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Old school communities weren't all that great.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,704
    Ghavrigg said:
    Games have always had jerks, but a lot of it was toned down back in the day because there weren't as many solo options available, and shit was tough, long and grindy, just hours and hours sitting in one spot. People had to use communication in order to make the time go faster, and had to work together if they wanted to do anything at all, so there appeared to be more of a community because of it.


    Not to mention that there was no cross server tech yet available, so if you were an asshole all the time, people wouldn't tolerate it and you'd find it harder and harder to get groups and such. Since it took so long to level (months, years) people weren't so readily willing to just start fresh, either, so being nice was the best option.

    Would you people please stop scapegoating soloers for the woes of MMO problems.  Most of those soloing in EQ were Druids, the ones who would constantly give ports and buffs to those who asked.  who would run by in their solo pursuits and see someone in trouble and hand out drive by heals and buffs without sticking around for a thank you.  This constant attacking of soloers and casuals in general is as bogus as the attacks against old school communities that are being discussed in this topic.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,704
    One of the nicest communities I have ever experienced was in Dark Age of Camelot.  Funny that a PvP oriented game had some of the nicest people I have had the pleasure to meet.  EQ had a lot of good people, but DAoC felt much friendlier.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,704
    Black listing didn't work. Very very few people  paid any attention to that.  Almost no one knew about websites where characters were posted and fewer went to them.  People  that were considered jerks still got groups and epics proving  that rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle. 

    That is not completely true.  I remember many conversations at East Commons tunnel about jerk players and people such as myself took note of that.  In fact, at one point, I would compile my own list of jerks to avoid thanks to /ooc chat and my own experiences.  There were consequences, especially if you wanted to raid.

    image
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Ghavrigg said:
    Games have always had jerks, but a lot of it was toned down back in the day because there weren't as many solo options available, and shit was tough, long and grindy, just hours and hours sitting in one spot. People had to use communication in order to make the time go faster, and had to work together if they wanted to do anything at all, so there appeared to be more of a community because of it.


    Not to mention that there was no cross server tech yet available, so if you were an asshole all the time, people wouldn't tolerate it and you'd find it harder and harder to get groups and such. Since it took so long to level (months, years) people weren't so readily willing to just start fresh, either, so being nice was the best option.

    Would you people please stop scapegoating soloers for the woes of MMO problems.  Most of those soloing in EQ were Druids, the ones who would constantly give ports and buffs to those who asked.  who would run by in their solo pursuits and see someone in trouble and hand out drive by heals and buffs without sticking around for a thank you.  This constant attacking of soloers and casuals in general is as bogus as the attacks against old school communities that are being discussed in this topic.
    That is true.

    I was a soloer in UO and EQ, but I enjoyed the interaction with people in the world.  Interaction doesn't have to be in the form of combat.  It can be gatherings of players to trade, giving/selling buffs/ports, helping/hindering someone, sharing/hording camp spots, deciding on a loot system, coming up with different group combat mechanics other than the trinity with some imagination, etc.  The layout also encouraged you to group on occasion.  The games felt more like a real world to me.  Part of that was the mechanics which encouraged a more realistic world and part was the community.  Some people will argue that realistic is not good and they are right in some cases, but it's definitely more fun for me if there are lots of different things going on that weren't programmed into the game.  Things that would more closely mimic a real adventure.  This is again all dependent on the player base.  EQ and UO feel pretty boring when there are no people around in the world.  When I went to visit old zones in EQ in recent times they were completely empty and that made them fairly boring and lifeless even with the nostalgia factor. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099

    MMORPG's have lost their souls.  They're refined to the point of being sterile games only.  The 1st generation games were social and procedural experiments.  All of the data mining and numbers have left a corpse of a genre where every game is routine to maximize generic appeal to a broad audience.  
    Does it matter if they are more fun?

    If they are not more fun to YOU .. it just mean that devs no longer want to cater to your preferences. Is making games fun for a broad audience "lost their souls".

    What are "souls" of games anyway? Do devs have to be niche and make no money to have a soul?

    Its arguable that they're not more fun and its dead genre because of the the way their made.  AAA development in the West is non existent arguably because of the general oversaturated formula. 
  • rammur65rammur65 Member UncommonPosts: 107
    So they are dead because of a vocal entiled minority? i think not ive been playing mmos since the days of the realm and meridian 59 pretty much played them all till now. MMO's are not intended for jumpers plain and simple if your one of them people who hops mmo to mmo because they are new you are playin them wrong and you are not a fan of any of them.Find one and stick with it.
  • HarafnirHarafnir Member UncommonPosts: 1,350
    edited December 2015
    Its funny. Cooperation was key in the old games. If you did not cooperate, if you destroyed for other players, your name would be spread across a server in  a day, everyone would put you on ignore, and you would have to play alone, and forget all about dungeons and group oriented play. The PvE in the old days were vastly, vastly superior because your actions had consequenses. So people behaved. If they wanted to misbehave, they went for PvP. AO, SWG, UO, EQ, I met a bad player once... then never saw him again. I saw people throw away their high level character and start from scratch because they messed up their reputation, and after... they REALLY did their best to  behave.
    Today? Today you have a better chance to be kicked from a group if you mention someone is destroying the group play, than the one actually destroying it.So, people AFK in a dungeron for 30 minutes, roll Need on everything and are as abusing as they want... That is better?

    I do not think so. If someone say it was bad before.... they probable started in the WoW era and not a second before that.

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,826
    Ghavrigg said:
    Games have always had jerks, but a lot of it was toned down back in the day because there weren't as many solo options available, and shit was tough, long and grindy, just hours and hours sitting in one spot. People had to use communication in order to make the time go faster, and had to work together if they wanted to do anything at all, so there appeared to be more of a community because of it.


    Not to mention that there was no cross server tech yet available, so if you were an asshole all the time, people wouldn't tolerate it and you'd find it harder and harder to get groups and such. Since it took so long to level (months, years) people weren't so readily willing to just start fresh, either, so being nice was the best option.

    Would you people please stop scapegoating soloers for the woes of MMO problems.  Most of those soloing in EQ were Druids, the ones who would constantly give ports and buffs to those who asked.  who would run by in their solo pursuits and see someone in trouble and hand out drive by heals and buffs without sticking around for a thank you.  This constant attacking of soloers and casuals in general is as bogus as the attacks against old school communities that are being discussed in this topic.
    I think there needs to be a distinction drawn here. To some degree, we are all soloers and we are all groupers depending on the situation and what our preferences were from session to session. The issue, at least as I see it, is not about the players and their preference. It's about the mechanics that have been put into the games to speed things up.

    Here's the debate. QOL mechanics vs. not. IMO, it's these very mechanics that took certain needs and responsibilities away from players to facilitate ease of grouping. But these individual quality improvements, came at the cost of the quality of the community. Players don't need to make social connections in the games anymore. They just click a button and it's done for them. It has bred anonymity into the games and that has killed the community.

    As I said before, I used to play games where you knew everyone on your servers. Or at least you knew who they were. 
  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 623
    MMORPG's have lost their souls.  They're refined to the point of being sterile games only.  The 1st generation games were social and procedural experiments.  All of the data mining and numbers have left a corpse of a genre where every game is routine to maximize generic appeal to a broad audience.  
    They are (and were) designed products, tailored to specific audiences.

    FOR YOU games are worse now because back then you were smack middle of the quite specific main target demographic and almost every big MMO catered to your taste to a certain extent.
     
    Now the market has broadened by a lot and most games don't cater to your taste at all. In fact they cater to people with very very different tastes than yours.

    Also, the market is much more saturated now, thus products need to push both marketing and monetization much harder to be successful. (budgets also increased by a lot, making this issue even worse)
    This ofcourse influences what targets get chosen and how games are designed.
    Simply put, what worked then, wouldn't now.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Ghavrigg said:
    Games have always had jerks, but a lot of it was toned down back in the day because there weren't as many solo options available, and shit was tough, long and grindy, just hours and hours sitting in one spot. People had to use communication in order to make the time go faster, and had to work together if they wanted to do anything at all, so there appeared to be more of a community because of it.


    Not to mention that there was no cross server tech yet available, so if you were an asshole all the time, people wouldn't tolerate it and you'd find it harder and harder to get groups and such. Since it took so long to level (months, years) people weren't so readily willing to just start fresh, either, so being nice was the best option.

    Would you people please stop scapegoating soloers for the woes of MMO problems.  Most of those soloing in EQ were Druids, the ones who would constantly give ports and buffs to those who asked.  who would run by in their solo pursuits and see someone in trouble and hand out drive by heals and buffs without sticking around for a thank you.  This constant attacking of soloers and casuals in general is as bogus as the attacks against old school communities that are being discussed in this topic.
    I think there needs to be a distinction drawn here. To some degree, we are all soloers and we are all groupers depending on the situation and what our preferences were from session to session. The issue, at least as I see it, is not about the players and their preference. It's about the mechanics that have been put into the games to speed things up.

    Here's the debate. QOL mechanics vs. not. IMO, it's these very mechanics that took certain needs and responsibilities away from players to facilitate ease of grouping. But these individual quality improvements, came at the cost of the quality of the community. Players don't need to make social connections in the games anymore. They just click a button and it's done for them. It has bred anonymity into the games and that has killed the community.

    As I said before, I used to play games where you knew everyone on your servers. Or at least you knew who they were. 
    I would generally agree.

    There are a lot of new tools for ease of use that make things less interesting for myself.  That combined with instances and lack of potential for players to impact each other in anyway really kills it for me.  Of course there are other issues as well like classes being far more generic and less unique.  I liked that not all classes could solo in old MMOs.  Some were good for certain things and others for other things.
  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,398
    One of the nicest communities I have ever experienced was in Dark Age of Camelot.  Funny that a PvP oriented game had some of the nicest people I have had the pleasure to meet.  EQ had a lot of good people, but DAoC felt much friendlier.

    What you say is a funny to me. When I joined DAoC in its first month of release (my first MMO, but I was following the development of lots of them back then) people called the EQ players who jumped to the game the EQSnob because some of them snubbed everyone not coming from EQ.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    There were jerks in the games but they sort of congregated and kept to each other. The FFXI server I was on had a shell or two full of jerks.

    The community wasn't purely great, but it was great. The jerks weren't part of the community. Hell, they didn't even want to be.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    DMKano said:
    There is no objective way to quantify a game "community" as it largely depends on one's opinion based on whatever server and point in time events.

    The same games often have different communities on different servers.

    Also players that play within their own established guilda will often say awesome community as they are exclusively playing with guildies they've known for years already.


    Accurate statements.

    It's amazing how often insular little elitist cliques are "great" communities.
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,130
    Communities are made from people working together. Modern mmos are solo games so thats why they dont have communities like the older games.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    MMORPG's have lost their souls.  They're refined to the point of being sterile games only.  The 1st generation games were social and procedural experiments.  All of the data mining and numbers have left a corpse of a genre where every game is routine to maximize generic appeal to a broad audience.  
    Does it matter if they are more fun?

    If they are not more fun to YOU .. it just mean that devs no longer want to cater to your preferences. Is making games fun for a broad audience "lost their souls".

    What are "souls" of games anyway? Do devs have to be niche and make no money to have a soul?

    Its arguable that they're not more fun and its dead genre because of the the way their made.  AAA development in the West is non existent arguably because of the general oversaturated formula. 
    Fun is subjective. The fact that the MMO market is growing seems to indicate that they are more fun to many .. may be not you.

    What are you talking about? May be AAA development of MMORPGs are non-existent in the west .. but there are plenty of MMO development, such as world of warship.

    And anyone want to bet Overwatch is going to be classify as a MMO if it is a big success? (If Destiny qualifies, i bet Overwatch will too). 
  • shalissarshalissar Member UncommonPosts: 509
    They weren't. And, even worse, they were "clique-y". Which some people seem to have a total hard on for, but I don't. Yes, jerks were more accountable for their actions, but honest people got thrown under the bus as well. Let's not forget that it's okay to be a dick as long as you're popular.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Offering purely anecdotal evidence:

    My time with DAoC did seem to result in much better overall interactions with my fellow players.  There were idiots, of course, but every guild I was in (3-4) over my time in the game was full of generally well-adjusted adults, especially considering the anonymity offered online.

    I still catch up periodically with a friend I met in DAoC who no longers plays MMORPGs.  She and I met over a decade ago.  I've honestly never interacted so consistently with anyone in a "modern" MMORPG for any real length of time.  So there's something, at least.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    Black listing didn't work. Very very few people  paid any attention to that.  Almost no one knew about websites where characters were posted and fewer went to them.  People  that were considered jerks still got groups and epics proving  that rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle. 

    That is not completely true.  I remember many conversations at East Commons tunnel about jerk players and people such as myself took note of that.  In fact, at one point, I would compile my own list of jerks to avoid thanks to /ooc chat and my own experiences.  There were consequences, especially if you wanted to raid.

    Your point actually doesn't counter my own.  This was you and your circle.
    "rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle."
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972
    Black listing didn't work. Very very few people  paid any attention to that.  Almost no one knew about websites where characters were posted and fewer went to them.  People  that were considered jerks still got groups and epics proving  that rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle. 

    That is not completely true.  I remember many conversations at East Commons tunnel about jerk players and people such as myself took note of that.  In fact, at one point, I would compile my own list of jerks to avoid thanks to /ooc chat and my own experiences.  There were consequences, especially if you wanted to raid.

    Your point actually doesn't counter my own.  This was you and your circle.
    "rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle."
    From my point of view it's just your word versus his; which by the way I've read countless posts over the years which supports Vorthanions' perspective over yours and by a large margin.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • SToddySToddy Member UncommonPosts: 7
    @recore
    this
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Cecropia said:

    From my point of view it's just your word versus his; which by the way I've read countless posts over the years which supports Vorthanions' perspective over yours and by a large margin.
    and EQ lost lots of players once WoW was out ... so whatever community that it had clearly was not important for players not to jump to other games. 
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    Cecropia said:
    Black listing didn't work. Very very few people  paid any attention to that.  Almost no one knew about websites where characters were posted and fewer went to them.  People  that were considered jerks still got groups and epics proving  that rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle. 

    That is not completely true.  I remember many conversations at East Commons tunnel about jerk players and people such as myself took note of that.  In fact, at one point, I would compile my own list of jerks to avoid thanks to /ooc chat and my own experiences.  There were consequences, especially if you wanted to raid.

    Your point actually doesn't counter my own.  This was you and your circle.
    "rep actually did not  matter to the general population only to you and your circle."
    From my point of view it's just your word versus his; which by the way I've read countless posts over the years which supports Vorthanions' perspective over yours and by a large margin.

    And yet people that were considered jerks still got groups and epics.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774


    And yet people that were considered jerks still got groups and epics.
    and those who don't care about grouping can always train to grief others. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,330
    edited December 2015


    And yet people that were considered jerks still got groups and epics.
    and those who don't care about grouping can always train to grief others. 
    As it should be, multi player games should always seek to add more ways for players to "interact" with others and impact their gaming experience, for good or ill.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:


    And yet people that were considered jerks still got groups and epics.
    and those who don't care about grouping can always train to grief others. 
    As it should be, multi player games should always seek to add more ways for players to "interact" with others and impact their gaming experience, for good or ill.
    Remember that earlier account from UO, where PKers were costing the company income by driving new players away (resulting in trammeling)?

    Collision Doorway Blockers executing DOS attacks on other players?

    Not sure I'd agree with a "freedom of chaos" argument. A sane degree of restraint is necessary in even the most minimally functional society.

    I realize this is anathema to "mah phreedums!" sandbox players, but still...
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