Feign Death Pulling, from unintended play to game mechanic

Sinist

I remember the early days of EQ when pulling started to be used. At first, FD was supposed to be a mechanic to save ones behind  and to be honest, I initially thought FD to be a skill that was a waste because I never thought it could be reliable enough to be of use (I was wrong, boy was I wrong). The idea of using it for pulling was not intended and even early on considered an exploit. I remember Brad's discussion on the topic back then and even attempts with Velious to curb it. I was a Test server monk and had the pleasure of working with some of the devs testing the Velious code back then as well.

What was amazing about this emergent play is that it became a very intensive and art based skill. Monks were sought for their ability to discern patterns in mob behavior in the environment and manipulate it to be able to serve up mobs on a platter for easy digestion. Many people in the groups thought this boring because they only got to see the results of a pullers effort, but make no mistake, it was on the edge of your seat detailed and very skilled work. In fact, other classes began to mess with mob manipulation to which provided more depth in the art of pulling (a rogue taught me many things about mob behavior that greatly helped in being able to split mobs that some said could not be split).

Anyway, my point is that pulling in EQ became a full time role, a major part of the game play and as I explained it had a lot of depth to learning it.

What I would like to see is that this mechanic become more... in Pantheon. Not just what we learned in EQ with mob pathing, AI mechanics, and various ways to use the environment and pathing to our benefit, but... rather to actually see pulling have AI directly and specifically targetted as if it were a full skill and mechanic to the game.

That is, I would like to see more tools for the puller and to have mob behaviors act in such a way as to require timed and situational use of those tools. When I say tools, I am not talking about things like root, harmony, etc... I am talking about specific reactive features that require the puller to pay attention for situational use and react to a given pull behavior mid pull in order to entice a single pull.

I would love to see these tools not just be for monks, but maybe something that a monk and a rogue would work together with to be able to achieve a successful pull. I am not saying make a rogue a puller, I am saying some content should be designed in a way that both classes tools will be required to successfully entice a mob away from a group without "bringing down the entire house" on them. Pulling skills, sub skills for the monk with rogue tools adding depth and complexity to the pulling game.

Anyway, another "thought" to chew on.

Gyva02

Sinist said:

I remember the early days of EQ when pulling started to be used. At first, FD was supposed to be a mechanic to save ones behind  and to be honest, I initially thought FD to be a skill that was a waste because I never thought it could be reliable enough to be of use (I was wrong, boy was I wrong). The idea of using it for pulling was not intended and even early on considered an exploit. I remember Brad's discussion on the topic back then and even attempts with Velious to curb it. I was a Test server monk and had the pleasure of working with some of the devs testing the Velious code back then as well.

What was amazing about this emergent play is that it became a very intensive and art based skill. Monks were sought for their ability to discern patterns in mob behavior in the environment and manipulate it to be able to serve up mobs on a platter for easy digestion. Many people in the groups thought this boring because they only got to see the results of a pullers effort, but make no mistake, it was on the edge of your seat detailed and very skilled work. In fact, other classes began to mess with mob manipulation to which provided more depth in the art of pulling (a rogue taught me many things about mob behavior that greatly helped in being able to split mobs that some said could not be split).

Anyway, my point is that pulling in EQ became a full time role, a major part of the game play and as I explained it had a lot of depth to learning it.

What I would like to see is that this mechanic become more... in Pantheon. Not just what we learned in EQ with mob pathing, AI mechanics, and various ways to use the environment and pathing to our benefit, but... rather to actually see pulling have AI directly and specifically targetted as if it were a full skill and mechanic to the game.

That is, I would like to see more tools for the puller and to have mob behaviors act in such a way as to require timed and situational use of those tools. When I say tools, I am not talking about things like root, harmony, etc... I am talking about specific reactive features that require the puller to pay attention for situational use and react to a given pull behavior mid pull in order to entice a single pull.

I would love to see these tools not just be for monks, but maybe something that a monk and a rogue would work together with to be able to achieve a successful pull. I am not saying make a rogue a puller, I am saying some content should be designed in a way that both classes tools will be required to successfully entice a mob away from a group without "bringing down the entire house" on them. Pulling skills, sub skills for the monk with rogue tools adding depth and complexity to the pulling game.

Anyway, another "thought" to chew on.

Pulling was actually called luring and it was supposed to be used from day one as its in the original game guide that came with EQ back in 1999. Here's a link where someone has scanned and uploaded the original booklet and actually talking about luring and how pulling is the wrong term. Lots of other cool info too. You'll have to do a quick register to see the photos. 
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212796

Sinist

Gyva02 said:

Sinist said:

I remember the early days of EQ when pulling started to be used. At first, FD was supposed to be a mechanic to save ones behind  and to be honest, I initially thought FD to be a skill that was a waste because I never thought it could be reliable enough to be of use (I was wrong, boy was I wrong). The idea of using it for pulling was not intended and even early on considered an exploit. I remember Brad's discussion on the topic back then and even attempts with Velious to curb it. I was a Test server monk and had the pleasure of working with some of the devs testing the Velious code back then as well.

What was amazing about this emergent play is that it became a very intensive and art based skill. Monks were sought for their ability to discern patterns in mob behavior in the environment and manipulate it to be able to serve up mobs on a platter for easy digestion. Many people in the groups thought this boring because they only got to see the results of a pullers effort, but make no mistake, it was on the edge of your seat detailed and very skilled work. In fact, other classes began to mess with mob manipulation to which provided more depth in the art of pulling (a rogue taught me many things about mob behavior that greatly helped in being able to split mobs that some said could not be split).

Anyway, my point is that pulling in EQ became a full time role, a major part of the game play and as I explained it had a lot of depth to learning it.

What I would like to see is that this mechanic become more... in Pantheon. Not just what we learned in EQ with mob pathing, AI mechanics, and various ways to use the environment and pathing to our benefit, but... rather to actually see pulling have AI directly and specifically targetted as if it were a full skill and mechanic to the game.

That is, I would like to see more tools for the puller and to have mob behaviors act in such a way as to require timed and situational use of those tools. When I say tools, I am not talking about things like root, harmony, etc... I am talking about specific reactive features that require the puller to pay attention for situational use and react to a given pull behavior mid pull in order to entice a single pull.

I would love to see these tools not just be for monks, but maybe something that a monk and a rogue would work together with to be able to achieve a successful pull. I am not saying make a rogue a puller, I am saying some content should be designed in a way that both classes tools will be required to successfully entice a mob away from a group without "bringing down the entire house" on them. Pulling skills, sub skills for the monk with rogue tools adding depth and complexity to the pulling game.

Anyway, another "thought" to chew on.

Pulling was actually called luring and it was supposed to be used from day one as its in the original game guide that came with EQ back in 1999. Here's a link where someone has scanned and uploaded the original booklet and actually talking about luring and how pulling is the wrong term. Lots of other cool info too. You'll have to do a quick register to see the photos. 
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212796

That is a Kunark manual, not an original one (they also don't give the original monk class description which mentions monks having the ability to do light avoidance tanking). Also, Luring is not pulling/splitting. Luring simply refers to picking a safe spot and taking the mob there to fight it (as it clearly pointed out in that description). Notice there is no mention of splitting mobs? 

Pulling (as monks referred to it) was the act of learning to split up groups of mobs by using various techniques such as Feign death, obstacle impeding, warping, etc... It was not an intended mechanic and was not openly accepted early in EQ. As I said, Velious actually implemented special anti-pulling code at the time to try and stop splitting mobs in some areas based on their memory.

For instance, in early EQ, a mob would often have a very large memory interval to when they could remember you after you feigned death. It could lead to some extremely nasty trains and some interesting exploits. You could pull a set of mobs, FD to split them, then up to an hour later the other mob sitting at its spawn point could all of a sudden remember and bring the whole dungeon down on you. It was easier to split back then, and you could avoid the memory issue if you logged out.

With Velious, they changed the way that memory wipes worked. Mobs would remember within a very short interval which made splitting much harder (ie with a large interval, timing between mobs was very easy as most wouldn't remember so you could pull, then drop, time them, split them, and peel them further apart pretty easily). Velious code caused them to remember almost instantly so there was very little opportunity to create the split which is why a lot of monks had problems pulling in Velious due to these issues.

Point is, pulling has always been "pulling", luring isn't what that was.

Gyva02

Wasn't saying a Monks FD should be called luring, just adding a tid bit of info about the term "luring" being in the guide back in the day but it didn't catch and people used the term pulling anyways. Trying to hunt down the first guide that came with EQ but no luck yet. Curious if a section about luring is also in that one... 

TheJoda

I still recall pulling or assisting in pulls for Tormax and Dain as my Necro.  This mechanic whether intended or not was a great part of the EQ experience. 

Sinist

Gyva02 said:

Wasn't saying a Monks FD should be called luring, just adding a tid bit of info about the term "luring" being in the guide back in the day but it didn't catch and people used the term pulling anyways. Trying to hunt down the first guide that came with EQ but no luck yet. Curious if a section about luring is also in that one... 

Good luck, the original manual that shipped with the game (careful with digital versions as those have been updated) is what the monks argued over during the role of a monk back during the monk nerf (I might still have it, but it would take some digging). People said monks were just a DPS class which was not the entire original design of the class as they did have some defensive capabilities, but very special and limited (it spikey avoidance tank).

Sinist

TheJoda said:

I still recall pulling or assisting in pulls for Tormax and Dain as my Necro.  This mechanic whether intended or not was a great part of the EQ experience. 

Yep, though some of us monks could pull Tormax solo, I used to do it all the time for people who wanted to do faction turn ins.

Dain was a fun one. I loved doing a multi-monk chain pull to the zone line where we fought him.

Kilrain

Things like this are better when the devs don't intend for them to be there. When intentional, it takes away from both the satisfaction of learning it, but also opens it up to everyone equally. Good "exploits" are as much a part of game exploration as anything else.

Sinist

Kilrain said:

Things like this are better when the devs don't intend for them to be there. When intentional, it takes away from both the satisfaction of learning it, but also opens it up to everyone equally. Good "exploits" are as much a part of game exploration as anything else.

True, but we have years of this knowledge, it would be nice for them to make pulling a little more interesting. I already mastered pulling over EQ and several games over the years, it is time to expand on it and make it a more involved game play mechanic rather than just various exploits.

Kilrain

Sinist said:

Kilrain said:

Things like this are better when the devs don't intend for them to be there. When intentional, it takes away from both the satisfaction of learning it, but also opens it up to everyone equally. Good "exploits" are as much a part of game exploration as anything else.

True, but we have years of this knowledge, it would be nice for them to make pulling a little more interesting. I already mastered pulling over EQ and several games over the years, it is time to expand on it and make it a more involved game play mechanic rather than just various exploits.

Rather than focusing on pulling, focus on making the mobs smarter, change their behavior from what we're used to. Perhaps even make their behavior change so what worked for pulling prior would no longer work.

Sinist

Kilrain said:

Sinist said:

Kilrain said:

Things like this are better when the devs don't intend for them to be there. When intentional, it takes away from both the satisfaction of learning it, but also opens it up to everyone equally. Good "exploits" are as much a part of game exploration as anything else.

True, but we have years of this knowledge, it would be nice for them to make pulling a little more interesting. I already mastered pulling over EQ and several games over the years, it is time to expand on it and make it a more involved game play mechanic rather than just various exploits.

Rather than focusing on pulling, focus on making the mobs smarter, change their behavior from what we're used to. Perhaps even make their behavior change so what worked for pulling prior would no longer work.

That is part of what I was suggesting in my OP. You can put in all kinds of AI behaviors that would require special tools and creative uses to be able to achieve a clean pull. I would even put in "oh crap" mechanics in the AI that would force a pull to go bad as well (kind of how a FD fail can cause some serious issues and create some really stressful counter solutions).

I do like the "learning behavior" aspect of the mob. Maybe have it and mobs it converses with learn and refuse to be fooled by certain techniques for a period of time (similar to the whole memory mechanic of EQ). Nice suggestion!

edit:

Oh, how about what you mentioned, but even better, give them some AI possibility that can even set a trap for the puller? Then, that is where having a rogue along using their special tools to assist the puller could help. Maybe rogue tools of subterfuge, misdirection, etc...

Dullahan

There was a good thread on this on the official forums a few weeks back. Players actually went through nearly every tactic used to pull mobs.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2206/pulling

Felwit

Pulling was used much more broadly in the community to mean more than just FD pulling. The puller was typically used to bring mobs to a central camp and could have been nothing more than a Warrior with a bow and plenty of arrows.

I do like the idea of having the more complicated pulling game, requiring Lulls, watching pathing and aggro ranges, and even use of FD in order to split pulls. But I would like to avoid content where the whole raid suddenly stops and kills back-spawns for long periods of time while 3 or so FD-capable toons work on splitting up the next room. I also like some linking of mobs, where certain groups cannot be split, just CCed or off-tanked.

Sinist

Felwit said:

 But I would like to avoid content where the whole raid suddenly stops and kills back-spawns for long periods of time while 3 or so FD-capable toons work on splitting up the next room. I also like some linking of mobs, where certain groups cannot be split, just CCed or off-tanked.

That is why you make it a larger mechanic than it was in previous games. For instance, in your raid example, maybe a failed pull or improper pull results in an alarm and the raid then has to deal with guards showing up while the pullers work it out. You could even take the idea I mentioned with a rogue/monk team and translate that to the entire raid. They just aren't dealing with pulling the mobs, be handling alarms, investigators, and additional pathers and mechanics that occur in pulling raid based mobs.

This could even be interesting mechanics that non-raid groups could trigger around raid mobs to experience some of the phases of a raid event, but not actually do the entire event.

An example would be that while pulling, certain events occur as a matter of scripts. First alarm beings investigating guards. next brings a named mob to check on them, continuing this concept with larger and more difficult scripted encounters. The non-raid groups would eventually get to the point where they couldn't handle it and would have to "hide out" or the like to avoid causing a full on raid encounter to occur.

Now, add in numerous elements of play with rogues/monks pulling, and other classes being able to step in and apply "ghetto" tactics to assist, you could have some interesting situations.

Amsai

It will be interesting what VR does with the Mob behaviors they talk about on the main page. This plus the atmospheres could add a level of complexity to how we approach everything.

I remember in XI how crazy it could get in certain zones with the different mob aggros (by sight, smell, sound, blood (low health), magic). In a mixed dungeon things could get ugly real quick if you werent on your toes. Anyways, good times and I hope to see that kind of thing in Pantheon

carotid

Sinist said:

Gyva02 said:

Wasn't saying a Monks FD should be called luring, just adding a tid bit of info about the term "luring" being in the guide back in the day but it didn't catch and people used the term pulling anyways. Trying to hunt down the first guide that came with EQ but no luck yet. Curious if a section about luring is also in that one... 

Good luck, the original manual that shipped with the game (careful with digital versions as those have been updated) is what the monks argued over during the role of a monk back during the monk nerf (I might still have it, but it would take some digging). People said monks were just a DPS class which was not the entire original design of the class as they did have some defensive capabilities, but very special and limited (it spikey avoidance tank).

Speaking of EQ original manual, I have the original box and the manual :-) Need me to look something up?

Sinist

carotid said:

Sinist said:

Gyva02 said:

Wasn't saying a Monks FD should be called luring, just adding a tid bit of info about the term "luring" being in the guide back in the day but it didn't catch and people used the term pulling anyways. Trying to hunt down the first guide that came with EQ but no luck yet. Curious if a section about luring is also in that one... 

Good luck, the original manual that shipped with the game (careful with digital versions as those have been updated) is what the monks argued over during the role of a monk back during the monk nerf (I might still have it, but it would take some digging). People said monks were just a DPS class which was not the entire original design of the class as they did have some defensive capabilities, but very special and limited (it spikey avoidance tank).

Speaking of EQ original manual, I have the original box and the manual :-) Need me to look something up?

Gyva02 was wanting to see if there was anything in there about monks being pullers, or what it says about "luring" and the like.

I said that on release, monk pulling (ie FD splitting) was not an intended mechanic and design. The original description should make no mention of such, nor should the manual describe FD pulling/splitting as a play feature.

Also, if you can, show the original monk class description. The original manual from the original release box described a monk not as a sole DPS focused class that they were eventually described as after Kunark (and later). If I remember right, there was a basic mention of their ability to be defensive in nature as well.

A monks role as full on DPS/Puller came after the monk nerf due to social pressure to force the class into such a niche as well as FD splitting becoming an emergent role for the class. Remember, pulling was not a mechanic on release, so if monks were just a DPS class and EQ prided itself on having classes bringing unique roles to the group, what would be the point of a rogue? Especially when they could only DPS from behind? The answer is, Monks were a somewhat specialized hybrid. They did damage, but also were able to tank via avoidance style tanking which was spikey damage. Good for groups and some very specialized raid mobs (rampage tanking in ST), but not good as a mitigation tank.

Sinist

Amsai said:

It will be interesting what VR does with the Mob behaviors they talk about on the main page. This plus the atmospheres could add a level of complexity to how we approach everything.

I remember in XI how crazy it could get in certain zones with the different mob aggros (by sight, smell, sound, blood (low health), magic). In a mixed dungeon things could get ugly real quick if you werent on your toes. Anyways, good times and I hope to see that kind of thing in Pantheon

Yep, the best experiences people remember are not the easy wins, but the moments where things hit the fan and there is a massive struggle for survival.

Wizardry

I do like the idea of adding some skill and depth to even the simplest ideas.However EQ had some ideas of CC that imo were too easy and dumbed down the effort.

Obviously there has only been a few such games,these are my fave,in ffxi the puller had to be real good or just die.The simple reason is we fought mobs 5/6/7 sometimes even 10 levels above.So if the puller gets too close he is going to be red lining by time he returns to camp,if he draws aggro/links he is really in trouble.There really was no easy way out and often why camps were done near zone lines.

Pulling also became a TIME process,the puller had to constantly remember when spawns would come back ,perhaps even right on top of the group or while returning with a pull.

However pulling became about more than just the puller,a smart group would be able to handle 2 maybe even 3 mobs at once albeit extremely difficult past 2.That is the way i like,every single fight no matter how easy or repeating you think the cycle is,every fight carries a level of danger.

Sinist

I changed the title a bit. For some reason I kept thinking "FD pulling" when I was talking about pulling. Sorry for the confusion.

AngryElf

My EQ rogue has pulled almost as well as any monk since HoT.   The skills the OP is asking for are already there.  You can stun, mez, blur, and even make them path away.  Only exceptions are level differences and named. 

Hrimnir

Sinist said:

For instance, in early EQ, a mob would often have a very large memory interval to when they could remember you after you feigned death. It could lead to some extremely nasty trains and some interesting exploits. You could pull a set of mobs, FD to split them, then up to an hour later the other mob sitting at its spawn point could all of a sudden remember and bring the whole dungeon down on you. It was easier to split back then, and you could avoid the memory issue if you logged out.

Oh Castle Mistmoore... How i miss thee...

Raidan_EQ

Sinist said:

An example would be that while pulling, certain events occur as a matter of scripts. First alarm beings investigating guards. next brings a named mob to check on them, continuing this concept with larger and more difficult scripted encounters. The non-raid groups would eventually get to the point where they couldn't handle it and would have to "hide out" or the like to avoid causing a full on raid encounter to occur.

Not sure on your familiarity with console games, but Metal Gear Solid had an agro/alert meter similar to what you're talking about.  Basically depending on how loud you were in any given area, the patrolling guards were put on various levels of "alert status" where at first the primary patrol would check the area for you, then, if you were found, tons of guards would come running.

Also, using different "tools" such as hand to hand, silencers, etc. versus large weapons would be more beneficial as you wanted to be as stealthy as possible.

Here's a link to the wiki describing it further:

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_status

Sinist

Raidan_EQ said:

Sinist said:

An example would be that while pulling, certain events occur as a matter of scripts. First alarm beings investigating guards. next brings a named mob to check on them, continuing this concept with larger and more difficult scripted encounters. The non-raid groups would eventually get to the point where they couldn't handle it and would have to "hide out" or the like to avoid causing a full on raid encounter to occur.

Not sure on your familiarity with console games, but Metal Gear Solid had an agro/alert meter similar to what you're talking about.  Basically depending on how loud you were in any given area, the patrolling guards were put on various levels of "alert status" where at first the primary patrol would check the area for you, then, if you were found, tons of guards would come running.

Also, using different "tools" such as hand to hand, silencers, etc. versus large weapons would be more beneficial as you wanted to be as stealthy as possible.

Here's a link to the wiki describing it further:

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_status

Haven't played it since it was an 8 bit Nintendo game, but yes, things like that. I am sure many of these ideas are just experiences with various games I have seen or played over the decades.

goboygo

Kilrain said:

Things like this are better when the devs don't intend for them to be there. When intentional, it takes away from both the satisfaction of learning it, but also opens it up to everyone equally. Good "exploits" are as much a part of game exploration as anything else.

This exactly, build it hard, really really hard.  The players will find a way.  Its what we do. 

Amathe

This is one of many possible examples of fun things about EQ that may not originally have been intended, but that players liked and embraced.