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PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF (YOUR) GOD.....

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.


    "basic human goodness" on the internet? 
  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited December 2015
    DrDread74 said:
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.


    As long as people buy this tuff, they will keep making it.

    Complaining that the industry works this way is like complaining about bad politicians. They got voted in, by YOU. Don't vote for them for the right reasons and they will stop dominating the market.

    The politicians didn't get in by my vote. I can 100% guarantee that. And you are right though, if I do see a politician worth voting for, I will vote for him. If I see a game worth paying for, I will pay for it. But the sad truth is I don't.

    P.S. It's too bad we don't have a voting system to vote politicians out of office, and enter a replacement name. You know something to keep them on their toes and keep them to uphold their promises.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    I dont care if other people choose to fund these title, only that they don't act all surprised and upset if their donation doesn't deliver.

    The odds are very long against, with only a handful likely to be decently delivered.
    I find this post a little hypocritical. In a Star Citizen thread I read and commented on a few moments ago you took cheap derogatory pot shots at the project for continued crowdfunding, but here in the abstract you're all for it.

    So is it that you're open minded as long as you like the project? But if you don't like a project then people are stupid and the developers immoral. That's essentially doublespeak.
    Not at all, here I'm stating it is fine for players to support these titles as long as they don't complain about it if it doesn't work out, even for that other game.

    I do feel it is immoral on the developers part to continue to seek additional funding far above the stated project scope just because they can take advantage of players goodwill regardless of actual need.


    This isn't "huggy rainbow shart utopia". Players aren't doing this to cure cancer. They want to see a project made. Sometime they ask for more or a project scope grows. If players are still willing to support that then they are signalling the developer that they want it to happen. Your personal moral judgement here is out of place as it applies to others. Let people make the project they want. Don't like it or believe in it then don't fund it, but don't go shitting on developers and supporters because they're not doing it your way.

    You're stating it's okay for people to engage in this as long as they do it within the arbitrary boundaries you set.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    muffins89 said:

    ....stop buying early access and pre-release.

    it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 

    every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

    well .. i don't buy early access and pre-release.
    BUT ... for the love of your god ... stop dictating how other should buy their entertainment.
    I think KS is a colossal waste of money (so obviously i won't be giving any KS project a dime) but you don't see me trying to stop others from flushing their money down the toilet. It is their right to do so.
    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.

    Qui tacet consentit
    Except there isn't an en masse rush off of a cliff. You're not saving anyone from anything serious. At worst they lose some money. At best they help get a project off the ground they want to be a part of. If they've made a mistake by doing that then hopefully they'll learn a lesson.

    Should we save the rest of the gaming community from flushing their money down the drain on subscription rental payments? Cash Shops? Think of the children!

    I agree with Narius. Let people, in general, spend their entertainment dollars how they want to.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,038
    @muffins89 many developers use early access to gather enough funds for their project. If they don't sell early access they won't be able to finish their project. There will be no "until the game is finished". People are getting into early access stages either to support the project they love or because they don't have a good alternative to play (not hate it too much). It's not like publisher funded released products are giving them a variety of perfect games to play. 

    That's some lame reasoning right there. Back in the day developers had to be clever and try hard to release something truly great. And now you are saying that instead of them finding ways around things, working extra hours and truly pushing for what they want they can just go beg for money. That's not the answer. 
  • PalaPala Member UncommonPosts: 313
    And yet the best games in 2015 were mostly KS funded, go figure.
  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    madazz said:
    That's some lame reasoning right there. Back in the day developers had to be clever and try hard to release something truly great. And now you are saying that instead of them finding ways around things, working extra hours and truly pushing for what they want they can just go beg for money. That's not the answer. 
    Unless you're filthy rich, you can't make anything without begging for money. Maybe now they just prefer to beg money from their potential future customers and current fans instead of publishers and banks for obvious reasons. 
    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Pala said:
    And yet the best games in 2015 were mostly KS funded, go figure.
    "best" is subjective.

    All the best games for me in 2015 are NOT KS funded. Go figure. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    madazz said:


    That's some lame reasoning right there. Back in the day developers had to be clever and try hard to release something truly great. And now you are saying that instead of them finding ways around things, working extra hours and truly pushing for what they want they can just go beg for money. That's not the answer. 
    The answer to what?

    It is a free market .. if they want to beg, let them beg. If there are gullible people who respond to begging, let them flush their money down the toilet. They may even learn a thing or two.

    No one says you need to spend a dime just because others are begging. It does not concern you, or me. 
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.

    Qui tacet consentit
    Cliff-jumping has objectively negative consequences.

    Paid early access does not (not any more than any B2P system where you pay money prior to experiencing gameplay.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    Axehilt said:
    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.

    Qui tacet consentit
    Cliff-jumping has objectively negative consequences.

    Paid early access does not (not any more than any B2P system where you pay money prior to experiencing gameplay.)
    I personally choose not to pay for early access, simply because I don't have enough time for all the developers on Steam (or elsewhere) that have so many great ideas if I would just come along for the ride. Get back to me when you have an experience you are presenting with confidence.

    However, when I made this comment I was actually considering more the many, many scams that have occurred in the wild west of crowd funding.  I won't bother listing them here.

    Torval said:
    muffins89 said:

    ....stop buying early access and pre-release.

    it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 

    every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

    well .. i don't buy early access and pre-release.
    BUT ... for the love of your god ... stop dictating how other should buy their entertainment.
    I think KS is a colossal waste of money (so obviously i won't be giving any KS project a dime) but you don't see me trying to stop others from flushing their money down the toilet. It is their right to do so.
    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.

    Qui tacet consentit
    Except there isn't an en masse rush off of a cliff. You're not saving anyone from anything serious. At worst they lose some money. At best they help get a project off the ground they want to be a part of. If they've made a mistake by doing that then hopefully they'll learn a lesson.

    Should we save the rest of the gaming community from flushing their money down the drain on subscription rental payments? Cash Shops? Think of the children!

    I agree with Narius. Let people, in general, spend their entertainment dollars how they want to.
    Strawman and non sequitur.  The topic is paid early access and pre-release, which carries different implications from "subscription rental payments".

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Vardahoth said:
    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    While i admire your idealism i also mourn for when that will fail for you and i hope it will not be to harsh of a blow. But unless you manage to become financially independent you will at some point have take on and then push out one if not several projects just to make ends meet. 

    That is how it works... Sadly... And i am not saying that to be fatalistic but because i have close to 10 years of learning or working in creative projects including a BA and a MoA. 

    Now personally i say... Pre-ordering is fine as long as the product is actually limited in supply. Like let´s say Collectors editions (and before anyone say anything... they are called that for a reason... that is because they are a premium product aimed at people who... collect.) or if there is a solid discount by doing soo. No need to be stupid about money. 

    Early access is a strange beast. I would say it is ok if you are content with the product being sold to you at the point you buy it. The in-development games from Codemasters and Bugbear would be good candidates for that. Beyond that it is in my mind a bit to big of a gamble, Hench why i have not bought in to SC yet. But seeing how early access is something that we our self brought about, our demand for more insight and earlier access, and the willingness to pay for said access sort of forced the devs in to this position... Just look at the "beta" craze. 

    I have nothing against day-1 DLC... I do have something against slicing the game up in to chunks of paid DLC... Just look at games like Battlefield and Battlefront... Playerbases being split and split again by maps locked behind paywalls. Very dumb idea in games that live on having a healthy playerbase, MMO´s sort of fall in to that category too. With expansions splitting players up seven ways to sunday. But i have nothing against DLC being dropped asap because i am not naive enough to think that delaying it a few weeks months would change the publishers idea of what to make DLC and not.


    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    I personally choose not to pay for early access, simply because I don't have enough time for all the developers on Steam (or elsewhere) that have so many great ideas if I would just come along for the ride. Get back to me when you have an experience you are presenting with confidence.

    However, when I made this comment I was actually considering more the many, many scams that have occurred in the wild west of crowd funding.  I won't bother listing them here.
    It's fine not to feel it's worth it. I don't buy LOTS of different things. But I also don't compare buying those things with jumping off a cliff.  The system isn't bad, only a few individual companies are bad.  People need to learn to avoid those companies: if a company isn't presenting themselves professionally, someone considering supporting that company via kickstarter or early access should understand the risk they're taking.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    Axehilt said:
    I personally choose not to pay for early access, simply because I don't have enough time for all the developers on Steam (or elsewhere) that have so many great ideas if I would just come along for the ride. Get back to me when you have an experience you are presenting with confidence.

    However, when I made this comment I was actually considering more the many, many scams that have occurred in the wild west of crowd funding.  I won't bother listing them here.
    It's fine not to feel it's worth it. I don't buy LOTS of different things. But I also don't compare buying those things with jumping off a cliff.  The system isn't bad, only a few individual companies are bad.  People need to learn to avoid those companies: if a company isn't presenting themselves professionally, someone considering supporting that company via kickstarter or early access should understand the risk they're taking.
    I partly agree.

    I would say that any system that allows companies to get away scott-free with millions is flawed.  Generally I favor free markets, but not without some checks and balances.

    I'm sure you remember Greed Monger? Divergence Online? Doom/Atlantic City?  These are not the products of a flawless system.  I don't think you can pin it all on the companies; at some point or another I'd wager they all thought they were doing the right thing, which later turned into following the path of least resistance, which eventually became disastrous failure.

    If people were 100% rational all the time, I would agree with your statement completely.  This is not the case as things like herding behavior exist within markets.  I take exception to the 'every man for himself' mentality vis-a-vis 'your money, your call' because we aren't totally rational all the time.  Spenders are listening to other spenders to a degree; the voice of objectors and abstainers should also be heard, or at the very least not be silenced.

    Saying "watch out" is just as valid as saying "I'm in".

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    If people were 100% rational all the time, I would agree with your statement completely.  This is not the case as things like herding behavior exist within markets.  I take exception to the 'every man for himself' mentality vis-a-vis 'your money, your call' because we aren't totally rational all the time.  Spenders are listening to other spenders to a degree; the voice of objectors and abstainers should also be heard, or at the very least not be silenced.

    Saying "watch out" is just as valid as saying "I'm in".
    The OP did not say "watch out". He said "STOP xxx because it hurt the gaming community". He is asking people to stop, because of his own interests.

    Sure, people are irrational. Sure, having someone saying "watch out" is fine. But try to impose behavior? If someone is irrational, and knowing flushing money down the toilet (it is not like preorder and early access have not been discussed 100000 times), we have no rights nor obligation to go beyond a warning. Let them.

    At the end of the day, it is moot anyway. It is not like a post on an internet forum is going to make a dent in the preorder/early access business. 
  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,980
    Buying early release isn't the problem. I purchased the expensive ArcheAge pack and absolutely enjoyed the beta. The game, however, was completely destroyed by their Pay 2 Win scheme - worst I've ever seen.

    If a game has loads and loads of content to watch / no NDA, I will generally purchase a starter pack. However, if a game offers a 1-day sneak peak with heavy NDA, I will not even think about purchasing access, e.g., Star Trek Online.
  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    I'll still buy EA games from devs I trust, want to support, and know they can eventually deliver.
    Early Access alone is not a problem at all.
    If you want to warn someone about EA, say that you are cheating yourself out of a great game experience you may never have because you couldn't wait.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    mmoguy43 said:
    I'll still buy EA games from devs I trust, want to support, and know they can eventually deliver.

    Or just buy it from steam .. it has a money back guarantee. 
  • KazuhiroKazuhiro Member UncommonPosts: 582
    jmcdermottuk said:Can we add any game that releases with day 1 DLC to that as well? If that content is ready on day 1 chances are it was part of the game that has been cut out deliberately so they can gouge another $10 or £5 out of us. I don't mean don't by the DLC, I mean don't buy the game period. Wait for it to go on sale after they shit their pants because nobody will buy it.

    Lets turn the tables on them. Let us be the ones taking advantage of them.
    You can't herd cats. Especially cats with a drug-like addiction, and below average IQ among the masses.

    To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    tawess said:
    Vardahoth said:
    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    While i admire your idealism i also mourn for when that will fail for you and i hope it will not be to harsh of a blow. But unless you manage to become financially independent you will at some point have take on and then push out one if not several projects just to make ends meet. 

    That is how it works... Sadly... And i am not saying that to be fatalistic but because i have close to 10 years of learning or working in creative projects including a BA and a MoA. 

    Now personally i say... Pre-ordering is fine as long as the product is actually limited in supply. Like let´s say Collectors editions (and before anyone say anything... they are called that for a reason... that is because they are a premium product aimed at people who... collect.) or if there is a solid discount by doing soo. No need to be stupid about money. 

    Early access is a strange beast. I would say it is ok if you are content with the product being sold to you at the point you buy it. The in-development games from Codemasters and Bugbear would be good candidates for that. Beyond that it is in my mind a bit to big of a gamble, Hench why i have not bought in to SC yet. But seeing how early access is something that we our self brought about, our demand for more insight and earlier access, and the willingness to pay for said access sort of forced the devs in to this position... Just look at the "beta" craze. 

    I have nothing against day-1 DLC... I do have something against slicing the game up in to chunks of paid DLC... Just look at games like Battlefield and Battlefront... Playerbases being split and split again by maps locked behind paywalls. Very dumb idea in games that live on having a healthy playerbase, MMO´s sort of fall in to that category too. With expansions splitting players up seven ways to sunday. But i have nothing against DLC being dropped asap because i am not naive enough to think that delaying it a few weeks months would change the publishers idea of what to make DLC and not.


    There are developers out there who choose to be professionals, and their are companies out there who value professionalism and honesty. One that comes to mind is 8thLight.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    Kazuhiro said:
    jmcdermottuk said:Can we add any game that releases with day 1 DLC to that as well? If that content is ready on day 1 chances are it was part of the game that has been cut out deliberately so they can gouge another $10 or £5 out of us. I don't mean don't by the DLC, I mean don't buy the game period. Wait for it to go on sale after they shit their pants because nobody will buy it.

    Lets turn the tables on them. Let us be the ones taking advantage of them.
    You can't herd cats. Especially cats with a drug-like addiction, and below average IQ among the masses.
    lol .. and you have to insult people who buy DLCs.

    It is a free world. If the devs want to sell day 1 DLC, is there a reason why we should not let them? If there are players who have the money, and want to pay for day 1 DLC, is there reason why we should not let them have their fun?

    Just a disclaimer: I don't buy day 1 DLC. But that does not mean that I don't think others have the right to do so. It is their money.
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Vardahoth said:
    There are developers out there who choose to be professionals, and their are companies out there who value professionalism and honesty. One that comes to mind is 8thLight.
    And what games has 8thLight produced entirely on their own?

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • PalaPala Member UncommonPosts: 313
    I am pretty sure big developers like EA would love KS to disappear but its not going anywhere

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Vardahoth said:
    There are developers out there who choose to be professionals, and their are companies out there who value professionalism and honesty. One that comes to mind is 8thLight.

    You do understand right that there is a lot more at work producing an item than idealism and hope right. 

    Delays happens, things breaks, suppliers let you down, people let you down, systems fails, economis shift and that is just the simple and easy to understand things. Sometimes... actually scratch that... Often you have to compromise the artistic vision and even integrity in order to either meet your set dealines or deliver a product. Pre-ordering culture is not a developer thing but a publisher thing... It is about them doing what they have set out to do, maximizing profit... Often because they have invested a lot in a product and they need to make enough money back so that their investors keep the faith in them so they in turn can continue to publish... And so on and so forth...

    But if you can find a way to make the games you want cheap enough and find a market big enough through selfpublishing and then avoid the siren call of expanding your business while also maintianing a fanbase that keep buying your games without demanding that you expand on features or do any further development. 

    Sure... you might be able to make a living as a game dev while never going back on any promis or make a compromise. But that is one in a million. 


    Or did you mean anything else by "honesty" and "professionalism"

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • TablixTablix Member UncommonPosts: 44
    Back in the day production companies (developers) pitched ideas to publishers to get funding to complete the project that was already in a alpha state, and the rest of the concept through to release was scheduled.  The money for the production was payed for by the publisher at this stage.  This put the preasure on publishers to be selective due to limited numbers of projects they could fund at once.  This worked to a point and the publishers and developers worked to strict deadlines to get the games finished within budget to release, even if they were sometimes a buggy mess.
    Then some bright spark decided to sell early access into beta for a couple of reasons, one it cut the cost of internal testing and also gave a lessened risk to any losses if the game was not too profitable if a game tanked as some costs had been recouped.  They mitigated some of the financial risk, yet could still make massive profits if the game was a success.
    This then went a step further with crowd-funding and kickstarters.  Dev's realised they could get ALL the production finance up front then use a publisher to deal with all the advertising/customer support at a cost of a percentage of profits/sales. 
    Now the dev's dont need to pitch an idea to people who know what they are talking about, just easily persuaded players.  The "fanbois" fund the developement, the dev's make the game, the publishers now only deal with customer support and advertising.  People are suckers for advertising, hence why people part with their money before they can even TEST a project, the pre-pay for early entry to beta.

    The OP is correct, as all people are doing is paying for things up front, lowering quality as there is no quality control before launch.  The projects break even before launch day, so there is no reason to worry about quality, as that can be fixed after launch through patch's if the product looks like it is going to be uber-succesful, otherwise its go F2P and use a cash shop to milk the game for every penny you can. 

    Players greed has caused the situation, and humans are prone to greed, business people are just smart enough to turn that greed of the customer into profit for them.

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