One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
Grind isn't the same as repeating. People can do things repeatedly and not be bored by it. Grind is when you find something to be a chore, doing something you find dull over and over.
People don't have a problem repeating the same content if it's fun.
Gamers in Themepark games get tired of the old content all the time. Always expecting new content, which developers can't keep up with.
Yes and those gamers leave the game, play something else and come back when the new content arrives.
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Somewhere in the back of my mind, I assumed grind to mean doing something for no other primary reason than enhancing your character. It's not new, it might be enjoyable but it's not what you'd prefer to be doing.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
I think that people are looking to keep things fresh when they say they don't want a grind. I think a couple things would help this:
1. Randomize minidungeons, both in their location in the world and their layout. Many games get ruined by database fan websites (thinking wowhead, for example). Not bad per we especially when a game is new, but alt tabbing to get the answer isn't the best deal for encouraging using your brain.
2. Make character builds a game in and of itself. Playing around d with character builds keeps people invested in their character and mentally sharp ting to maxi!ize and come up with new ways to play the character
3. Puzzles and coordinates challenges in game. Puzzles are fun but can be recorded in a db. However, if you tie in alleging play, ie there are two different pressure plates required to open a door, then execution becomes the challenge to work on in a group setting, and this keeps it fresh because you will likely be with new people.
4. Player generated content. This is why I was looking forward to eqn. This is limitless entertainment, but the tools ha e to be good. And the player generated side of it will need to be separate from lore and story from the game world.
If you do those things, you won't need to have grind filler to keep people playing your game.
The definition of grind that I'm using is "Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks."
I see a lot of people who complain about it, but I'm not sure what should/does/could completely remove it.
In resource gathering, you're gonna have to get x resources a considerable amount of time. This would be considered grinding.
In crafting, you've got to create things in order to get better. Even in my favorite crafting games you had to create more than just a single item to advance.
In combat, you've got to kill things in order to advance. The more you kill the more experience you get. In many games you don't have to kill the same monsters over and over again, but a lot of people do for the simplicity of it. A sort of self imposed grind.
All of these things sound like grinding to me.
If you remove the grinding from resource gathering, crafting, and combat to name a few, do you simply remove the need for these things? Do you just get all the resources, skills and experience without having to work for it?
What's the alternative?
Within the current paradigm of game design and gamer expectation, there is no alternative. Of necessity, any attempt to simulate a persistent world will rely on the crutches of ground content. I say of necessity because the worlds, as I've stated, are simulations - they are not real worlds.
One of the essential features of the real world is its dynamic nature. Most of the content, so to speak, is independent of our individual efforts though we experience it contingently. It expresses itself in all those things we consider random and unexpected. The simulated gamer worlds are not like this. They are mere palettes, unchanging but for the discrete inputs of the software designers. To persist as they do, they either must enjoy a continuous injection of developed content, which for various reasons cannot happen, or the player must be goaded into replaying the static content that exists. And so, what we term "the grind."
Until the paradigm shifts, and the software increases sufficiently in sophistication to react to the players and modify itself on the fly, even to generating new content, then the grind is a necessary feature of the persistent simulation. That it's often executed so poorly takes nothing away from its essential nature.
The alternative is you play an "Adventure" game with a story to follow and puzzles to solve.
MMORPGs at their core are about progression, and there will always be a grind....just a matter of what flavor you prefer, and how long (or tedious) you can put up with.
If such an adventure game has an end to said adventure, what then? I think the key here, and this is perhaps the most viable way to go, is to have the story evolve. Even change as old stories end. It would help a lot of this adventure left it's mark, too. That would allow for old adventures (plot lines) to be made use of for new plot lines based on them.
So, in short, an evolving world with constant new evolution in plot taking place.
Edit to add: I'm thinking in terms of world wide plot lines rather than simply player character plots, which are just story lines (as in "quests"). World wide plot lines add more meaning, add "win" in a form of a race to solve, interest in the evolving world where the old can still mean something to the new, evolving lore, player fame, player self determined "story", etc.
Allow players to also do their own choices of "grind" as they proceed through the adventures of a much more interesting world.
It sounds like you might want to check out chronicles of Elyria..
while it is in development still, and it will have that grind element, it will have a dynamic story. That will change for you as you play it.
Visit the Chronicles of Elyria official site and the Official Wiki... an upcoming MMO from Soulbound Studios with real consequences to your actions. Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
... One of the essential features of the real world is its dynamic nature. Most of the content, so to speak, is independent of our individual efforts though we experience it contingently. ... J
So while flipping burger 1232 at work I might get attacked by orcs?
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
Are you not progressing to unlock the types of ships you can fly, modules to use, and improving the efficiency?
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
Are you not progressing to unlock the types of ships you can fly, modules to use, and improving the efficiency?
Concept is the same accept its automated.
While in the real world you experience its dynamic nature, not that of your game.
But as to your question, you could be shot by an irate customer, the stove could explode due to a gas leak, or your manager could catch you in a back room and release all of his pent up sexual frustrations. I would hope that any of those things happening would be unexpected. Games, as we currently experience them, are not like that.
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
Are you not progressing to unlock the types of ships you can fly, modules to use, and improving the efficiency?
It depends on the person's goal. Most people have that nailed down rather quickly. I don't think I've needed a new skills in the past three years. Again, grinding to top tier is not what EVE is about. It's not what most sandbox-style MMOs are about. "Grind" is almost exclusively the domain of linear gameplay/content.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
... One of the essential features of the real world is its dynamic nature. Most of the content, so to speak, is independent of our individual efforts though we experience it contingently. ... J
So while flipping burger 1232 at work I might get attacked by orcs?
I played a game like that. You could be PvP'ed while off line when you weren't logged in. You could opt-out but it was turned on by default. They got your gold if they won and you got their's if they lost. Of course you could put your gold in the bank before you logged.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
Are you not progressing to unlock the types of ships you can fly, modules to use, and improving the efficiency?
It depends on the person's goal. Most people have that nailed down rather quickly. I don't think I've needed a new skills in the past three years. Again, grinding to top tier is not what EVE is about. It's not what most sandbox-style MMOs are about. "Grind" is almost exclusively the domain of linear gameplay/content.
I said nothing about "grinding to top tier."
I'm talking about how automated the skill system is. Queue it up Mins, hours, days........ Zzzzzzzz
One way is use time consume to replace grind . For example EVE skill progression Other way is put in more gamble element . For example Diablo loot table .
How is this even appealing? You do nothing but Queue your next skill. That's so fucking lazy.
If the game was about gaining character levels or gaining skill points, then I would agree. That's not what EVE is about, though.
Are you not progressing to unlock the types of ships you can fly, modules to use, and improving the efficiency?
Concept is the same accept its automated.
While in the real world you experience its dynamic nature, not that of your game.
But as to your question, you could be shot by an irate customer, the stove could explode due to a gas leak, or your manager could catch you in a back room and release all of his pent up sexual frustrations. I would hope that any of those things happening would be unexpected. Games, as we currently experience them, are not like that.
J
I understand the nature of the game verywell. Automated skill system is as lazy as it gets.
The definition of grind that I'm using is "Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks."
I see a lot of people who complain about it, but I'm not sure what should/does/could completely remove it.
In resource gathering, you're gonna have to get x resources a considerable amount of time. This would be considered grinding.
In crafting, you've got to create things in order to get better. Even in my favorite crafting games you had to create more than just a single item to advance.
In combat, you've got to kill things in order to advance. The more you kill the more experience you get. In many games you don't have to kill the same monsters over and over again, but a lot of people do for the simplicity of it. A sort of self imposed grind.
All of these things sound like grinding to me.
If you remove the grinding from resource gathering, crafting, and combat to name a few, do you simply remove the need for these things? Do you just get all the resources, skills and experience without having to work for it?
What's the alternative?
Long ago when the stupid grind issue was brought up I decided everything was grind. Therefore, for me, there is no issue of grind as you can't escape it. Anything you create, I will call grind. I am not bothered by grind.
I think the people behind the grind issue have issues. Don't want to spend the time to figure it out, but I suspect there is something there.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I actually like Eve's system of a learning que. They should expand on it more such as double learning time weekend specials and template learning patterns that do what third party programs currently do in setting up learning to fly certain ships or going into advance trading.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The grind is because we be bombarded with quest over the past 11 years. Forced questing while more tolerable to grinding mobs has been done 10 billion times and as someone here said is mechanical. I made another post about MMORPG being refined to the point of pointlessness. You log on, create a character, get sent to introductory quest and quest x50 times with some dungeon and esports mixed in. This is could be 90% of all post 2004 MMORPG.
I think going towards the adventure side of things where only required quest would be class quest to get your abilities. Grinds can be automatic and optional. Quest should be there to enhance not a barrier to your progression or its going to a chore. Quest = progression is a bad thing in my opinion. I rather the game be about the journey than the journey being an obstacle to fleshing out your character. I want to see what X ability is like... well better blow through this story.
Grind isn't the same as repeating. People can do things repeatedly and not be bored by it. Grind is when you find something to be a chore, doing something you find dull over and over.
People don't have a problem repeating the same content if it's fun.
I think this is a pretty good definition. I find that I don't want to repeat Theme Park quest content more than twice or it becomes "grinding" per your definition. I can do dungeons a few more times, and PvP too has a finite limit before it becomes "grinding." As in I am grinding my teeth with the design decisions made in building the game.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Offline skill and resource progression doesn't seem like a good alternative to me. If all you have to do is 'nothing' to progress, it seems like you miss out on the game itself.
You can make everything a lot more difficult. Almost Dark Souls style. Instead of "grinding" 100 monsters all day, conquer 3 of them. Make areas or dungeons exceedingly difficult with save points but get easier and easier as you fail so you'll eventually get through (but not for nearly as much XP). Reset difficulty over time so you can always come back to them at higher level and try to beat it on the first (most valuable) try. You still make XP just for trying them and more for how well you do so its never a waste of time but far more satisfying then spamming 4 keys all day.
Instead of 50 quest markers when I enter town. Make me go around and pick up the 3, or I can only have one major and 3 minor quests at a time. Those quests take a long time. They involve going to distant places, doing complicated things that only have a small part involving fighting to get to the next step which is also takes some time to figure out. Its a quest not an errand. Players in your group should get XP bonus when you complete a step in your quest (You get XP at every little step!) but they don't get your quest automatically.
Quests and what mobs are spawning where should have a random and world scope to them. Dragons used to be in the XYZ mountains but no longer, now there are goblins there because of "Story"
Comments
To some, unfortunately, grind means everything one has to do to become max level and then obtain the best gear.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
1. Randomize minidungeons, both in their location in the world and their layout. Many games get ruined by database fan websites (thinking wowhead, for example). Not bad per we especially when a game is new, but alt tabbing to get the answer isn't the best deal for encouraging using your brain.
2. Make character builds a game in and of itself. Playing around d with character builds keeps people invested in their character and mentally sharp ting to maxi!ize and come up with new ways to play the character
3. Puzzles and coordinates challenges in game. Puzzles are fun but can be recorded in a db. However, if you tie in alleging play, ie there are two different pressure plates required to open a door, then execution becomes the challenge to work on in a group setting, and this keeps it fresh because you will likely be with new people.
4. Player generated content. This is why I was looking forward to eqn. This is limitless entertainment, but the tools ha e to be good. And the player generated side of it will need to be separate from lore and story from the game world.
If you do those things, you won't need to have grind filler to keep people playing your game.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Within the current paradigm of game design and gamer expectation, there is no alternative. Of necessity, any attempt to simulate a persistent world will rely on the crutches of ground content. I say of necessity because the worlds, as I've stated, are simulations - they are not real worlds.
One of the essential features of the real world is its dynamic nature. Most of the content, so to speak, is independent of our individual efforts though we experience it contingently. It expresses itself in all those things we consider random and unexpected. The simulated gamer worlds are not like this. They are mere palettes, unchanging but for the discrete inputs of the software designers. To persist as they do, they either must enjoy a continuous injection of developed content, which for various reasons cannot happen, or the player must be goaded into replaying the static content that exists. And so, what we term "the grind."
Until the paradigm shifts, and the software increases sufficiently in sophistication to react to the players and modify itself on the fly, even to generating new content, then the grind is a necessary feature of the persistent simulation. That it's often executed so poorly takes nothing away from its essential nature.
J
while it is in development still, and it will have that grind element, it will have a dynamic story. That will change for you as you play it.
Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
Concept is the same accept its automated.
While in the real world you experience its dynamic nature, not that of your game.
But as to your question, you could be shot by an irate customer, the stove could explode due to a gas leak, or your manager could catch you in a back room and release all of his pent up sexual frustrations. I would hope that any of those things happening would be unexpected. Games, as we currently experience them, are not like that.
J
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I said nothing about "grinding to top tier."
I'm talking about how automated the skill system is. Queue it up Mins, hours, days........ Zzzzzzzz
I understand the nature of the game verywell. Automated skill system is as lazy as it gets.
Long ago when the stupid grind issue was brought up I decided everything was grind. Therefore, for me, there is no issue of grind as you can't escape it. Anything you create, I will call grind. I am not bothered by grind.
I think the people behind the grind issue have issues. Don't want to spend the time to figure it out, but I suspect there is something there.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I think going towards the adventure side of things where only required quest would be class quest to get your abilities. Grinds can be automatic and optional. Quest should be there to enhance not a barrier to your progression or its going to a chore. Quest = progression is a bad thing in my opinion. I rather the game be about the journey than the journey being an obstacle to fleshing out your character. I want to see what X ability is like... well better blow through this story.
I self identify as a monkey.
You can make everything a lot more difficult. Almost Dark Souls style. Instead of "grinding" 100 monsters all day, conquer 3 of them. Make areas or dungeons exceedingly difficult with save points but get easier and easier as you fail so you'll eventually get through (but not for nearly as much XP). Reset difficulty over time so you can always come back to them at higher level and try to beat it on the first (most valuable) try. You still make XP just for trying them and more for how well you do so its never a waste of time but far more satisfying then spamming 4 keys all day.
Instead of 50 quest markers when I enter town. Make me go around and pick up the 3, or I can only have one major and 3 minor quests at a time. Those quests take a long time. They involve going to distant places, doing complicated things that only have a small part involving fighting to get to the next step which is also takes some time to figure out. Its a quest not an errand. Players in your group should get XP bonus when you complete a step in your quest (You get XP at every little step!) but they don't get your quest automatically.
Quests and what mobs are spawning where should have a random and world scope to them. Dragons used to be in the XYZ mountains but no longer, now there are goblins there because of "Story"
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!