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A bit discouraged over lack of HARD CC...

will75will75 Member UncommonPosts: 365
But, only time will tell if it's added the way it really should be. Nobody since DAOC has done hard CC in the same way...  I was discouraged when i seen this would be mostly soft CC :( I guess time will tell?

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Comments

  • MerdurMerdur Member UncommonPosts: 27
    Hard CC, even during DAoC, was hated by most. Hard CC is a terrible system, locking someone out of control for 5+minutes is ridiculous and is primarily what led to the decline of the PvP in that game. Allowing a group of 8 to take on a zerg of 50+ and win just because you have an i-win button is not good game play or skill. CC in general is a shit system for skill based PvP, but all games with decent PvP have gone to the soft system because more people like it and it requires timing and more skill to know when and how to use your CC to be effective. Movement and positioning should be the overall deciding factors in a good PvP game, LoS blocking and ambushing should be what decide a battle not a 5 minutes mez that only few can get out of because of long CDs to counter it. If you want a hard CC system then there needs to be just as many short counters to the long timers as there are CCs OR the hard CC's need to have longer CD's. Want to use that 5 minute mez? It has a 20 minute CD, only way i see it being balanced, DAoC was a great game with lots of great fights, until they destroyed the melee/counter caster gameplay and turned casters/CC into the end all be all of PvP.
  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Soft CC sounds good to me as well.
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    They are nowhere near close to what abilities actually do.  The system is very much in flux.  That being said, DAoC is their inspiration and namesake.  I would expect the rock, paper, scissor system to be here as well.  Look for some things to show up and be unbalanced.  They will probably scale stuff back after that.  I will say that their decision to lock classes into their own ability set (read class identity) and that they will not be mirrored across factions as a good indication of where they might be going.  Mark has said they want decisions to matter in their game.  This includes the realm you are fighting for and land you are taking.  Each server will evolve into its own thing and form its own identity because of it.  The same is true for classes.  What I'm getting at with all this is that hard CC is possible (and likely IMHO) because you would need to rely on others to break you out of it.  The class that has hard CC will be known for it and opponents that go up against said class would be wise to plan accordingly.

    The one thing I would say for sure this game won't cater well to is perhaps the solo player.  But then again a crafting class might be an option instead, albeit out in the wild you would probably want friends for protection.
  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    Solo-friendly candidates off the top of my head: Crafting (repairing, trading...), Scouts, Rogues, Archers (camo), maybe even Bards (depending on implementation and CC) together with some specific classes - say, Abbot or HelBound might fit very well into solo/small scale, even with some OP potential.
     W...aaagh?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,921
    Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.

    They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,541
    DMKano said:
    I was a huge fan of hard CC in DAoC. It was unbalancing to the extreme but that's what made it fun.

    Absolutely.  I do NOT want this game to be a balanced Esport.  I want a freaking WAR where sometimes things just aren't fair or even.  I want to be cursing into my mic about the damn OPed whatever...

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  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 Member UncommonPosts: 336
    This is a argument that CU fans have been having for a while. 

    CC is a tool. Hard CC is a very big, very heavy tool.

    Zergs are the problem, however I don't think hard CC is the only solution to that problem. It's a bad mechanic. It's effective at stopping zergs, but it's like using a 5000 ton crane to change your car tire. Sure it'll work, but it's big and ugly, and you could do the same thing with the crappy jack in the trunk. 
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Kyleran said:
    Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.

    They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.

    Yup, this will be a deal breaker for me too.
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  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    CU Wiki on CC (copypasted):

    Crowd control incoming

    Crowd control (CC) will, among other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day."



    Mark on CC (skip to 56:48):


    PS In general, when discussing CU anything, official site --> community --> wiki --> type keyword(s) in the searchbox gives decent chance of finding out something new.
     



     W...aaagh?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,921
    CU Wiki on CC (copypasted):

    Crowd control incoming

    Crowd control (CC) will, among other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day."



    Mark on CC (skip to 56:48):


    PS In general, when discussing CU anything, official site --> community --> wiki --> type keyword(s) in the searchbox gives decent chance of finding out something new.
     



    What exactly did this tell us whether there will be hard cc? Pretty much a wishy washy declaration

    In DAOC you could be mezzed up to a minute or so......will there be anything near that.....

    BTW the original title had resists, not new either.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kyleran said:
    Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.

    They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.
    Well, there certainly isn't enough WAR fans around so going for them would be silly. However is CC something you need to be careful with in PvP and in my humble opinion it was DaoCs weakest point.

    I think they need to find some middle way that is acceptable to the DaoC fans but don't turn away new players. They do need new players, they certainly wont get 100% of the players who played DaoC, 50% is more likely and a few 100Ks of new players would certainly be a nice bonus.

    Then again, they need to make the game so that the old DaoC fans wont be dissapointed. When you use an old IP you need to let the IPs fans feel at home. WAR failed miserable to be popular with the Warhammer fans which meant they spent both money and patience (anyone who dealt with Games workshop understand the last thing) for no reason. WAR should have had it's own IP instead, the reason I didn't like it was honestly because it wasn't really Warhammer, if it would have had a different IP I probably would have given it more chanse.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Kyleran said:
    CU Wiki on CC (copypasted):

    Crowd control incoming

    Crowd control (CC) will, among other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day."



    Mark on CC (skip to 56:48):


    PS In general, when discussing CU anything, official site --> community --> wiki --> type keyword(s) in the searchbox gives decent chance of finding out something new.
     



    What exactly did this tell us whether there will be hard cc? Pretty much a wishy washy declaration

    In DAOC you could be mezzed up to a minute or so......will there be anything near that.....

    BTW the original title had resists, not new either.

    Wishy washy means buy the game and find out. Please spend your money! 
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    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • AsariashaAsariasha Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.

    By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.

    The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Asariasha said:
    Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.

    By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.

    The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
    And I still think it was over the top but taste differs.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    The way CC was done in DAoC was terrible and the reason I myself and many other never took it seriously. I'm just going out on a limb and guessing they will rectify that situation with CU.


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Asariasha said:
    Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.

    By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.

    The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
    Come on, running up into every battle spamming CC on your opponent and whoever had the largest range/best ping basically determining the outcome of the fight was not good PvP design. Their very limited version of diminishing returns also sucked allowing players to basically just rotate spells and never really suffer those limitations. It was bad.


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,921
    Dullahan said:
    The way CC was done in DAoC was terrible and the reason I myself and many other never took it seriously. I'm just going out on a limb and guessing they will rectify that situation with CU.
    I thought it was great, and key to the core combat, they will need to make one or the other of us happy, I doubt there's a middle ground between us.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The way CC was done in DAoC was terrible and the reason I myself and many other never took it seriously. I'm just going out on a limb and guessing they will rectify that situation with CU.
    I thought it was great, and key to the core combat, they will need to make one or the other of us happy, I doubt there's a middle ground between us.
    No, and I have to think that you should at least be moderatly happy while Dull never was a fan of the original IP so he shouldn't get the priority.

    If think we could get something that would work for you and me both though, I thought it was a bit too much and there you probably can make some kind of compromize but it is a huge difference between "over the top" and "terrible".

    It is always really hard to broaden the playerbase like this, you must not alienate the old fans but you should preferably still get in new blood as well. 

    I think MJ learned this the hard way from Wow, lets hope he can get it right this time. Then again, he might just aim to get the old DaoC fans and no-one else, it would still be smarter then doing another WAR.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    Dullahan said:
    The way CC was done in DAoC was terrible and the reason I myself and many other never took it seriously. I'm just going out on a limb and guessing they will rectify that situation with CU.
    I thought it was great, and key to the core combat, they will need to make one or the other of us happy, I doubt there's a middle ground between us.
    Maybe, but I have ideas of how CC can be good without it solely determining the outcome. The first and most important thing is diminishing returns and having each form of CC subject to the penalties of other CC. Any time a player is CC'd they should get a debuff that leaves them temporarily immune to CC. After that immunity, that debuff should reduce the duration (by at least half) of any CC for the next minute or so.

    The second thing is duration of CC. You should not be able to CC someone with a single spell for too long. Anything over ~20 seconds is borderline stupid.

    Third, AoE CC should be very limited, either by way of being very costly mana wise, or long cool downs. Personally I think friendly fire is another great way of balancing AE spells.

    Fourth, players need more ways to dispel negative affects. In DAoC we spent waay waaaay too much time helplessly standing around hoping that special someone might be able to dispel our CC.

    Last, resists should play a large part in CC. In EQ, you had the option of going all out hp or dps gear and relying on pumice or other players to dispel (or hit you) to break CC. However, you also had the option of stacking resist gear to increase the chance of ignoring CC. The point is, you should have choices how you build out your character or what gear you wear in a particular scenario. It adds depth and strategy and makes PvP much less predictable.

    Basically you just need to make CC something you can counter, something that requires every player to respond to accordingly, not just something that 1 or 2 classes has the ability to counter.


  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    Kyleran said:
    CU Wiki on CC (copypasted):

    Crowd control incoming

    Crowd control (CC) will, among other things, give more importance to smaller but well coordinated teams. As Mark Jacobs explained, "There will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day."



    Mark on CC (skip to 56:48):


    PS In general, when discussing CU anything, official site --> community --> wiki --> type keyword(s) in the searchbox gives decent chance of finding out something new.
     



    What exactly did this tell us whether there will be hard cc? Pretty much a wishy washy declaration

    In DAOC you could be mezzed up to a minute or so......will there be anything near that.....
    Actually the copypasted part was unnecessary to answer your CC question, it's simple. You can, just in case, re-read and re-watch the material carefully: DAoC-like CC will be, at least, toned down in CU; Furthermore, it seems to me that it will be toned down significantly.

    Kyleran said:
    Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.

    They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.
    As @Loke666 already noted, there is simply not enough WAR fans around to consider this as a serious remark =)

     W...aaagh?
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,541
    Dullahan said:
    The way CC was done in DAoC was terrible and the reason I myself and many other never took it seriously. I'm just going out on a limb and guessing they will rectify that situation with CU.
    LOL.  This is why your dream game is Pantheon.

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  • AsariashaAsariasha Member UncommonPosts: 252
    edited December 2015
    Dullahan said:
    Asariasha said:
    Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.

    By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.

    The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
    Come on, running up into every battle spamming CC on your opponent and whoever had the largest range/best ping basically determining the outcome of the fight was not good PvP design. Their very limited version of diminishing returns also sucked allowing players to basically just rotate spells and never really suffer those limitations. It was bad.
    Sorry, but then it seems to me that you never played DAoC RvR using all available possibilities. Spamming CC did not determine the outcome of a battle. The outcome of a battle actually was determined by how good your group was at managing ressources, including realm abilities as ressources, and utilizing game mechanics AFTER the inc and first CC.

    In our alliance a CC classplaying player simply spamming crowd control would have been flamed for doing so, because it is a waste of resources. Why? Because both, primary and secondary CC classes had to do more important things such as assist healing, dealing damage or counter crowd control spells.

    But to agree at least a bit ... it took some time until enough crowd control countering abilities were available, immunity mechanics were revamped and realm abilities were more frequently available on shorter timers.
  • AsariashaAsariasha Member UncommonPosts: 252
    Loke666 said:
    Asariasha said:
    Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.

    By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.

    The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
    And I still think it was over the top but taste differs.
    In the beginning, yes. Later on Mythic implemented several counters to crowd control effects. But you're of course right. Taste differs.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,921
    At the end of the day Mark will implement his vision of CC and we will have to see if its something that meshes well with the overall combat expereience.

    And I'll have to decide if its a game I'll be playing.

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  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,098
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.

    They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.
    Disagree. You are part of a very small hardcore crowd that played Daoc. 99% of the population of players did not run 8 man groups. You 8 man group people were loathed by most as elitist non-team players. Most did not care about the war at hand, only themselves. Many refused to even communicate with the leaders on the field. And I disagree, 8 people should not be able to defeat an army. You few who did it may have had fun, but 8 man groups were bad for Daoc.
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