Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Business Model
Gaming.Rocks2
Member UncommonPosts: 531
I have a couple of concerns about the business model Soulbound Studios has visioned. I do believe you are a creative group. I can see you are trying to get creative with your business model as well -not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing yet.
You have probably heard this quote in lots of movies from the hero right before he kills the villain "You will pay now!". When, in CoE that's literally the case. I know the prices aren't out yet. But there is still $ involved upon death. Maybe you have envisioned this into your game so people wouldn't be all that careless about dying and doing criminal activities. But that means you are punishing their wallets directly. So players will have to check with their wallets before they consider taking a certain risk or not. I guess people with a better RL income will be playing differently than those who don't, they take more risks, they are a bit more careless, maybe a lot more careless.
My other concern is besides lots of other new stuff you are doing (aging, dying, reincarnation, ...) you're adding a new business model on top of it. A business model that has not been tested in an MMO ever before. I understand you have considered this model at lengths, but I still believe it's going to be extremely hard to predict and plan post-launch.
It's true that market has changed a lot, it is evolving for the better or worse. The business model has become a competitive field itself. But why not stick to something that people are familiar with and understand and especially your crowd prefer? (maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what I think)
Sub is not dead. People are willing to pay a monthly fee to play with they enjoy. WoW, EVE, FFXIV are proof of that. When and if they have declining numbers it's not because of their model. Even EQ2 TL server showed (I know not a lot of people played that but still) many do prefer the sub model.
I believe your crowd is willing to pay a full box price plus a monthly sub fee if you deliver half what you promise. My 2 cents.
You have probably heard this quote in lots of movies from the hero right before he kills the villain "You will pay now!". When, in CoE that's literally the case. I know the prices aren't out yet. But there is still $ involved upon death. Maybe you have envisioned this into your game so people wouldn't be all that careless about dying and doing criminal activities. But that means you are punishing their wallets directly. So players will have to check with their wallets before they consider taking a certain risk or not. I guess people with a better RL income will be playing differently than those who don't, they take more risks, they are a bit more careless, maybe a lot more careless.
My other concern is besides lots of other new stuff you are doing (aging, dying, reincarnation, ...) you're adding a new business model on top of it. A business model that has not been tested in an MMO ever before. I understand you have considered this model at lengths, but I still believe it's going to be extremely hard to predict and plan post-launch.
It's true that market has changed a lot, it is evolving for the better or worse. The business model has become a competitive field itself. But why not stick to something that people are familiar with and understand and especially your crowd prefer? (maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what I think)
Sub is not dead. People are willing to pay a monthly fee to play with they enjoy. WoW, EVE, FFXIV are proof of that. When and if they have declining numbers it's not because of their model. Even EQ2 TL server showed (I know not a lot of people played that but still) many do prefer the sub model.
I believe your crowd is willing to pay a full box price plus a monthly sub fee if you deliver half what you promise. My 2 cents.
Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon.
Comments
Yes a subscription is tried, but it not tested with the mechanics of this game. It is not tested with the amount of freedom players have here, and that is the part that worries me about going to a sub. It is why I would prefer them not to change to that model.
I do not think it about what people are willing to pay, it is about what makes sense as a whole. This game has been designed as a whole, not as a game and a business model but a game with a business model. Separating them out is difficult because they seem so intertwined. I personally think that the business model is crucial for a lot of the systems to work as well as they suggest as it does add that risk that some may way to avoid. I do not think it is a large enough risk to discourage average play, from the estimated costs it is likely to work out less than or similar to sub depending on the number of characters you have.
I really think the series of posts Jeromy Walsh made in the thread about aging touched on why the business model is linked to it. It explains a lot of their though process. If you haven’t read it yet it starts here: http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6783284/#Comment_6783284
I hated, 100% f'ing hated losing xp when I died in DAOC. I hated losing my gear in UO, EQ etc. I hated the death penalty in EQ2 when it first came out hence why everybody left it to play WoW. Point being this is actually an old mechanic and an old way of thinking that is going to set them up to fail. If players hated the death penalties before, they are really going to hate paying real life money for it.
The reality is people don't like to die, you don't need to penalize them anything. The loss of time running back to where they were is enough and in this game having to start over with a new child character is plenty enough. Note that I like the design and the idea behind family, but don't tie a penalty to it.
If they take a subscription approach, 15 bucks a month I'll happily pay it if the game is worth it. I don't want my decisions in the game be driven by my real life finical situation. I play to have fun, not to get raped of my real life earnings. I will not play this game under the current business model.
Though in that case, there are plenty of other games available with a more fair system as a whole. Thus, I'm just looking on from the sidelines. In addition, the main idea behind a lot of MMOs is to get you attached to your character. I'm not sure if knowing there is a finite lifespan will do that even more for you -- as you don't want to take unnecessary risks (but at the same time, that limits your playstyle and you pay for doing things you might not want to) -- but that would just mean that it would be all the more hard when you finally lose your character in the end. Perhaps you want to go on a two month vacation, but you come back to an old man who is about to kick it and you get depressed.
Without a doubt one of the big factors of me quitting games is losing touch or ownership of my favorite character in it. This could be from my class being changed into a playstyle I don't like, or them simply updating the models to a point all the gear I spent years to get no longer looks the same on them. Or they don't look the same as a whole due to it. It was a major factor most recently in me quitting WoW; they allow you to use the old models, but you don't look good in your favorite gear with the new models, and most everyone uses those. So you know you look like crap to other people and just use the new and try to make it work with other stuff until you just quit.
As a whole, this just sounds like a MMO "The Sims" like game in a fantasy setting. You opt to play a new 15 year old or an established NPC and they go about their lives until they die shortly. Then you pay again and do it once more, trying not to get attached to them. Just makes me feel like I'm playing a game rather than a character as a whole.
If you die to a normal mob or a PC that doesn't do Coup de grace, you lose no time off your life, except time it takes to get back from loading. So unless they do Coup de grace on you, it's pretty much like every other MMO death.
Mobs that do Coup de grace are eluded to be very evil creatures (which looks like you'll know them before you encounter them.) PC people who do this come with penalities of their own that discourage them doing this to any major extent.
Even if you are coup de grace you only lose some time above which means your first death will very unlikely incur a cost. Just shorten the time until you have to pay again.
Now if you should die and have to "rebirth" you may lose the character and the skills, you can will your items to a family member and pick it up with that family member if you wish (which you probably will want to), but the skills have an up side. The skills you were most proficient in also get a bonus in your next life that make them raise faster and thus allow you to reach an even higher level than you did in the first place.
My biggest issue with this system is, I get attached to my characters to suddenly have a different look (ie a child) that I may not want kind of sucks but i'll have to see how it's implemented before I reach a decision on that one.
Final note: I"m normally very against perma death and losing items so this feature normally worries me and makes me usually not want to play the game. However seeing as you get more "lives" than one and merely losing to an NPC doesn't take one of these "lives" and there are counters in place to discourage people doing this. It seems like there's a risk but it isn't going to be full on die right away because some person was a jerk type of game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Chronicles of Elyria is not a typical subscription style game, outside the initial purchase of the game and using your first Spark of Life, if you wish to continue playing every 10-14 months (your playstyle dependent) you will need to purchase a fresh Spark of Life, this is a static once-off cost of around $20-$30 USD.
http://chroniclesofelyria.gamepedia.com/FAQ/Payment_Options
I swear, some of you expect game companies to make games for free. If you can't afford to play, don't play, simple as that.
On top of that, Coup de grace sounds like the biggest trolling mechanic of all time. Let's say you do something to piss off a collection of people (guild), then each person of that guild decides to use their Coup de grace against you, that's 20 bucks a shot. We all know about guild drama, we all know how easily it can happen.
Whenever you mix real life financials with game play it's a mistake no matter how creative you get. This is just another financial model that's neither interesting or adds anything positive to the game. Subscription model is the way to go and has been the way to go for a long time.
Join the revolutionary MMO!
Then CoE isn't the game for you. If you want to a be a jerk and troll people, then you can expect to pay more. In either case, you're getting to play a video game for somewhere between 10-14 months for around $30 USD. If you're bad at it, troll people, etc... then that $30 USD may only last you 6 months. Still a really good deal, considering that's the cost for a couple tickets to see a 3D movie.
@Luiden ;said: "...then each person of that guild decides to use their Coup de grace against you, that's 20 bucks a shot."
That's not $20 shot. So you spirit walk a few times. No big deal. Meanwhile, they're committing murder. If they're caught, they're going to lose more spirit than you. So they need to make sure it's planned out effectively to avoid getting caught.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
But the situation isn't just about my personal financial situation. Let me make an example. When EVE introduced the exchange of ISK to monthly sub many of my members started to avoiding conflicts. They always wanted grind enough ISK to pay for their sub first, then risk the rest on conflicts. Not any of the high ranking members because they all had a lot of extra ISK. But avg. members didn't. That affected their game play.
I would rather pay more and know exactly what I am buying and how long it will last than to pay possibly less and not know what I am getting (playtime) for what I am paying.
this game will be great for those who like the features so far. Not another cash grab theme park. Something new!
I will like it when the combat will be fun and when there is thrilling open world pvp.
However and i have said it many times,i am not a fan of unknown pay models,that is why i prefer a subscription,it is a known entity.Once you go down the path of a cash shop everything about it is unknown to the player.That is a serious problem because if we finally get a good game to invest years of time into ,what happens if after say 2 years an idea hits the cash shop that is a NO WAY or i quit?
I enjoyed FFXI thoroughly but once they introduced Abyssea a great big change in direction happened to the game and it was all about greed.It ruined the game for a lot of people and that sucks bad because i and others never saw it coming.Well that is a change content wise but the same thing can happen with a cash shop.
I know the "catch...gimmick",the thought process is that MOST will see it as a totally free game,hey as long as i don't die it's free.Remember that unknown i was talking about,well what happens if nobody is dying,the business doesn't make any money,you can bet your tank of goldfish there would be change incoming if that happened,hence the unknown.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Death only means a Shorter life span, Not that your paying every time your Die, or even every 10 times you die for that matter
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/346-Design-Journal-2--Soul-Selection-Destiny-Achievements-and-Soul-Mates
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/347-Design-Journal-3--Time-Aging-and-Offline-Player-Characters
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/348-Design-Journal-4--Incapacitation-Spirit-Walking-and-Permadeath
So first of all, you are likely to be incapacitated rather than outright killed in most situations. If you are killed, the only way you will suffer perma-death is if you can't get back to your body. Having a soul mate will help in that regard, and you aren't likely to have a problem returning to your body until your character is old in any case.
Characters will live between 10 and 16 real-world months. So roughly once per year, you will have to pay $20 for a new character. Nothing other people do will significantly alter that.
Regarding your scenario where you do something to piss off another guild, don't be an ass to other people and you won't have that problem.
Companies need to go back to subscription model gaming and let the players play the game the way it's meant to be played and not play it driven by real life money.
I'm actually very interested in how the pay-for-soul model impacts the community and players. Do they take deaths more seriously now in a manner that makes random non-story pk something that completely ostracizes players? Does it create 'real' in-game villains for the community to rally against? Does the model itself push the game into 'carebear' land? It's untried outside of old arcade gaming and is a very interesting experiment.
My concern is from the business standpoint,
- A buy to play of $40 and pay $40 a year in souls for a base of 20k players only nets 1.6M which barely keeps the lights on.
- A buy to play of $40 with 1 month free, then $20 a month sub with a base of 20k players nets 5.2M annually which means the company can grow and the game can grow.
You can play with the numbers, but the simple matter is the pay/per/soul model doesn't make business sense. For reference, in 2014, GW2 had an average revenue per user of $66 ($46 + box price) with roughly 500k users, and that's with a cash shop.
Realistically are we looking at over 50K-100K users? the number to really make the first model an option? Can Soulbound even afford to support that many users? Is management trained in dealing with highly seasonal cash flow models?
As much as I'd love to see the experimental model in action, is it worth risking the whole dream?
I believe the majority of the player base would rather pay $40/box+20/mo for a good quality game than <$60/year for yet another mediocre offering.
As for the main subject on the business model, I especially like Jeromy Walsh's explanation on why they chose the model they did: Character death creates the opportunity for a unique business model: "CoE uses sophisticated AI, and programmable OPC scripts. This means that while your character is "alive", they're in the world consuming CPU cycles. It makes sense that since your character never logs out, you pay for your CPU usage. The easiest way to do that is to pay per character. When your character dies, if you don't seed a new character with your soul, you don't pay any more. It also costs us nothing more". Source can be found on the Wiki page linked above.
Yes, we know that people are still out there that will pay absurd amounts of money to play subscription based MMOs but the subscriber base of those games is getting smaller and smaller, and based on the amount of new games in development that are trying to work around the old business models, I think most everyone would agree that the subscription based model is becoming vastly unpopular with those who have dropped the games that do use that model. Lets face it, people don't look for games that tell them they not only have to pay $50-$60 for the game (plus additional money for each expansion- COE will have no expansions by the way) but also pay an additional $15 per 30 days of play. The above quote states that they don't want their decisions in game to be driven by their real life financial situation but that's not a great argument when people are looking at a recurring and unavoidable $15/month subscription to keep playing, which when added up could be worth a decent graphics card upgrade or an extra car payment.
I personally prefer that if it eliminates the cash-shop - even the cosmetics.
It is unpopular among the failed projects, true. But the existence of EVE Online, WoW, FFXIV shows they are not getting unpopular. Even when they have lost players they didn't lose them to their business model.
Redact the MOBAs because they are not MMOs- how many people are playing ALL the other F2P titles compared to the sum of those 3 titles?
If $15 guarantees you contents and progress in a game you'd enjoy it is the cheapest form of entertainment then. Plus you'd pay less than $180 if you sub for a year.
Reward Seekers: Those who are not concerned with the lose of spark, because they see the end reward.
Risk Avoiders: Those who are only concerned with the loss of spark, and dont look to the end reward.
The size of their market is only the first category, and it is not certain how big that is.
The second issue is that this monetization is not easily/simply conveyed to the end users. This means that even if people are potentially part of the market, they may not see it... because the concepts, and how this works is not conveyed to them in a way that they easily understand.
Because of these two issues, people will try the game blind, then fall into one of the two categories, and those in the first category will enjoy the game.... while those in the second will not. This is likely to artificially reduce the playbase due to uncertainty, and mixed reviews.
Of course, before any of that can happen a lot of people will have to pledge at least between $20-$200 to crowdfunding for the game's development.
* more info, screenshots and videos here
A game costs a ton of money to run, and while Soulbound may not care much for profit, I will assume they want some and not a loss, or such a loss that they can't keep the game online.
Basically, if Soulbound only gets a playbase of 20K people (which I'm perfectly happy with), can they still run this game with the current business model?
Subscription or pay per life is essentially the same thing. It will work out similarly because your OPCs are essentially NPCs which a traditional MMO carries as an overhead anyway. Many players won't play non-stop for a year. As such they will be paying for 1 year up front. You will have a very cheap game to play IF you play, otherwise your per month cost probably ends up being similar to a traditional pay per month.
So tired of this argument that "people with more money" will have an advantage. Get over it, that is life. Yes if you are willing to shell out a lot more in order to be a tard then fine, more money for the developers and at least you are paying for it. As long as the percentage of players that do that is relatively minor so that the overall impact on the game is positive it is worth it.
From their FAQ:
To me this says real life money will influence the game and that is not a game I want want to be a part of then. I have the money - I would willing pay more than the standard 15/month - however when people can buy in game currency I am out.
Posting here in case the developers would like this feedback.