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massive void in the market!

AdamaiAdamai Member UncommonPosts: 476
So over the last lets say, 10 years. ive been avidly playing rpg's  both online and single player and i think i may have found a niche market  in their..


RPG with base building..  im not talking pillars of eternity type base building or even never winter knights type base building.. although never winter knights 2  system is a very good start and attempt though very lacking.   i think its about time a developer created an rpg  that had significant base building as part of its primary format. not just some half baked side thing like it is in pillars or nwn 2  but fully fledged base building.. like start the main story as you progress you either find aquire or build from scratch a keep , fortress, or town and over the course of the game you find and recruit help npc's and soldiers  and resources and workers  to build your town, base, castle, fortress  up and upgrade it as you see fit with constant ability to improve and tweak it and manage the day to day functions of said settlement like tax and the missions your soldiers and companions can embark on which would yield rewards for you and to help the keep. the ability to expand the keeps influence with out posts which can be garrisoned and manged opening up daily repeatable type quests... this can also be an mmo!! i want to know why no one is tapping into this aspect of gaming.. people love this sort of thing. its like the final answer to personalization of your individual game experience and progress.. you level up your charecter you build it how you want and fit him/her out with the best armour for your s tyle and method of play!!! and then on top of all this you have an entire city/castle to build and manage and maintain and upgrade and utilize its assets to progress through the game world..   i love this feature but its only  slightly available in about 2 games.... pillars of eternity and nwn 2.. and they are a very lame attempt  at this new system.  

its time this thing was really pushed out there.. people will love it. its like adding a new level of experience and emmersion to the game play experience. it makes no sense not to have it.. dragon age inquisition had a simple version of it  but again never really expanded on the idea. they kept it tight and generic and not really very useful.

come on developers make a game with this in..

Comments

  • DaikuruDaikuru Member RarePosts: 797
    I hope 2016 will be a good year for mmo player.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    - Albert Einstein


  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    WoW did it with Garrisons, and as a result it devoid the world of players because everyone stayed in their garrison the whole time.
    Of course you understand that if those settlements were not instanced it would not be possible to be implemented.
    Can you imagine if every player had a non instanced Castle?
    You will have more Castles than trees in the game, not a pretty sight.

    Yeap, I am sure that the reason no one did it, is because it is impractical.

    Of course there are plenty of games with big settlements and castes but those are usually reserved to Guilds, and I am sure that's not what you were talking about.

  • KothosesKothoses Member UncommonPosts: 893
    Adamai said:
    So over the last lets say, 10 years. ive been avidly playing rpg's  both online and single player and i think i may have found a niche market  in their..


    RPG with base building..  im not talking pillars of eternity type base building or even never winter knights type base building.. although never winter knights 2  system is a very good start and attempt though very lacking.   i think its about time a developer created an rpg  that had significant base building as part of its primary format. not just some half baked side thing like it is in pillars or nwn 2  but fully fledged base building.. like start the main story as you progress you either find aquire or build from scratch a keep , fortress, or town and over the course of the game you find and recruit help npc's and soldiers  and resources and workers  to build your town, base, castle, fortress  up and upgrade it as you see fit with constant ability to improve and tweak it and manage the day to day functions of said settlement like tax and the missions your soldiers and companions can embark on which would yield rewards for you and to help the keep. the ability to expand the keeps influence with out posts which can be garrisoned and manged opening up daily repeatable type quests... this can also be an mmo!! i want to know why no one is tapping into this aspect of gaming.. people love this sort of thing. its like the final answer to personalization of your individual game experience and progress.. you level up your charecter you build it how you want and fit him/her out with the best armour for your s tyle and method of play!!! and then on top of all this you have an entire city/castle to build and manage and maintain and upgrade and utilize its assets to progress through the game world..   i love this feature but its only  slightly available in about 2 games.... pillars of eternity and nwn 2.. and they are a very lame attempt  at this new system.  

    its time this thing was really pushed out there.. people will love it. its like adding a new level of experience and emmersion to the game play experience. it makes no sense not to have it.. dragon age inquisition had a simple version of it  but again never really expanded on the idea. they kept it tight and generic and not really very useful.

    come on developers make a game with this in..
    This!   The nearest I have seen to this done well in an RPG is Never Winter Nights 2, and even that didnt scratch my itch enough.   

    The way I thought of it was a game where you build up a city or state, and as you build things, you attract NPCs who in turn advance the world story with you, for example, a priest might help you uncover the location of a tome that holds the secrets of Paladinhood, allowing Paladins to be a thing, who in turn, locate a dragon whose horde is the reward for ending its evil.    Taking down the Dragon, brings in wealth, but also the attention of merchant guilds, who in turn attract theives.

    The concept is dizzying if executed well, but there is nothing out there like it.

    Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    and how does the OP know that there is such a void? ESP? Survey? A few people wanting it on a forum is not a "massive void in the market". 
  • RevofireRevofire Member UncommonPosts: 269
    *cough* Gloria Victis *cough* Chronicles of Elyria
    Change your thoughts and you change your world. - Norman Vincent Peale


  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,208
    The void was first felt when the "WoW-killers" began being born and die. AOC and WAR together marked the AAA Start of the void. Aion followed. It's all history from there.

    image

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,854
    Well op i am ok with the idea as long as everything is plausible and makes sense.I am never for ideas if they are just an idea tossed in  their to be different.I see you mention realistic scenarios like workers and soldiers and stuff so yeah i am ok with your idea.

    Basically we are talking a Age of Empires MMO.Honestly it just won't work without instancing everything,far too much AI and no way in hell would i go for any invisible automated npc system,i want to see everything in game in action form,the same way i see my npc's working for me in AOE.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,212
    Have you tried, by chance, AoC? I mean http://www.ageofconan.com/news/guild_cities

    Of course it's not "your" castle (agree in this with @ste2000 above, every player with an own castle - not a bright idea), but if you are the guild's Architect, the coordination and building is basically your job.

    Naturally I should add at this point to hurry with the tryout, because who knows how this will change with the upcoming crafting revamp, but... :lol: heh-heh. The crafting revamp is in the Soon™ state since years... so take your time, find (or start) a guild, and check that how close is this to your "massive void in the market" concept.
    (a friendly warning, raising an Architect is a huge pain in the butt, all the other crafts are much easier and faster)
  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,875
    You have to check sandbox games like Ark:Survival evolved , or Life is Feudal ... or even 7 days to die or Rust.

    Its all about base building.



  • ste2000ste2000 Member EpicPosts: 6,194
    Revofire said:
    *cough* Gloria Victis *cough* Chronicles of Elyria
    I am sure the OP meant actual personal Castles/Settlements not just Houses.
    Non instanced housing is doable though very difficult to implement, but few devs are trying.
    What the OP is suggesting though is on an entire other level.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Robokapp said:
    The void was first felt when the "WoW-killers" began being born and die. AOC and WAR together marked the AAA Start of the void. Aion followed. It's all history from there.
    What void? That just shows that people are sick of MMORPGs .. said nothing about this "void" that the OP hypothesized.

    In fact, the "void" is filled by MOBA, and CCGs, and shooters. Now that at least have some evidence to back up.
  • StaalBurgherStaalBurgher Member UncommonPosts: 265
    Perhaps the void is represented by how many people flock to a new MMO and very quick drop it again?
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,322
    Robokapp said:
    The void was first felt when the "WoW-killers" began being born and die. AOC and WAR together marked the AAA Start of the void. Aion followed. It's all history from there.
    What void? That just shows that people are sick of MMORPGs .. said nothing about this "void" that the OP hypothesized.

    In fact, the "void" is filled by MOBA, and CCGs, and shooters. Now that at least have some evidence to back up.

    That's all we get on here, post after post of players sick of MMOs...well obviously not, but that's Nari for you. :D

    There clearly is space in the market for a base building RPG MMO. A mixture of MMO as we know it with base building and resource gathering. Somewhat like resource gathering for forts in AoC.

    Not sure what would be the best setup, but it would have some appeal to your more Minecraft true builders as well.

     25 Agrees

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  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    yeah why not. i have post this idea before
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Scot said:
    Robokapp said:
    The void was first felt when the "WoW-killers" began being born and die. AOC and WAR together marked the AAA Start of the void. Aion followed. It's all history from there.
    What void? That just shows that people are sick of MMORPGs .. said nothing about this "void" that the OP hypothesized.

    In fact, the "void" is filled by MOBA, and CCGs, and shooters. Now that at least have some evidence to back up.

    That's all we get on here, post after post of players sick of MMOs...well obviously not, but that's Nari for you. :D

    There clearly is space in the market for a base building RPG MMO. A mixture of MMO as we know it with base building and resource gathering. Somewhat like resource gathering for forts in AoC.

    Not sure what would be the best setup, but it would have some appeal to your more Minecraft true builders as well.

    Are you seriously believe that people are sick of MOBAs, CCGs, and shooters? I did say people are sick of classical MMORPGs .. but that is just preaching to the choir.

    And again, why is it "clear" that there is a big market (i.e. massive void) for a base building RPG MMO. Where is the evidence? Using words like "clearly" does not make it so.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,607
    Whilst I believe there are certainly a lot of opportunities left within the MMO world to experiment with new ideas and evolve existing ones, such as base building, "massive void" is definitely the wrong choice of words. 


    The main problem with base building, imo, is where do you put it? If you make the bases instanced, then they lose their appeal to a lot of people and they stop having an influence on the world. If you allow people to build stuff anywhere, you can quickly end up with maps / landscapes ruined by crap. In SWG, cities were good fun but quickly ended up with deserted cities polluting the maps and never disappearing. 


    I'd definitely like to see guilds capable of building their own bases, growing over time, turning them into towns and then cities, complete with vendors, quick travel, crafting stations, quest givers etc, but I think we're still a long way off in terms of both design and technology before such a feature is possible without ruining the game. 
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,208
    edited November 2015
    Scot said:
    Robokapp said:
    The void was first felt when the "WoW-killers" began being born and die. AOC and WAR together marked the AAA Start of the void. Aion followed. It's all history from there.
    What void? That just shows that people are sick of MMORPGs .. said nothing about this "void" that the OP hypothesized.

    In fact, the "void" is filled by MOBA, and CCGs, and shooters. Now that at least have some evidence to back up.

    That's all we get on here, post after post of players sick of MMOs...well obviously not, but that's Nari for you. :D

    There clearly is space in the market for a base building RPG MMO. A mixture of MMO as we know it with base building and resource gathering. Somewhat like resource gathering for forts in AoC.

    Not sure what would be the best setup, but it would have some appeal to your more Minecraft true builders as well.

    Are you seriously believe that people are sick of MOBAs, CCGs, and shooters? I did say people are sick of classical MMORPGs .. but that is just preaching to the choir.

    And again, why is it "clear" that there is a big market (i.e. massive void) for a base building RPG MMO. Where is the evidence? Using words like "clearly" does not make it so.
    Ask the SWG fans about the player-made cities. They'll tell you. 10 years later. 
    Ask EVE players about walking in stations...

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Robokapp said:

    Ask the SWG fans about the player-made cities. They'll tell you. 10 years later. 
    Ask EVE players about walking in stations...
    So? That is not a "massive" void .. not in today's market. If you add up the peak subs of SWG & Eve, we are probably still talking about less than 1M players.

    Plus, no one has actually done the asking. Do you have a survey of SWG fans and Eve players on this? Talking to a few friends does not count. 

  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,894
    edited December 2015
    WurmOnline manages it,  though without the NPCs.

    • here is a map: http://xanadu-wurm.rhcloud.com/
    • across the map is 32KM(about 20 miles) meaning there are 1024 square KM(where the player 'runs' at around 12KM/hr with no inventory).
    • Online right now(5PM eastern time) near peek time there are 200 people:  http://www.wurmonline.com/server-status/
    • So it's safe to assume that there are something like 2,000 to 5,000 active accounts safely.
    • Each of those yellow dots is a settlement(with a minimum of one player, to any number of players), where the player is either paying real cash or trading in game time to get it from another player to maintain legal control over that area.

    ___________________

    Haven and Hearth manages it, again without the NPCs.

    • Here is a map:  http://map.apxeolog.com/
    • The map is about a '4-8 hour walk from one edge to another edge'.   That map is also pixel perfect, mapped tile by tile.
    • Meaning I'll call that a >40KM by >40KM map. 
    • EDIT:  185 online right now.
    • Also has some of the most unique features in the sense that everything(even leveling) is done by crafting, and where as you craft and build up your base you feel like you're going up a tech tree.
    • Also has permadeath mechanics, full PvPer, and similar.   Amazingly the world doesn't fall apart, AND players are given tools to effectively police themselves(the ability to summon+kill criminals while they're offline, and track them down with some effort).


    ____________________

    These are both games that are close to the heart I guess.   I wish that game devs would take the hint that people are willing to play "games with many problems and much baggage", and that are "sub par in so many ways"...   That there is a smaller risk than they think for making player controlled worlds(After all if people are willing to play those two games with their baggage, how bad could their game go).


    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    anemo said:
    WurmOnline manages it,  though without the NPCs.

    • here is a map: http://xanadu-wurm.rhcloud.com/
    • across the map is 32KM(about 20 miles) meaning there are 1024 square KM(where the player 'runs' at around 12KM/hr with no inventory).
    • Online right now(5PM eastern time) near peek time there are 200 people:  http://www.wurmonline.com/server-status/
    • So it's safe to assume that there are something like 2,000 to 5,000 active accounts safely.
    • Each of those yellow dots is a settlement(with a minimum of one player, to any number of players), where the player is either paying real cash or trading in game time to get it from another player to maintain legal control over that area.

    ___________________

    Haven and Hearth manages it, again without the NPCs.

    • Here is a map:  http://map.apxeolog.com/
    • The map is about a '4-8 hour walk from one edge to another edge'.   That map is also pixel perfect, mapped tile by tile.
    • Meaning I'll call that a >40KM by >40KM map. 
    • EDIT:  185 online right now.
    • Also has some of the most unique features in the sense that everything(even leveling) is done by crafting, and where as you craft and build up your base you feel like you're going up a tech tree.
    • Also has permadeath mechanics, full PvPer, and similar.   Amazingly the world doesn't fall apart, AND players are given tools to effectively police themselves(the ability to summon+kill criminals while they're offline, and track them down with some effort).


    ____________________

    These are both games that are close to the heart I guess.   I wish that game devs would take the hint that people are willing to play "games with many problems and much baggage", and that are "sub par in so many ways"...   That there is a smaller risk than they think for making player controlled worlds(After all if people are willing to play those two games with their baggage, how bad could their game go).


    Peak time ONLY  200 people and 185? I think the game devs are taking the hint that if they want anything more than a few thousand players, these designs are not the way to go.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    Doesn't ArcheAge have castle building?  From what I have read, one a week a contract goes up for action on your castle (starting bid 500g).  The winner of the contract goes to war Sunday afternoon, in a 70 vs 70 match.  If the castle is taken and held, the land transfers hands.  Castles take resource to build, and are free form.

    Castle ownership creates player housing spots, and it allows for taxation in its territory.

    Is this what the OP was talking about, or was the idea something more?  I realise there are no NPC defenders,  It expects the guild to have at least 70 players that can participate in a siege.

    If a person feels that a feature is not being met or supplied, I suppose they can feel there is a "Massive Void".  We can not attack this feeling.  The best we can do is present evidence where we feel the feature is being supplied, and discuss how and why if does or doesn't meet the need.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,146
    Konfess said:
    Doesn't ArcheAge have castle building?  From what I have read, one a week a contract goes up for action on your castle (starting bid 500g).  The winner of the contract goes to war Sunday afternoon, in a 70 vs 70 match.  If the castle is taken and held, the land transfers hands.  Castles take resource to build, and are free form.

    Castle ownership creates player housing spots, and it allows for taxation in its territory.

    Is this what the OP was talking about, or was the idea something more?  I realise there are no NPC defenders,  It expects the guild to have at least 70 players that can participate in a siege.

    If a person feels that a feature is not being met or supplied, I suppose they can feel there is a "Massive Void".  We can not attack this feeling.  The best we can do is present evidence where we feel the feature is being supplied, and discuss how and why if does or doesn't meet the need.
    And even if something is not being supplied (e.g. booger juice), it does not mean there is a "massive void" in the market. The void is likely very small in that case at least.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,894
    anemo said:
    WurmOnline manages it,  though without the NPCs.

    • here is a map: http://xanadu-wurm.rhcloud.com/
    • across the map is 32KM(about 20 miles) meaning there are 1024 square KM(where the player 'runs' at around 12KM/hr with no inventory).
    • Online right now(5PM eastern time) near peek time there are 200 people:  http://www.wurmonline.com/server-status/
    • So it's safe to assume that there are something like 2,000 to 5,000 active accounts safely.
    • Each of those yellow dots is a settlement(with a minimum of one player, to any number of players), where the player is either paying real cash or trading in game time to get it from another player to maintain legal control over that area.

    ___________________

    Haven and Hearth manages it, again without the NPCs.

    • Here is a map:  http://map.apxeolog.com/
    • The map is about a '4-8 hour walk from one edge to another edge'.   That map is also pixel perfect, mapped tile by tile.
    • Meaning I'll call that a >40KM by >40KM map. 
    • EDIT:  185 online right now.
    • Also has some of the most unique features in the sense that everything(even leveling) is done by crafting, and where as you craft and build up your base you feel like you're going up a tech tree.
    • Also has permadeath mechanics, full PvPer, and similar.   Amazingly the world doesn't fall apart, AND players are given tools to effectively police themselves(the ability to summon+kill criminals while they're offline, and track them down with some effort).


    ____________________

    These are both games that are close to the heart I guess.   I wish that game devs would take the hint that people are willing to play "games with many problems and much baggage", and that are "sub par in so many ways"...   That there is a smaller risk than they think for making player controlled worlds(After all if people are willing to play those two games with their baggage, how bad could their game go).


    Peak time ONLY  200 people and 185? I think the game devs are taking the hint that if they want anything more than a few thousand players, these designs are not the way to go.

    Are you willing to play a 3D game that is grindier than Runescape, has worse combat than it, has no story content, and looks older than most college students.   Welcome to Wurm.   (also worth noting that it has multiple servers and that the 200 number is for one of them)

    Are you willing to play an isometric game(probably still has the rap for being 2D rather than 3D), where you need to play for days before you can even start combat, that has some annoying imbalances intentionally designed into the game(Monopolies designed to force most players to trade their time at 5-10 hours of work to 1 to a select/lucky few for some resources).  Welcome to haven and hearth.

    __________

    The logic I'm trying to get people to follow is that people are willing to play such "bad" games to get the flavor of Minecraft in an actual MMO setting...  That something made with more resources available to it should actually be pretty successful.

    I mean really now Space Engineers has a forum that is more active than this forum.   Which is another demonstration of how much people like building games.


    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    anemo said:


    The logic I'm trying to get people to follow is that people are willing to play such "bad" games to get the flavor of Minecraft in an actual MMO setting...  
    So what if 200 people are willing to play bad games.

    You can probably find 200 players who are willing to play anything out of tens of millions of gamers. 
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