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Black Desert is pay 2 win.

KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
edited December 2015 in Black Desert Online
Let me tell you the truth. Very few other people will.

Black Desert is Pay2Win.

To buy expensive items from the market, you buy cash shop items, sell those cash shop items on the market, and then buy items from each other.

This is how most of the economy works in Black Desert.


Basically, let's say you want to buy this ring from the market.

Ogre's ring, 63 million.





Either you grind for weeks, or.....

We buy "pearls" from the cash shop with real money.



We buy, let's say costumes, with pearls from cash shop.





Now we go back to the market and sell our costumes:





Now we can buy our RING.


Pay2Win.
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Comments

  • jesusforgamesjesusforgames Member UncommonPosts: 6
    That's not Pay2win
  • Karnage69Karnage69 Member UncommonPosts: 323
    edited December 2015
    Backwards way of doing it, but still pay to win in my opinion. OP has a point.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    If this is your example, GW2, EVE, SWToR, WildStar, WoW, etc. are also P2Win.

    Sorry, not really seeing this as P2Win.

    If they directly sold equipment in the market or sold DMG boosting items, forced you to pay to continue playing (stamina/energy), etc. then I'd consider it P2Win.
    Post edited by EponyxDamor on
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    If they directly sold equipment in the market or sold DMG boosting items, etc. then I'd consider it P2Win.
    More powerful items always creep into the Korean cash shops over time.

    Anyway, what items are being sold is irrelevant, the fact is that the cash shop items represent the economy right now. It sets the prices of items.

    If you don't spend real life money, you don't have access to the upper marketplace.
  • jesusforgamesjesusforgames Member UncommonPosts: 6
    You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.

    Bull, you don't understand how this game works. Enchanting rings have very high failure rate. A failed enchantment on a ring destroys it.

    The enchanting system is exactly the same as in Vindictus. The RNG of enchanting is such that the value of items decreases and the cash shop becomes the main driving force behind the economy.
  • fodell54fodell54 Member RarePosts: 860
    edited December 2015
    All MMO's are pay to win. I can go buy gold/ power leveling/ items/ accounts for any MMO ever released. It's just the nature of the beast and has been since UO was released.

     No one remembers vanq katanas selling on Ebay for $1000? Companies just finally figured out to cut out the middle man and make some money themselves.

    It's all just a matter of prospective. This is way this whole argument has never made any sense.
    Post edited by fodell54 on
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,515
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.

    Bull, you don't understand how this game works. Enchanting rings have very high failure rate. A failed enchantment on a ring destroys it.

    The enchanting system is exactly the same as in Vindictus. The RNG of enchanting is such that the value of items decreases and the cash shop becomes the main driving force behind the economy.
    But where did the enchanted Ogre ring come from in the first place?  Did the vendor create it out of thin air? If so then I agree, pay to win. (especially if this is the only way this item enters the game world)

    Did a player create the item, risking the possible failure of it during the enchanting process?  If so, not pay to win, since players can grind 63m gold if they wish to buy it.


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  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    Did the vendor create it out of thin air? If so then I agree, pay to win.


    What a strange argument.

    So, a person being able to buy every single item from the marketplace by using RL money, converting RL cash into power, is not pay2win?

    By your definition, Vindictus isn't pay 2 win either, which is a hilarious argument.

    [mod edit]
    Post edited by Amana on
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    edited December 2015
    I agree with OP on this one.

    Rappelz had something similar with combining pet cards to produce a stronger pet. If it failed, you'd lose one. RNG was a factor which could be manipulated through the cash shop.

    And to me, it doesn't really matter what we call pay to win or not. If the game's "meta" will ultimately be dominated by this and similar practices. And where players will be divided by those who spend on top vs those who don't, on the bottom. Then it doesn't really matter what you call it. Players who use RMT the most, will tend to be the ones who rule the roost. They will be the Alpha Wolves.

    If you want to run with the big dogs, you have to break out the credit card.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    Kyleran said:
    Did the vendor create it out of thin air? If so then I agree, pay to win.


    What a strange argument.

    So, a person being able to buy every single item from the marketplace by using RL money, converting RL cash into power, is not pay2win?

    By your definition, Vindictus isn't pay 2 win either, which is a hilarious argument.

    [mod edit]
    Since it's not an advantage that isn't awarded exclusively by spending RL money, no, it's not P2Win. That specific item came from a player, not the Pearl Marketplace; another player can choose to pay for it by purchasing and reselling Pearl Marketplace items, but that's not the only option they have.

    Kyle said what I couldn't much more neatly and concisely.

    You might consider it P2Win (in which case, you must also consider all MMOs P2Win), but that doesn't objectively make it so.
    Post edited by Amana on
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    Not going say your wrong or right is it some the pictures you have only show the game over sea thats not base around NA/EU when it does give upper hand if you spend money and and sell it for in game money. Hell even sub game are doing this we'll never be safe:)
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Since it's not an advantage that isn't awarded exclusively by spending RL money, no, it's not P2Win.

    The failure rate on some enchants is such that simply by grinding, there is no possible way to attain certain items.

    The argument that a game isn't pay2 win, because you can grind 1,000,000,000 rats, which would take longer than the lifespan of the MMO, reeks of intellectual dishonesty.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    Since it's not an advantage that isn't awarded exclusively by spending RL money, no, it's not P2Win.

    The failure rate on some enchants is such that simply by grinding, there is no possible way to attain certain items.

    The argument that a game isn't pay2 wing, because you can grind 1,000,000,000 rats, which would take longer than the lifespan of the MMO, reeks of intellectual dishonesty.
    Except it's clearly not impossible since a player is selling the item.
    [mod edit]
    Post edited by Amana on
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited December 2015
    Yes that describes exactly how RMT in games work only instead of outside rmt it is the developer taking part.

    What RMT have done for years is attain/camp/bot valuable assets.Sell gold for real money,then player takes that gold and buys that farmed item from the RMT ,so in essence they get that same money they sold to player back to resell the same money again.Then they attain more and more of wanted asset and they literally double and triple their profits.

    It is basically like taking a sub fee and double tripling it,that is why these cash shop games can survive on so few people actually spending money.The more the value of an item rises the more that sub fee is multiplied and the system feeds itself so it skyrockets to heights far far above the actual value/worth of that item.



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  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Except it's clearly not impossible since a player is selling the item.

    [mod edit]
    You need to enchant those items. Have you never played an MMO before? Enchants break jewelry items.

    Vanilla marketplace items are only a precursor to the enchant system in Black Desert.

    Acquiring the vanilla item is only the beginning, the enchantment and repairing of durability caused by enchants is where the costs start.


    Post edited by Amana on
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    edited December 2015
    There are many ways to go about this.  Most logically -- with me half-agreeing with the words of the OP at the end of this otherwise "against" post -- we can see it as this:

    If the item is generated and or crafted by a player who sells it on the market board, and the gold received by any means was also generated in the same way... the prospect of how is irrelevant whether by time investment or otherwise.

    To say differently is a direct contrast to the entirety of MMOs with the existence of Gold Sellers, people who pay others to play their accounts, people who have 10+ accounts, people who quit their jobs to play games or have the luxury of playing 24/7 among other things.

    Officially World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2, for example, both have this system in place.  As does Eve and Wildstar and a host of other games.  Unofficially, every game has this system.

    Pretty much anything can be "pay to win" on any game; it's strict definitions and the understanding of systems and how the market makes money that make something offensive.  Though we all have our breaking points and if one is completely black and white when it comes to seeing things, then this is definitively P2W in their mindset and that's just fine.

    Time will tell if the "make or break" system will truly be a deal breaker for most.  If it is too difficult to make a ring on your own to the point where you just have to show your credit card to get the best items, then this game absolutely will be buying power -- at least for the first few months until they become common place and supply and demand being limited.

    We would then have to see how often new shinies are put into the game and see how supply and demand represents them.  We also have to see if this is "PvE" power and or "PvP power as a whole when at the end of the day.

    Buying power at it's core?  Yes?  Offensive or obscene?  Remains to be seen, as most every game has this now and it's a great way for a game to make money so long as they aren't just creating items out of thin air to be sold directly to players and the original item was worked for by a lucky individual.

    Edit:

    We have to see how important gear is as well.  Though as long as the best stuff is earned by someone and not just a lock-box drop or directly paying for something out of thin air, there is still reason to play "wait and see".
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  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    Except it's clearly not impossible since a player is selling the item.
    [mod edit]
    You need to enchant those items. Have you never played an MMO before? Enchants break items.
    I've played plenty. Thanks for asking!

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    It's not impossible, like you're making it out to be. It's not like the game is forcing you to pay money to play or twisting your arm along the way to do so. You have a choice to spend money to obtain an item more easily, or to go the traditional route to obtain the item.

    In fact, I see the ability to sell marketplace items in-game as being a good thing. It gives players an alternative method of achieving items they might otherwise have to spend money on. It also mitigates some RMT and botting issues.

    You can't look at one side of the equation and scream "P2W" at the top of your lungs. Unless, of course, the game sells items like World of Tanks does.
    Post edited by Amana on
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    No the point doesn't stand, vanilla items are not the same as +15 enchanted items.

    Not in power, not in cost, and not in commonness.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    I have a problem with this loose definition of "P2W". Here's the thing. With enough time expenditure, you can still get "ogre ring" one method or another. All you've demonstrated is a way to "pay to save time",  which is not considered P2W in anyone's book, save a few who want to make an argument.

    Pay to win must be over and above what is, or can be, reasonably expected for a competing player to be able to acquire. If I can spend 100 hours and get something you can buy straight away, it simply is not pay to win. You are not presenting a correct representation of the concept. You are mistaken.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    No the point doesn't stand, vanilla items are not the same as +15 enchanted items.

    Not in power, not in cost, and not in commonness.
    Until they're selling the items (exclusively) in the Pearl Marketplace, the point stands.

    How many times do I have to explain it?
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Kiyoris said:

    Point still stands: It is possible to achieve without spending money.

    No the point doesn't stand, vanilla items are not the same as +15 enchanted items.

    Not in power, not in cost, and not in commonness.
    Until they're selling the items (exclusively) in the Pearl Marketplace, the point stands.

    How many times do I have to explain it?
    I already explained why your argument is flawed.

    "The argument that a game isn't pay2 win, because you can grind 1,000,000,000 rats, which would take longer than the lifespan of the MMO, reeks of intellectual dishonesty."
  • kikamukowkikamukow Member UncommonPosts: 6
    its quite funny actually cause you claim because its such a high RNG on enchatning items that its pay2win 

    yet if we put it this way and say that one person buys and has success with upgrading useing the silver he EARNT in game is at a disadvantage to say a person who spent $100-$1000 on the same item multiple times yet still failed ALL hes upgrading ???

    this make zero sense cause pay2win literally means that i pay to have an advantage but  this person isnt getting an advantage is he ? yeah sure hes got a few more chances at RNG but because its RNG still means he isnt getting a distinct advantage now is he ? 

    all he is doing is paying for more CHANCES of an advantage which DOSNT make it pay2win its more along the lines of online gambling

    and yes i cant spell get over it.
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 749
    Kiyoris said:

    I already explained why your argument is flawed.

    "The argument that a game isn't pay2 win, because you can grind 1,000,000,000 rats, which would take longer than the lifespan of the MMO, reeks of intellectual dishonesty."
    Dishonest? Perhaps to some.

    Objectively P2Win? Nope.

    Given the current market of games with this same exact system in place (GW2, EVE, SWToR, WildStar, etc.) I'd say this is pretty normal, actually, and far from P2Win (Bonuses/Items only available for RL currency).

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    edited December 2015
    It doesn't matter what you call P2W or how you define it to provide whatever wiggle room you need to classify a game as P2W or not P2W. That doesn't change what is going on inside the game. That's what matters. Who are the big dogs? How did they get there? How do they stay there? Etc etc. If RMT has anything to do with that, that's all I need to know.
This discussion has been closed.