seen in +4... they don't go anywhere near +15 and certainly don't lose durability like one of your comments says since they both break on fail lol.

    And as others have said... you will be hard pressed to find a mmo that doesn't allow cash shop into currency safely now. Devs know this has happened for over a decade on the black market and is becoming more common to provide a safe way to do so while making money themselves.

    Remember people can only buy these items for $ because OTHER people decide to list them on the ah... players in the game decide what is sold, not the greed of the devs.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    I responded to pretty much everyone at least once. At least be honest in my thread.

    You responded with what could be summed up as, "Nuh-uh, it's P2W".

    It's hardly a conversation when one person just continues to repeat the same thing (opinions, at that, not even facts) over and over to all responses, regardless of their content.
  • kikamukowkikamukow Member UncommonPosts: 6
    P2W means i have an advantage that another person who DOSNT spend money HASNT got but this is not the case so please stop trying to flag the game as P2W . learn the definintion of P2W so you know what your talking about.

    if you dont wish to play the game then dont its as simple as that but please stop spouting crap about P2W and shit just cause you have a problem with the way the game is worked. as stated before GW2 isnt classed as P2W yet there you can directly transfer gems into gold 
  • BaitnessBaitness Member UncommonPosts: 675
    MrSyn said:
    Kiyoris said:

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    No the point doesn't stand, vanilla items are not the same as +15 enchanted items.

    Not in power, not in cost, and not in commonness.
    Make your mind up and saying others don't know that games system when you don't lol.

    Gear that can go up to +15 - +20 DOES NOT break (after +16 you lose enchant level on fail) and you can pick up +15 greens 6-12mil... much cheaper than a ogre ring in your example.

    Only accessories break and max enchant ive seen in +4... they don't go anywhere near +15 and certainly don't lose durability like one of your comments says since they both break on fail lol.

    And as others have said... you will be hard pressed to find a mmo that doesn't allow cash shop into currency safely now. Devs know this has happened for over a decade on the black market and is becoming more common to provide a safe way to do so while making money themselves.

    Remember people can only buy these items for $ because OTHER people decide to list them on the ah... players in the game decide what is sold, not the greed of the devs.
    That is another important point.  Not only is the gold being earned by actual players, the stuff put on the AH is also being earned by players.  Everything but the costumes are coming from in game, and this is giving a way for players that do not want to spend money to get those costumes.

    This is a good thing.
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Baitness said:
    fodell54 said:
    Baitness said:


    Well, the term "P2W" is so broad now that it's just a matter of personal preference and view point on what is offensive game behavior.  If this is offensive to him / her then it is absolutely Pay to Win in their eyes, and that's okay.
    "I do not like the system" sounds a lot different from "the system is pay 2 win." It also means something completely different. He is not here telling us he does not like it, he is trying to convince us that the player that pays the most wins the game.  Which, based on the evidence he so generously provided, is absurd.

    Slightly off topic, but I am getting real sick of this "feelings trump reality" stuff.
    That's fair enough to say.  Mainly because the OP is essentially calling those who don't agree "deluded" or some such in a few of the posts.  Also, I would agree with you on that last part.

    Though as a whole, the OP is getting teamed up on for their viewpoints.  Perhaps articulation could be less aggressive so that it seems more of an opinion rather than bringing it up as a fact.  Though I'm sure the intent was such, and it was just lost when responding to everyone in general.
    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • mentoplusmentoplus Member UncommonPosts: 73
    kikamukow said:
    P2W means i have an advantage that another person who DOSNT spend money HASNT got but this is not the case so please stop trying to flag the game as P2W . learn the definintion of P2W so you know what your talking about.

    if you dont wish to play the game then dont its as simple as that but please stop spouting crap about P2W and shit just cause you have a problem with the way the game is worked. as stated before GW2 isnt classed as P2W yet there you can directly transfer gems into gold 
    but it IS the same case, you could buy 200 dollars of gems and sell costumes and you could play the entire game without looting a single mob, and still have more money that a player that lost 1/4 of that time looting things
    time is the most expensive thing in the world, if you want to know if a game is p2w all you have to do is look if there is a way to pay money to save time and that is already p2w
  • WaterlilyWaterlily Member UncommonPosts: 3,105
    If this isn't Pay to Win, what exactly is it? I'm done trying to find excuses for these MMO casinos. You guys can keep at it, you all know you're lying to yourselves.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    I'd like to touch on another point, briefly.

    If I spend (x) hours and legitimately earn "63 million", by this time I will have such a vast understanding of the game that I likely will not "need ogre ring", thus I will not buy ogre ring, instead opting to spend my acquired "63 million" on "items" or "services" which would be of more benefit to a person who has knowledge from the benefit of those (x) hours.

    So, then, who is buying "ogre ring" for "63 million" in the first place? Who, truly, has created the dilemma? The game designers? I don't think so.
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    Waterlily said:
    If this isn't Pay to Win, what exactly is it? I'm done trying to find excuses for these MMO casinos. You guys can keep at it, you all know you're lying to yourselves.
    I think there is some confusion here.  That or I didn't read something correct or am not placing dots on the lines.  But I don't think there is a "buy lockbox for gear" thing in this game.  The items on the auction house were made and earned by players, as is the gold used to buy them.  This is essentially a veteran player giving gold that he / she earned to a friend, except that in this case you get it from a stranger that earned it and you pay them for their time.  Take that for what you will on if you find it offensive to your personal enjoyment of the game in question.
    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Adjuvant1 said:
    I'd like to touch on another point, briefly.

    If I spend (x) hours and legitimately earn "63 million", by this time I will have such a vast understanding of the game that I likely will not "need ogre ring", thus I will not buy ogre ring, instead opting to spend my acquired "63 million" on "items" or "services" which would be of more benefit to a person who has knowledge from the benefit of those (x) hours.

    So, then, who is buying "ogre ring" for "63 million" in the first place? Who, truly, has created the dilemma? The game designers? I don't think so.
    This game looks more and more similar to Vindictus to me, at least the enchantment system, which seems to be the largest money sink the game, and the upper echelon of the economy.

    It is not mathematically possible in Vindictus to get max gear by not buying real life money. Why? Because the RNG on enchants is such that you can never collect enough items or money, to overcome the RNG. Just like in Vindictus, Black Desert jewelry gets destroyed on failed enchants.

    The only way to do it, is to increase your RNG chances to buy items from the cash shop, and buy cash shop items and exchange them for money, and then hoard items to overcome destroyed items.
  • Gymrat313Gymrat313 Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited December 2015
    p2p games are pay to win because I can't even get in without having to pay!
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Gymrat313 said:
    p2p games are pay to win because I can't even get in without having to pay!
    Then there would be no definition of "p2p", but of course, there is. Point is moot. There are two distinct concepts here and conflating them is not helpful.
This discussion has been closed.