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Wildstar took 9 years to make. Why is everyone so doom and gloom for EQN?

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  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,066

    That's such a sad statistic, someone spent 9 years developing a game that really just copied what was happening 9 years ago with Pixar character models and telegraphing combat.

    Can you imagine if they had spent 9 years developing something innovative for MMO's?  It would have been spectacular because they are clearly a very talented bunch of programmers.

  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    goboygo said:

    That's such a sad statistic, someone spent 9 years developing a game that really just copied what was happening 9 years ago with Pixar character models and telegraphing combat.

    Can you imagine if they had spent 9 years developing something innovative for MMO's?  It would have been spectacular because they are clearly a very talented bunch of programmers.

    All it needs is a good idea. Talented programmers will code the game. But concept by people who made the original massive multiplayer online rpg can turn the tide in this market. Escp one that lacks any future as the mmorpg does.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,493
    Wildstar was a great example OP....Development time only correlates to the size of the team and experience. What other titles did WS dev team have under their belt?
  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    So you finally get a glimpse of a developement process for a game. And pretty much, for the sake of the game they are making they are not showing you anything anymore. Why are people convincing others that this will never see light of day basing this on their own opinion? Yesterday EQNext vaporware was uttered by a news site. Is it popular gossip to ruin a game like you guys did here? Seriously tired and sick of this.
    Smedley (SOE) was involved. Smedley = MMO Doom, The Destroyer of Games.

    SOE went out of business, taken over.

    Majority of SOE staff working on EQN fired.

    Updates about the game went from 100% to 10% to no news.



    So yeah, this is a recipe for succes.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • StormsoneStormsone Member UncommonPosts: 83
    edited December 2015
    If its not "vaporware" its the game sucks. Ok stick to one topic trolls.
    Not trolls, haters. To haters all mmos they don't like are vaporware and crap(yes both, its illogical but that is the way they roll) and if you say differently your a "naive fanboy".
    Personally I hope this game success even if the combat and graphics are a major turn off to me personally.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    edited December 2015
    If people hate the company. They will compare it to every game out there. Despite the fanbase. Im not worried about what people say about my game. I will just play it. But i know this is the future. True multi-classing has split the timeline. It broke the medium of WoW and mmorpg fanatics should note that in this little game called EverquestNext...

    50% of our jobs are in the service industry. So american's are obsessed with customer service. In open developement we have to be catered to. Them going silent doesn't mean the game won't release. I'm convinced it is a Marketing strategy by SOE/Daybreak. They want to entice you enough just so you don't get bored watching the same gameplay videos over and over. I mean, if im wrong, EQNext is already in playable form why haven't they released gameplay videos when they know they could? Why does Landmark have combat if its a still a supposed concept?? They have the game im convinced and they are continually making it but not before our eyes.

    All the negativity for this is because, the silent majority, choose to remain silent then you have this influx of trolls who just have to talk and they repeat themselves until it spreads around. Not sure if there's a pyschological study about this stuff but it happens quite often when there is no control of conversation and people just talk anyway they want about the topic. EQN and vaporware should not be in a headline of a popular podcast of a popular website (massivelyOP). It is the community's fault for helping this game lower its launch. 
    EQN isn't a game yet, probably should keep that in mind before devoting your life to it.

    If going silent is a marketing strat, it is pretty poor. Who cares anymore?

    When almost every other upcoming/current mmo has community involvment and dev communication with fans, going silent doesn't seem very smart.

    They aren't enticing anyone, unless year old videos of tech demos keep you going.

    Don't want to make fans bored with the same stuff? Maybe keep fans updated with a variety of content, much of which takes very little effort.

    Very good question as to why they haven't shown anything in a year.

    You are free to convince yourself all you want, doesn't make it a reality.

    People voicing their concerns/opinions aren't trolling. Making one thread after another without much context, asking for conversation, and then white knighting every response on the other hand...

    I pretty sure I've posted the most comments about EQN out of anyone, between this site and Reddit. I want the game to do well, doesn't mean I live in la la land and ignore what is right in front of our eyes or lack there of.

    If you have a problem with a site talking negatively, maybe take your concerns to that site. Expecting others to jump on the "there's no way the game can fail because it's the future and I can see it in my imagination" train, isn't going to get you far on internet forums.

    None of us can predict the future, game might be great or not. You aren't going to convince anyone either way. At this point, people believe what they want and trying to prove your opinion is pointless. Until there is actual proof from the company itself, will just be back and forth meaningless bickering.

    Don't like the negativity or opinions of ~20-50 people on the internet that are insignificant overall? Don't read or converse with them.

    You could always head over to the official forums...er wait.
  • SlothnChunkSlothnChunk Member UncommonPosts: 788
    Saerain said:
    Because SOE (The company that was actually working on the game) was bankrupt.
    Bought for "peanuts" by investment firm thats main business is Oil Rigs and dismantling bankrupt companies ( no previous experience in games or nothing even close ).
    Nope. No available evidence of SOE having been bankrupt that I can find. Not even rumor. Other than that Microaxis algorithm showing that Sony itself is likely to go bankrupt in a few years. Might explain their slew of cost-cutting measures lately, I suppose, but I digress...

    Columbus Nova's main business is software. They bought the game development company Harmonix in 2010. All other acquisitions are also software companies. None, as far as I can tell, have been bankrupt and/or dismantled.

    Columbus Nova's parent company is a Russian conglomerate that, yes, has a lot of other business in telecom, energy, and nanotechnology. The Japanese conglomerate Daybreak just came from sits in similar sectors. I understand Sony Corporation has also made a significant name in gaming, to understate tremendously, but it seems fair to bear in mind that for the PC and MMOs that name was SOE. Without it, the subsidiary Sony Computer Entertainment is a console company.

    As a related side-note, I point out that it's only since being bought by Columbus Nova that Harmonix has been developing non-console-exclusive titles. They're even working in VR now.

    The company than went on and fired every leading personnel. Artist, game designer, programmers (basically 90% of the team) and left only second rate and "green" low pay personnel.
    Nope. We only know about five layoffs from the EQN team. A fundraiser, a couple of other upper management, a writer (who had not much left to do), and one programmer. This from the largest team at the company. I think you're confusing it with other teams. EQ and EQ2 were certainly gutted.

    There may well have been much more we don't know about, but that is no kind of excuse to just make shit up like "basically 90% of the team".

    And discontinued contract with story bricks, technology that was essential for what EQ:N tried to do.
    Nope. Daybreak was not licensing technology from StoryBricks, it was a company doing work in collaboration with Daybreak to create their own AI platform. After some time, it became Daybreak's platform. That's how those relationships work.

    Since this happened we didnt see even a slightest piece of evidence of any progress in EQ:N
    Nope. There's been a damned hour-long Twitch stream every week for the last year and a half. Currently on hiatus due to the move to the new studio.

    It's understandable that you might find the first few years of game development boring. Most non-game developers do. That's why we usually don't see anything for those years.
    You left out SOE never actually made money for Sony.  Sony kept writing it off hoping for the next big thing.  There is no indication the investment firm is willing to invest anywhere close to what Sony was spending.  Daybreak has done a lot of cutting back while introducing very little across the board.

    Daybreak fired key people involve with Everquest next including the creative minds behind the project.  That's the opposite of investing; that's cutting back.

    The Twitch videos were never more than people playing Landmark (and the last one of those was two months ago).  Landmark was one of those ideas what was neat in theory and on paper, but didn't work that well in practice.  And it's arguable what if anything is actually used from Landmark in developing any new MMO.


  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,714
    OP, why do you think it is irrational? They came out with all of this great stuff advertising the game, showing it off, bragging about how great it would be........so they could sell landmark alpha packs for $100. Then everyone learned Landmark sucked and we haven't heard a peep about development since. My question is,why would anyone not think this game may be vaporware?
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,351
    Albatroes said:
    Wildstar was a great example OP....Development time only correlates to the size of the team and experience. What other titles did WS dev team have under their belt?
    Carabine Studio was created by 17 (ex)Blizzard developers that worked on WoW. The team expanded to add more people overtime, of course.
    Daybreak fired key people involve with Everquest next including the creative minds behind the project.  That's the opposite of investing; that's cutting back.

    The lead designers/directors (Steve Klug, Darrin McPherson, Rosie Rappaport and Micheal Mann) and the lead producer who is in charge of everything (Terry Michaels) were not fired.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    edited December 2015
    Allein said:
    If people hate the company. They will compare it to every game out there. Despite the fanbase. Im not worried about what people say about my game. I will just play it. But i know this is the future. True multi-classing has split the timeline. It broke the medium of WoW and mmorpg fanatics should note that in this little game called EverquestNext...

    50% of our jobs are in the service industry. So american's are obsessed with customer service. In open developement we have to be catered to. Them going silent doesn't mean the game won't release. I'm convinced it is a Marketing strategy by SOE/Daybreak. They want to entice you enough just so you don't get bored watching the same gameplay videos over and over. I mean, if im wrong, EQNext is already in playable form why haven't they released gameplay videos when they know they could? Why does Landmark have combat if its a still a supposed concept?? They have the game im convinced and they are continually making it but not before our eyes.

    All the negativity for this is because, the silent majority, choose to remain silent then you have this influx of trolls who just have to talk and they repeat themselves until it spreads around. Not sure if there's a pyschological study about this stuff but it happens quite often when there is no control of conversation and people just talk anyway they want about the topic. EQN and vaporware should not be in a headline of a popular podcast of a popular website (massivelyOP). It is the community's fault for helping this game lower its launch. 
    EQN isn't a game yet, probably should keep that in mind before devoting your life to it.

    If going silent is a marketing strat, it is pretty poor. Who cares anymore?

    When almost every other upcoming/current mmo has community involvment and dev communication with fans, going silent doesn't seem very smart.

    They aren't enticing anyone, unless year old videos of tech demos keep you going.

    Don't want to make fans bored with the same stuff? Maybe keep fans updated with a variety of content, much of which takes very little effort.

    Very good question as to why they haven't shown anything in a year.

    You are free to convince yourself all you want, doesn't make it a reality.

    People voicing their concerns/opinions aren't trolling. Making one thread after another without much context, asking for conversation, and then white knighting every response on the other hand...

    I pretty sure I've posted the most comments about EQN out of anyone, between this site and Reddit. I want the game to do well, doesn't mean I live in la la land and ignore what is right in front of our eyes or lack there of.

    If you have a problem with a site talking negatively, maybe take your concerns to that site. Expecting others to jump on the "there's no way the game can fail because it's the future and I can see it in my imagination" train, isn't going to get you far on internet forums.

    None of us can predict the future, game might be great or not. You aren't going to convince anyone either way. At this point, people believe what they want and trying to prove your opinion is pointless. Until there is actual proof from the company itself, will just be back and forth meaningless bickering.

    Don't like the negativity or opinions of ~20-50 people on the internet that are insignificant overall? Don't read or converse with them.

    You could always head over to the official forums...er wait.
    It's a black box strategy and its something you might not agree with but you don't speak for everyone. 

    If DBG shows a pre-alpha unpolished crap its on them. They lose a lot of hype and most likely won't get that back. Look what happened with Elder Scrolls.

    There's being patient, then theres being disgruntled. I think you chose Crowfall because you were slighted by this game. Which is all up to you but don't take it out on people who happen to be excited about this game.
    Post edited by SyndromofaDown on
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    edited December 2015
    Allein said:
    It's a black box strategy and its something you might not agree with but you don't speak for everyone. 

    If DBG shows a pre-alpha unpolished crap its on them. They lose a lot of hype and most likely won't get that back. Look what happened with Elder Scrolls.

    There's being patient, then theres being disgruntled. I think you chose Crowfall because you were slighted by this game. Which is all up to you but don't take it out on this game.
    "They lose a lot of hype and most likely won't get that back"????

    As if...............

    Are you even current on the events of this past year? 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    If everyone who was on the intial hype train stopped following they lost 40k customers. Which is nothing. They would want to start another hype train later with more current graphics and gameplay videos. 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    If everyone who was on the intial hype train stopped following they lost 40k customers. Which is nothing. They would want to start another hype train later with more current graphics and gameplay videos. 
    It would be wiser to show something that wouldn't haunt the game for the rest of the developement time and launch. They are the ones doing it and they are more experienced at marketing than you and me.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    If everyone who was on the intial hype train stopped following they lost 40k customers. Which is nothing. They would want to start another hype train later with more current graphics and gameplay videos. 
    It would be wiser to show something that wouldn't haunt the game for the rest of the developement time and launch. They are the ones doing it and they are more experienced at marketing than you and me.
    My point is, I don't think overall expectations on this game could actually get any lower. I don't think they have anything to hype left. Not to be all negative, there is a silver lining to this cloud. If expectations really are low, they shouldn't have too much difficulty exceeding them.
  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492
    So you finally get a glimpse of a developement process for a game. And pretty much, for the sake of the game they are making they are not showing you anything anymore. Why are people convincing others that this will never see light of day basing this on their own opinion? Yesterday EQNext vaporware was uttered by a news site. Is it popular gossip to ruin a game like you guys did here? Seriously tired and sick of this.
    Ok, so it took 9 years to make Wildstar and it is a mess.  Most likely it should not have even been released, so using this thought then the length to make EQ-Next points to it either releasing and not being worth the wait or not releasing at all.
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325


    It makes me question to why they haven't put out any updates. But they are doing it for the best interests of them. It's pretty obvious its a black box strategy. Its what it is for them. If something they planned didnt work out for them than that's what they are doing to make it work out in their favor. Again, i dont question what they are doing, since i am currently playing other games so it doesn't make a difference to me. Just sad if it doesn't release then ill probably be playing pantheon for the 5 months of entertainment ill likely get after reaching level cap :expressionless: 
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Your argument is based on one company's development time for a game.  Are you saying all companies are alike?  Are you saying all games take the same amount of time to make?  Its like saying one girl has big boobs so all girls should have big boobs.  Basically your sample size is too small to make any kind of educated guess on the average development time of a AAA MMO.  If your data is bad, the results you get are most likely bad.



    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    edited December 2015
    It's a black box strategy and its something you might not agree with but you don't speak for everyone. 

    If DBG shows a pre-alpha unpolished crap its on them. They lose a lot of hype and most likely won't get that back. Look what happened with Elder Scrolls.

    There's being patient, then theres being disgruntled. I think you chose Crowfall because you were slighted by this game. Which is all up to you but don't take it out on people who happen to be excited about this game.
    Obviously I don't speak for everyone, not even the majority. I'm still hopeful while the "majority" of people that waste their time on EQN at all are fairly negative without hope or to the point they want it to do bad.

    Black box is fine, but it the old way of doing things and why SOE wasn't doing it for the first year or so.

    Community involvement is what will result in hopefully better games or at least ones that cater to some folks instead of no one. Almost every upcoming game has a team behind it that at least pretends to listen to fans and you can see the fans eating it up. Same for EQN/LM at the start.

    Even if they decided to cut off communication and wait until they let the dev team get more done, they went about it very poorly and basically just stopped one day without explanation.

    ESO is doing fairly well it looks like, so not sure what you mean. EQN can only hope to do that well at this point.

    I "chose" Crowfall because the devs at least try to make it seem like fans matter. In the end it's their game and it will end up how they want. I also enjoy a challenging, dynamic experience and unfortunately only PVP can bring that currently. EQN's AI sounded like the answer for PVE, but it is a no show.

    Crowfall has received a lot of negative feedback. Did the devs close up show and go home to cry in their pillows? Nope. Just how things go.

    I'll be playing in the Pre-Alpha tonight and having a fun time in a far from polished/finished game.

    Releasing unpolished screens, videos, demos, whatever, isn't going to sink the ship. Releasing a game without player feedback that isn't fun will. So many game have gone this route with NDAs and black boxes and look what happens. Game full of people for a month or two and then.....

    I'm also interested in Chronicles of Elyria, Camelot Unchained, and even Albion even though I don't like click to move. All of which "care" and listen to the fans.

    As I said, I've probably put the most time (wasted it seems) into talking about EQN out of everyone. I want the game to do well, but not fooling myself.

    Not sure how I'm taking it out on people, but disagreeing with someone else's opinion is what happens when it is put online.


  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Talonsin said:
    Your argument is based on one company's development time for a game.  Are you saying all companies are alike?  Are you saying all games take the same amount of time to make?  Its like saying one girl has big boobs so all girls should have big boobs.  Basically your sample size is too small to make any kind of educated guess on the average development time of a AAA MMO.  If your data is bad, the results you get are most likely bad.



    Noone knows what goes on in a developemt team here. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt as to if i think the game will release or its not vaporware status. They have updated i think the last update was August saying they are working on testing combat internally and then they went silent. In that time they still put out workshop videos until the last month or so. Then they shut down the forums. They are too busy working on this game and making this dream alive. I think the original Everquest came out with 2 alpha videos then had a beta in a span of 3 years. This is really nothing in the scope of things.
  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,088
    Noone knows what goes on in a developemt team here. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt as to if i think the game will release or its not vaporware status.
    I was out grocery shopping the other week and saw Terry Michaels and Darrin McPherson going to grab something to eat at a local spot, I know what the dev team is doing.  =)

    I'm also giving the benefit of the doubt, but there's that and then there's putting blinders on. Game still has a future and could be great, but little evidence coming out to show it.

    LM as a whole hasn't changed much still launch. Over 2 years and little public proof that they can actually build something that isn't just another game. They've shown lots of features and tech, but nothing that is really surprising at this point.


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Noone knows what goes on in a developemt team here. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt as to if i think the game will release or its not vaporware status. They have updated i think the last update was August saying they are working on testing combat internally and then they went silent. In that time they still put out workshop videos until the last month or so. Then they shut down the forums. They are too busy working on this game and making this dream alive. I think the original Everquest came out with 2 alpha videos then had a beta in a span of 3 years. This is really nothing in the scope of things.
    My point is, your initial inference is wrong and you cant base one games development time on another.  You also make some points in your arguments that are unsupported by any kind of facts, for example:

    1. They are too busy working on this game and making this dream alive

    How do you know this?  Is it possible they are too busy with other projects and have put this game on hold?  We know the studio has had staff reductions.  Without facts, we dont honestly know.

    2. Im giving them the benefit of the doubt as to if i think the game will release or its not vaporware status.

    That is awesome!  I totally believe that you believe the game will come out and be great but at the same time I also believe that others have a right based on the current information to not believe the game will come out.  We only know the information we know and only insiders know most of the story so we all make inferences.  Some will turn out to be wrong because they are based on false or a lack of information while others will prove to be right.  If you want others to move to your side of an argument, you have to give them facts the support it.

    Personally I believe the game is still being worked on but I have no idea the amount of staff that are still assigned to it.  I believe SOE was purchased based on the potential of EQN so I doubt it will not be released however, I think the new company found out after the sale that the numbers SOE gave them were not really accurate and the new company is making changes to correct that before moving forward with EQN.  But...  I dont have much actual fact to support this other than my own business experience and watching how other acquisitions panned out so my opinion is just as weak as the next guys.

    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member RarePosts: 2,775
    So you finally get a glimpse of a developement process for a game. And pretty much, for the sake of the game they are making they are not showing you anything anymore. Why are people convincing others that this will never see light of day basing this on their own opinion? Yesterday EQNext vaporware was uttered by a news site. Is it popular gossip to ruin a game like you guys did here? Seriously tired and sick of this.
    9 years to make that crap? damn now if I hoped for this game, would be worried
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  • MoiraeMoirae Member RarePosts: 3,318
    Trolling, fear mongering, SOE haters. Take your pick. There are STILL people angry over SWG and it's been years. 
  • SyndromofaDownSyndromofaDown Member UncommonPosts: 325
    Moirae said:
    Trolling, fear mongering, SOE haters. Take your pick. There are STILL people angry over SWG and it's been years. 
    It's somewhat under control. At least here. Reddit seems to be a good spot where i get my info. They release a video that's not up to par they screwed up now. I doubled down, i expect high. I think they could pull it off...
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,714
    Moirae said:
    Trolling, fear mongering, SOE haters. Take your pick. There are STILL people angry over SWG and it's been years. 
    Yea, everyone who disagrees with you is trolling, fear mongering, or haters. If it makes you feel better....
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
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