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PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF (YOUR) GOD.....

muffins89muffins89 Member UncommonPosts: 1,585

....stop buying early access and pre-release.


it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 


every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

«13

Comments

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • tkoreapertkoreaper Member UncommonPosts: 411
    It's one thing if it's a big-name developer, but ti's completely different when it's a company who has nothing to show for. These companies don't have neither the access nor leverage to get the investors they need so they're forced to rely on their players.

    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    And what kind of things were they making? You can't be so vague and then paint every company with a broad stroke and assume they're the same. There are games that are designed to played through once with no intention of furthering anything and then there are those that have a huge plan to last for a decade or more.
  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited November 2015
    tkoreaper said:
    It's one thing if it's a big-name developer, but ti's completely different when it's a company who has nothing to show for. These companies don't have neither the access nor leverage to get the investors they need so they're forced to rely on their players.

    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    And what kind of things were they making? You can't be so vague and then paint every company with a broad stroke and assume they're the same. There are games that are designed to played through once with no intention of furthering anything and then there are those that have a huge plan to last for a decade or more.
    All I can say is it involves healthcare. But this type of thinking was also very common in other companies I have worked with. It's pretty much industry standard.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,569
    muffins89 said:

    ....stop buying early access and pre-release.


    it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 


    every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

    Can we add any game that releases with day 1 DLC to that as well? If that content is ready on day 1 chances are it was part of the game that has been cut out deliberately so they can gouge another $10 or £5 out of us. I don't mean don't by the DLC, I mean don't buy the game period. Wait for it to go on sale after they shit their pants because nobody will buy it.

    Lets turn the tables on them. Let us be the ones taking advantage of them.
  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    @muffins89 many developers use early access to gather enough funds for their project. If they don't sell early access they won't be able to finish their project. There will be no "until the game is finished". People are getting into early access stages either to support the project they love or because they don't have a good alternative to play (not hate it too much). It's not like publisher funded released products are giving them a variety of perfect games to play. 

    On the other hand you are asking people what they should do with their money. If you are going down that road there's a very long list that is hurting the MMORPG industry. ie people should stop buying skins in MOBAs, P2W items from cash-shops, DLCs without enough Cs, in-game currency, etc - the list is long. 

    And it's pretty arrogant to label all the projects out there as "shit" for whatever reason. 

    @Vardahoth I'm not sure what do you mean by an "indie". An independent game developer? If they are getting a budget how can they be indie? Anyhow, quoting one person wouldn't make all the indie game developers non-creative. Because the only reason they are getting funds for their ideas is their ideas. 

    A product having bugs upon release is a different story than not delivering what was promised. Sadly it has become the new trend that even AAA companies shove their products to the stores and then patch their problems away. I personally wait a few weeks before I start playing a new title. 
    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,330
    I dont care if other people choose to fund these title, only that they don't act all surprised and upset if their donation doesn't deliver.

    The odds are very long against, with only a handful likely to be decently delivered.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,208
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. 
    was it over curry?

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,601
    Kyleran said:
    I dont care if other people choose to fund these title, only that they don't act all surprised and upset if their donation doesn't deliver.

    The odds are very long against, with only a handful likely to be decently delivered.
    Pretty much this. It's their running to the forums complaining and whining that's ruining the community.

    If you believe in a title: fund it.

    If it crashes and burns then learn from it and be more picky/careful with the next one. 

    If it works then good for you, you helped bring a game to completion, now have a coke.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,934
    Kyleran said:
    I dont care if other people choose to fund these title, only that they don't act all surprised and upset if their donation doesn't deliver.

    The odds are very long against, with only a handful likely to be decently delivered.
    I find this post a little hypocritical. In a Star Citizen thread I read and commented on a few moments ago you took cheap derogatory pot shots at the project for continued crowdfunding, but here in the abstract you're all for it.

    So is it that you're open minded as long as you like the project? But if you don't like a project then people are stupid and the developers immoral. That's essentially doublespeak.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    I can believe that.  It's like once they get your money first, there's really no incentive to deliver a top of the line product.  I read once the guy who was in charge of making Watch Dogs knew it wasn't optimized for their target pc audience but moved the project along anyways.  

    Few games get my money in advance now.  Only those who have a proven track record and those have been a few RPG's. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    Vardahoth said:
    tkoreaper said:
    It's one thing if it's a big-name developer, but ti's completely different when it's a company who has nothing to show for. These companies don't have neither the access nor leverage to get the investors they need so they're forced to rely on their players.

    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    And what kind of things were they making? You can't be so vague and then paint every company with a broad stroke and assume they're the same. There are games that are designed to played through once with no intention of furthering anything and then there are those that have a huge plan to last for a decade or more.
    All I can say is it involves healthcare. But this type of thinking was also very common in other companies I have worked with. It's pretty much industry standard.
    Seems to be a general business standard to also employ as few people as possible and just have them do more work.  More with less for greater profits.  Cut as many corners as possible to save money.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,827
    I wish the same thing OP,it only hurts the entire industry if people keep handing over money so easily.
    Problem is the greed is real,devs will take every cent they can get as fast as they can get it and websites will praise everything they do because their hand is in that same cookie jar.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RaquisRaquis Member RarePosts: 1,018
    developers are more interested in making a buck than creating a great product,as mush money possible for the quick average games!i buy very view games these days and the ones i pirate are so average i just play maybe and hour,lol!
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited November 2015
    It's more than just early access, it's things like asking for donations on developer sites, kickstarters, selling things before the game is even finished.

    It gives MMO a bad reputation, but it's deserved. There's no curation unlike on consoles.

    Post edited by Kiyoris on
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    As long as developers have projects I'm interested in and want to pay in advance to play I will do with my money as I please. I disagree that it has that much to do with the overall outcome of an MMO title. In most cases the preorder income could not possibly cover the full development costs so actually "cash grabbing" would be a loss in the end and not advisable. IMO that's why we're seeing actual indie titles more than big name ones right now. The cost is too great vs the saturation of the market for to invest big money so for these independent developers to produce an MMO most likely they need the funds.
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Vardahoth said:
     He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.
    this is every developer on kickstarter
  • zaberfangxzaberfangx Member UncommonPosts: 1,796
    edited November 2015
    As long people willing to put there time or money in to a buggy game with out the company to hiring tester. Company will keep doing it. Look at test sever on games are out of beta or so on. People are willing to test that as it's thier time with no reward. Same with company dropping early access and pre-release people are willing to put in there time or money for it that rush to be the first and company don't need to hire tester and try to fix bugs how it is this days.


  • evgen88evgen88 Member UncommonPosts: 120
    I've bought finished games that sucked. I've pre-ordered games that suck. I've paid for early access for Firefall. We all know how that went. I don't think when you pay your money makes much of a difference, especially in MMORPGs. Sure you can look at the finished game, but they can quickly go downhill. Look at Wildstar. It looked pretty good at launch, but I can't bring myself to play it now even for free.
    The problem is the game companies and whoever is calling the shots. The same reason why most movies when you really look at them aren't that good.
  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited November 2015
    @muffins89 many developers use early access to gather enough funds for their project. If they don't sell early access they won't be able to finish their project. There will be no "until the game is finished". People are getting into early access stages either to support the project they love or because they don't have a good alternative to play (not hate it too much). It's not like publisher funded released products are giving them a variety of perfect games to play. 

    On the other hand you are asking people what they should do with their money. If you are going down that road there's a very long list that is hurting the MMORPG industry. ie people should stop buying skins in MOBAs, P2W items from cash-shops, DLCs without enough Cs, in-game currency, etc - the list is long. 

    And it's pretty arrogant to label all the projects out there as "shit" for whatever reason. 

    @Vardahoth I'm not sure what do you mean by an "indie". An independent game developer? If they are getting a budget how can they be indie? Anyhow, quoting one person wouldn't make all the indie game developers non-creative. Because the only reason they are getting funds for their ideas is their ideas. 

    A product having bugs upon release is a different story than not delivering what was promised. Sadly it has become the new trend that even AAA companies shove their products to the stores and then patch their problems away. I personally wait a few weeks before I start playing a new title. 
    H1b's from india.


    Robokapp said:
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. 
    was it over curry?

    How did you guess!! Nah, actually we were at chipotle. Close enough though, since he had spicy stuff. I'm sure if there were Indian food restaurants nearby, he would have asked to go there instead.

    Vardahoth said:
    tkoreaper said:
    It's one thing if it's a big-name developer, but ti's completely different when it's a company who has nothing to show for. These companies don't have neither the access nor leverage to get the investors they need so they're forced to rely on their players.

    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.
    And what kind of things were they making? You can't be so vague and then paint every company with a broad stroke and assume they're the same. There are games that are designed to played through once with no intention of furthering anything and then there are those that have a huge plan to last for a decade or more.
    All I can say is it involves healthcare. But this type of thinking was also very common in other companies I have worked with. It's pretty much industry standard.
    Seems to be a general business standard to also employ as few people as possible and just have them do more work.  More with less for greater profits.  Cut as many corners as possible to save money.  


    I just quit Qualcomm because they were pulling this and asking me to work 80-100 hours a week. They were supposed to hire a team of 8 people, instead just me. After 3 years I told my manager I'm leaving. He said I can't leave for at least 5 months. I told him "well, I don't know how it works in India, but in America, workers have the right to leave whenever they want."

    I'm never working that many hours again. I like the company I'm with now and enjoy the 40hrs a week.

    Kiyoris said:
    Vardahoth said:
     He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.
    this is every developer on kickstarter


    This is why I have never paid for any kickstarter. I pay for things that are guaranteed.

    zaberfangx said:
    As long people willing to put there time or money in to a buggy game with out the company to hiring tester. Company will keep doing it. Look at test sever on games are out of beta or so on. People are willing to test that as it's thier time with no reward. Same with company dropping early access and pre-release people are willing to put in there time or money for it that rush to be the first and company don't need to hire tester and try to fix bugs how it is this days.

    Sad but true. There is a serious lack of due diligence with gamers. And because of this, they are very easy to scam.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,934
    if I like a game well enough I do not mind paying for early access. I do not see any issue with that. My money my decision.

  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    edited November 2015
    OP yo are wasting your time.
    Sadly is not going to happen, like ever.

  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.


    As long as people buy this tuff, they will keep making it.

    Complaining that the industry works this way is like complaining about bad politicians. They got voted in, by YOU. Don't vote for them for the right reasons and they will stop dominating the market.


    http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/
     An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,330
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    I dont care if other people choose to fund these title, only that they don't act all surprised and upset if their donation doesn't deliver.

    The odds are very long against, with only a handful likely to be decently delivered.
    I find this post a little hypocritical. In a Star Citizen thread I read and commented on a few moments ago you took cheap derogatory pot shots at the project for continued crowdfunding, but here in the abstract you're all for it.

    So is it that you're open minded as long as you like the project? But if you don't like a project then people are stupid and the developers immoral. That's essentially doublespeak.
    Not at all, here I'm stating it is fine for players to support these titles as long as they don't complain about it if it doesn't work out, even for that other game.

    I do feel it is immoral on the developers part to continue to seek additional funding far above the stated project scope just because they can take advantage of players goodwill regardless of actual need.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    muffins89 said:

    ....stop buying early access and pre-release.


    it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 


    every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

    well .. i don't buy early access and pre-release. 

    BUT ... for the love of your god ... stop dictating how other should buy their entertainment. 

    I think KS is a colossal waste of money (so obviously i won't be giving any KS project a dime) but you don't see me trying to stop others from flushing their money down the toilet. It is their right to do so.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,002
    muffins89 said:

    ....stop buying early access and pre-release.


    it does nothing but hurt us as a gaming community.  I don't care how excited you are,  or hyped,  or how much you just know that this game will be your gaming savior.  be patient and wait.  dare the gaming developers to deliver a fully functional game before you buy it.  cause the shit im seeing now is doing nothing for gamers and everything for 2-bit developers (this includes supposedly AAA game developers).  stop giving them money until the game is finished.  for all our sakes. 


    every time a bell rings an angel gets it's wings.

    well .. i don't buy early access and pre-release. 

    BUT ... for the love of your god ... stop dictating how other should buy their entertainment. 

    I think KS is a colossal waste of money (so obviously i won't be giving any KS project a dime) but you don't see me trying to stop others from flushing their money down the toilet. It is their right to do so.

    However, it's also basic human goodness to warn others if you see them rushing en masse off a cliff that maybe only you and a few others are aware of.

    Qui tacet consentit

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

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