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What MMO's have REAL targeting. This this tab/soft tab target select BS?

LurchUSALurchUSA Member UncommonPosts: 97
edited November 2015 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Apart from FireFall and to a lesser extent TERA, what MMO's require to actually aim your shots?

I'm not talking about soft tab targeting, where you have to put your target recital over the target to attack, but actually having to aim so that you can miss your target if they move out of the way. Having arrows do impossible curve flight, because all tab targeted attacks hit, is rather immersion breaking. I would rather miss than have trick-shot arrows/magic missiles/bolts, etc.
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Comments

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited November 2015
    Some rpg gamers don't like their games turned into shooters. But there are plenty out there - As you said, Tera and FireFall, then there is Wildstar, Dayz, ESO, Skyforge, Darkfall, Mortal Online. You don't have to look very hard and I'm sure you can find a bunch.

    In general though, I recommend sticking with shooters if tab targeting or clicking to target bothers you that much.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • CelusiosCelusios Member UncommonPosts: 337
    Pretty small market unfortunately because as you've described I too dislike the whole curving tab targeting fuckery. The issue is, are you for open loot? Because both titles you named have themepark aspects of no open looting when killed.

    A majority of your non-tab skill based MMO's are open loot.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,094
    Neverwinter makes you aim by pointing at stuff, but I don't recall off hand if mobs can dodge your ranged attacks.  Players definitely can dodge mobs' attacks, though

    Trove, Elsword, and Spiral Knights definitely allow mobs to dodge your attacks.  You attack in a direction and hit whatever happens to be there--or quite possibly nothing.  Most ranged attacks take a while to get there, and if the mob got out of the way, you miss.  None of them have mobs that are especially clever about dodging, though some mobs in Trove will circle strafe you.
  • EntinerintEntinerint Member UncommonPosts: 868
    edited November 2015
    Planetside 2, Mortal Online and Darkfall UW are the only TRUE RTC MMOs I can think of (never played Defiance). ESO is close and GW2, Tera, Fallen Earth and Wildstar are a far third tier.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    Warframe, but it's a co-op game rahter than an mmo.
    Darkfall did, but am not sure if it still does.
    Moratl online, but I've never tried so can't say what it's like.
    DDO has a mixture of both.
    There's also STO which sort of does but not really.

  • EntinerintEntinerint Member UncommonPosts: 868
    edited November 2015
    Warframe, but it's a co-op game rahter than an mmo.
    Darkfall did, but am not sure if it still does.
    Moratl online, but I've never tried so can't say what it's like.
    DDO has a mixture of both.
    There's also STO which sort of does but not really.

    Mortal is the closest thing to Mount and Blade I've seen in an MMO. It has very slow, lumbering and deliberate combat for the most part.

    Darkfall is the opposite, it is fast and frenetic and still does have twitch combat, but it's very chaotic and there's not much strategy involved.

    DDO is very hybrid, similar to ESO, in its aim-combat mode. Forgot about that one.
  • KarahandrasKarahandras Member UncommonPosts: 1,703
    I forgot neocron 2 and i think fallen earth
    There are also a few ship based games.
  • rertezrertez Member UncommonPosts: 230
    You might enjoy Guild Wars 2's combat system. You can use the default tab targeting system and still your shots and all your animations actually have to connect with the target to successfully hit. Players can strafe away from a lot of shots at fair distance or even body block projectiles aimed at another players.

    There is a way to keybind the new action camera controls too if you prefer to aim with a reticule but I prefer the tab targeting one since it allows me to cast backwards easier. The default controls also provide more map awareness if you like to turn the camera regargless of what direction your character is facing. You can play the whole core game for free with some fair limitations if you wanna give it a shot. Otherwise it's B2P with a single purchase that includes the expansion if you like the F2P core game.

    Of course it's not an FPS in terms of aiming and hit boxes but it has a unique and deep action combat system that many of us enjoy. Also you can start structured PvP right from lvl1 since gear, skills and levels are normalized in sPvP so that everyone is basically like a level 80 in a selection of best gear stats and with lvl80 skills, traits unlocked. The expansion offers even more possible variations to your builds and a 9th playable class once you decide to buy the game.

    Since you mentioned TERA's combat as an example I thought that GW2 could be an option for you if you have never tried it yet.
  • Mange1Mange1 Member UncommonPosts: 265
    Vardahoth said:
    Some rpg gamers don't like their games turned into shooters. But there are plenty out there - As you said, Tera and FireFall, then there is Wildstar, Dayz, ESO, Skyforge, Darkfall, Mortal Online. You don't have to look very hard and I'm sure you can find a bunch.

    In general though, I recommend sticking with shooters if tab targeting or clicking to target bothers you that much.
    nt but you seem to have not fully comprehended rthe post, ESO and Skyforge?   Those are the very games he is wanting to avoid and calling out in the topic title.

    Wildstar, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Age of Conan (limited to melee chars) all come to mind.

    In the near future Crowfall I can say for sure, MAYBE Black Desert not sure how the combat actually feels myself but I am on the same page as you OP.  I am still disgusted by bow users firing behind themselves on ESO and the lack of urgency about changing it they had.
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    I think Defiance had the best combat in this regard. Real third person shooter combat. Although, it forced a lot of things to be client-side, which opened the door for hackers.

  • nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
    fps mmorpg give me motion sickness. gw2, archeage still good
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    LurchUSA said:
    Apart from FireFall and to a lesser extent TERA, what MMO's require to actually aim your shots?


    World of Tanks, World of Warships, Warframe, Star Conflict. 
  • BalianWolfieBalianWolfie Member UncommonPosts: 240
    edited November 2015
    Why people want to mix MMORPG with FPS? I mean aside from tab-target and point-click(isometric), how else would you implement MMORPG without tab? To think it with current network technology, MMOs just simply can't tie to FPS, which is why most FPS are heavily instanced and even in most social hubs it's either very low population cap or little latency result in great lag. Just to name few that has this type of experience: ESO, Skyforge, Destiny, Neverwinter, LiF... ESO and Skyforge tried to implement FPS into MMORPG and still needed soft targeting, same goes with GW2. 

    Back in the days when missiles "missed", it's determined by stats which tied to progression. In this way it more feels like a RPG than a FPS, and this "stats determination" makes transfer data much easier and more reliable. Nowadays with MMORPG market filled with demanding FPS junkies, RPGs suddenly all have to be FPS? 

    PS: this so-called "tab/soft tab target select BS" is literately modern MMORPG foundation that advanced from point-click isometric.

    image
  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    edited November 2015
    I think Defiance had the best combat in this regard. Real third person shooter combat. Although, it forced a lot of things to be client-side, which opened the door for hackers.
    Defiance, Destiny and Planetside 2 are the best I can think of as well.  However these are at best lightweight MMO's.

    Why would someone want to play a full blown MMO with gear progression as a core tenant than have the system ignore most of what separates those games from FPS's?  Twitch targeting undermines most of what makes traditional MMO's a MMO.  There is nothing wrong with games that go that path but I wouldn't really call any of them MMO's in the classic sense and there is a good reason for that.
  • CopperfieldCopperfield Member RarePosts: 654
    edited November 2015
    i think op is need of a high skill ceiling mmo..

    There is only one.. thats darkfall online.. which is gonna be relaunched soon

    darkfall vid:



    relaunch darkfall online

    https://riseofagon.com/

    - server side projectiles calculations
    - full open world no instanci:dizzy: 
    - huge battles


    nobody beats darkfalls skill ceiling. i am happy to debat with anyone who thinks otherwise :dizzy: 

    little info:

    There are only 2 games that manage to produce and engine for huge battles in the fps genre

    planetside 2
    darkfall

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,302
    If I ever wanted to carve some baddie in two with a greatsword, I'd definitely target him and aim at him. I wouldn't just wildly sway my sword around hoping to hit him. That's why targetting in MMORPGs makes some sense... I guess.
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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    udon said:

    Why would someone want to play a full blown MMO with gear progression as a core tenant than have the system ignore most of what separates those games from FPS's?  Twitch targeting undermines most of what makes traditional MMO's a MMO.  There is nothing wrong with games that go that path but I wouldn't really call any of them MMO's in the classic sense and there is a good reason for that.
    Who says MMOFPS cannot have gear progression as a core tenant? Lots of online FPSes do that.

    The key is not to make "traditional" MMOs. 
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,094
    Why people want to mix MMORPG with FPS? I mean aside from tab-target and point-click(isometric), how else would you implement MMORPG without tab? To think it with current network technology, MMOs just simply can't tie to FPS, which is why most FPS are heavily instanced and even in most social hubs it's either very low population cap or little latency result in great lag. Just to name few that has this type of experience: ESO, Skyforge, Destiny, Neverwinter, LiF... ESO and Skyforge tried to implement FPS into MMORPG and still needed soft targeting, same goes with GW2. 

    Back in the days when missiles "missed", it's determined by stats which tied to progression. In this way it more feels like a RPG than a FPS, and this "stats determination" makes transfer data much easier and more reliable. Nowadays with MMORPG market filled with demanding FPS junkies, RPGs suddenly all have to be FPS? 

    PS: this so-called "tab/soft tab target select BS" is literately modern MMORPG foundation that advanced from point-click isometric.
    You talk as though history began sometime less than 20 years ago.

    What did console games of the SNES/Genesis era and before do?  Most had no analog controls, but many managed to make aiming your shots matter.  What did the early Zelda games do, or Metroid, or Mega Man?  As early as Space Invaders (1978), there were mobs that could dodge attacks, and possibly before that, even.

    First person perspective was rare back then, as hardware couldn't handle it unless you did something awfully simple (e.g., Faceball, or in an earlier era, Battlezone).  But plenty of games had you attack in some direction and hit whatever happened to be there--or hit nothing at all.

    You can still do that today without needing to turn it into a first person shooter.  I cited Elsword above, which has side scrolling action combat where both you and mobs can dodge each others' attacks.  I also cited Spiral Knights, which takes an overhead view, but again, both you and mobs can dodge each others' attacks.  In Spiral Knights, you'd better dodge most attacks or you'll end up dead in a hurry.  Both of those games do use 3D rendering techniques, not the sprite-based approach that was common 30 years ago.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    LurchUSA said:
    Apart from FireFall and to a lesser extent TERA, what MMO's require to actually aim your shots?

    I'm not talking about soft tab targeting, where you have to put your target recital over the target to attack, but actually having to aim so that you can miss your target if they move out of the way. Having arrows do impossible curve flight, because all tab targeted attacks hit, is rather immersion breaking. I would rather miss than have trick-shot arrows/magic missiles/bolts, etc.
    Darkfall and Fallen Earth. 

    These are the two I know of at least

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    If anything, "real" targeting is tab target, where you can accurately target a specific mob, which allows the game to implement rigid CC.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    If anything, "real" targeting is tab target, where you can accurately target a specific mob, which allows the game to implement rigid CC.
    What does "rigid" CC even mean? 

    You don't need tab-targeting to have interesting CC .. how about hitting a mob (that you have to target) will CC it for a while? How about AOE CC? How about putting an effect on the ground (like snare) that can CC? All done in games without tab-targetting. 
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    edited November 2015
    Quizzical said:


    What did console games of the SNES/Genesis era and before do?

     What did the early Zelda games do, or Metroid, or Mega Man? 

     But plenty of games had you attack in some direction and hit whatever happened to be there--or hit nothing at all.


    Zelda is the birth of Action RPG.

    But look at any advanced Strategy and Turn based RPG on older consoles, and they all used tab target.

    The larger your party or raid, the more elaborate your combat system, the more healing, CC, and pulling matter, the more there is a need to target specific group members and mobs.

    If you don't implement a rigid targeting system, your game just ends up in zerg instead.

    tab target on megadrive:




  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,094
    edited November 2015
    Quizzical said:


    What did console games of the SNES/Genesis era and before do?

     What did the early Zelda games do, or Metroid, or Mega Man? 

     But plenty of games had you attack in some direction and hit whatever happened to be there--or hit nothing at all.


    Zelda is the birth of Action RPG.

    But look at any advanced Strategy and Turn based RPG on older consoles, and they all used tab target.

    The larger your party or raid, the more elaborate your combat system, the more healing, CC, and pulling matter, the more there is a need to target specific group members and mobs.

    If you don't implement a rigid targeting system, your game just ends up in zerg instead.

    tab target on megadrive:


    I'm not claiming that tab targeting is new.  Turn-based stuff has been around for a long time, and while not really tab targeting, it certainly isn't a matter of aiming, either.  I'm only saying that needing to aim other than in first person shooters used to be common.  Not universal, but definitely common.  I was responding to someone who didn't seem to see any alternatives to tab targeting or first person shooters.
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    edited November 2015
    I agree several games required aiming. Landstalker was the Zelda equivalent on Megadrive (genesis), and it required you to turn and aim.

    But then games like Zelda and Landstalker, were solo RPG, they were the birth of action RPG. You no longer controlled a group of characters, you controlled one character and instead of taking turns you had fast action.

    If anything, not much has changed since then, MMO that are action focused also tend to be solo MMO, even if you raid in those MMO, you feel like a solo character, instead of getting targeted heals, you spam health potions, same with CC, tanking, pulling, etc.

    In action MMO without a rigid tab target system, I never feel part of a greater collective, you don't feel like you're working together, you don't feel a connection, it's far more zerg than strategy. The combat speed is higher, you're allowed to make many more mistakes, you're focused more on the mob than your group or raid, it feels exactly like action RPG on consoles, very unsatisfying to me.
  • stayontargetstayontarget Member RarePosts: 6,514

    Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

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