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They built a team from only 8 people to 270 in short time, that alone is a massive accomplishment

13

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  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,198

    This really is all you need to know to put things in perspective. 


    but hey some people won´t let facts get into their way :chuffed:

    For me it´s pretty obvious, I don´t expect the commercial release to happen before Q2/2017 and I´m perfectly fine with that, it will be worth the wait.

    So your counter argument to the claim that they've delivered very little and don't meet their deadlines is to provide a 19-year history that proves not only were their deadlines ridiculous, if they knew what they were doing in the first place they would have never set such grossly unachievable deadlines. 

    Got it. 


  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 3,003
    Erillion said:


    Every successful Kickstarter computer game project there ever was =
    Date on which consumer could first preorder the game being Day 1.
    Thats the nature of Kickstarter and crowdfunding computer game projects ...

    Your point is ?



    Have fun

    It was mostly a response to the OP, who seemed to include the original jpg as a means of implying that it would not be so unusual, compared to other ambitious MMOs, if Star Citizen were to spend another 3-5 years in development.

    That graphic is really missing a key bit of info, which is that Star Citizen began accepting money from the public at large (similar to what other ambitious MMOs do when they began taking 'pre-orders') at least 2y 7mo prior to launch... therefore spending additional lengths of time in development would not make it as similar in profile to the other MMOs listed as the graphic implies.

    Since this is a crowdfunded game, as you point out, they didn't really have any other way of doing it.  However, I find the original graphic a bit disingenuous.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    LynxJSA said:

    So your counter argument to the claim that they've delivered very little and don't meet their deadlines is to provide a 19-year history that proves not only were their deadlines ridiculous, if they knew what they were doing in the first place they would have never set such grossly unachievable deadlines. 

    Got it. 

    Hey, in his world it makes complete sense.  Who cares that CR said the game would release in 2014.  Who cares if CR said in 2013 that stretch goals would not delay the release.  Who cares if the actual data is against his argument.  All that matters is if they can find that one little piece of information that taken in the right context could actually support their position. 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    edited November 2015


    Fact is this project (and many others) use a funding mechanism I disagree with.

     I won't give Star Citizen any consideration as a MMO to purchase/play, or any other MMO that uses crowdfunding either. Even after it's launched if I know a MMO utilized crowdfunding I won't purchase/play it.

    Yes, this place is crowdfunding hate central, you and your likeminded friends must be very much in love with EA and Micro$oft.


    Gotta love publisher suit products and filling the pockets of shareholders, because that is what people know and what they are used to, they love Microsoft and EA and their products funded with blood money from stock exchange gamblers, microtransaction addicts and fat moneybag investors.

    I prefer a product that is made and funded by fan donations and made for fans, no suits no stocks no Wall Street gamblers no publishers. It´s CHOICE either put in 45$ for the game price or any other amount they like to contribute. Hate crowdfunding all you want, its none of your business what people do with their cash or who they support.

    I know people who bought 120K $ worth of EA shares, strange how no one asks for sanity there?
    I really hope publishers go belly up sooner than later, the vultures will disappear and go back to doing suit jobs in vulture banks where they belong, they have nothing to do with games.

    The special interest groups can rant about the rise of crowdfunding all day long, people see through the agenda. There is no suit investor monopoly on financing products anymore. Tough luck.



    No actually I dislike EA and Microsoft more than Crowdfunding... because in my opinion both have forgotten they exist to serve the customer. They surely haven't forgotten the profit part. I wouldn't have a problem with them if they remembered to care for the customer as well, and in my opinion they don't.

    I actually don't agree with or support Free Market Capitalism, but that economic system won't get un-entrenched now unless the Earth suffers an ELE or some other planet wide collapse. I simply attempt to try to live with it even though I disagree with it. I figure we're stuck with it.

    As for Crowdfunding it has almost no guarantees whatsoever, in my country it has even less than a non-profit charity is held to by Law, and that is the source of my distrust with Crowdfunding in general. If the laws held the organizations that use Crowdfunding to some kind of reasonable fiduciary accountability I wouldn't object to is as I do.

    I would find it fantastic if there was MMO projects that are funded by fans, made for MMO fans... but I am not convinced one iota that that situation exists with any crowdfunded MMO, human nature being what it always is.

    Hate me for what I said if you wish. Sometimes it's hard for me to communicate exactly what I wish to in a manner others can understand without confusion, not to mention that my opinions rub people the wrong way often.

    and I am no "suit investor". I can't prove that on this website. You'll have to take my word for it.


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Erillion said:
    Gdemami said:
    Erillion said:
    Again, that is a quote from a journalist, not a direct quote from Chris Roberts.
    https://www.simplygon.com/news/cloud-imperium-games-chooses-simplygon
    Cloud Imperium Chief Creative Officer and Co-founder Chris Roberts said, “When I was first prototyping Star Citizen back in 2011 I did a lot of research on various LOD processes as I knew this would be important considering the large poly counts I was aiming for.

    Nope.

    Read : >>>"...When I was first prototyping Star Citizen back in 2011 I did a lot of research ...."<<<<

    Operative word being:  " I "

    So in an interview where CR is discussing a coding issue, he refers to himself doing the work and then that magically means no one else was involved?  So when you come home from work and your wife asks what you did all day at your job, do you now include what everyone did at work that day? 

    But, playing the devils advocate...  Lets say you are correct and take everything CR says literally.  Then that means when CR said this on his own Star Citizen website back on Oct of 2012:

    "We’ve invested our own money, along with some angel funding over the past year in order to build the technical and visual prototype that shows just how Star Citizen is going to push the limits of PC games."

    He used the word "We've" so there must have been more than just himself working on the project for the past year and it must confirm that he "and others" where working on this project a YEAR before the 2012 announcement.

    It was not a journalist saying this
    He used the word "We've"
    He specifically used the words "over the last year"
    He certainly was not misquoted on his own website

    Did I miss any of your previous excuses?

    Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20121015042706/http://robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen/http://



    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • jonp200jonp200 Member UncommonPosts: 455
    Yeah in this case; size doesn't matter.... They have burned through a ton of money and there have been a few reports of spending it inappropriately.  The future is not bright...

    Comparing this to SWTOR doesn't really work either.  That was made by a well-established studio that had never made a MMO backed by a publicly traded company (EA) with all of the checks, balances, and accountability that comes with working for a company that is traded.  Frankly, it was the end of the Bioware founders when the game didn't perform as expected. (It has since increased profits)

    SC is crowd-funded made by a former industry veteran who has never made a MMO with ZERO accountability.  Nobody is holding the leash.

    Seaspite
    Playing ESO on my X-Box


  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Talonsin said:
    *** stuff ***

    >>> Did I miss any>>>>

    Yes. The very same quote you mention has been discussed here only a few dozen times already.

    The short version .... Chris Roberts says in OCT 2012 the words "... we..." and "... over the past year...".
    With CIG having been founded no sooner than April 2012 that can only refer to the year of 2012, not 2011.
    He himself - personally - has most likely worked on this since 2004 (Freelancer). So he himself for sure has worked on the concepts for SC in 2011 and even sooner.


    Have fun
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    Erillion said:
      So he himself for sure has worked on the concepts for SC in 2011 and even sooner.

    So in your own words it is now safe to say this game has been in development since 2011 and even later.  Thanks for finally conceding the point. 
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Talonsin said:
    Erillion said:
      So he himself for sure has worked on the concepts for SC in 2011 and even sooner.

    So in your own words it is now safe to say this game has been in development since 2011 and even later.  Thanks for finally conceding the point. 
    I concede nothing.

    One guy thinking  about making a better version of an old hit game  is NOT equivalent to "start of development".

    If you believe THAT you are VERY naive.


    Have fun

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited November 2015
    Erillion said:
    I concede nothing.

    One guy thinking  about making a better version of an old hit game  is NOT equivalent to "start of development".

    If you believe THAT you are VERY naive.


    Have fun

    Having a prototype is not "thinking about".

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Gdemami said:
    Having a prototype is not "thinking about".

    The prototype was developed together with others in 2012. Thats why CIG was founded in April 2012.


    Have fun
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    Erillion said:
    The prototype was developed together with others in 2012. Thats why CIG was founded in April 2012.


    Have fun
    He clearly stated he was prototyping the game in 2011...
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Gdemami said:
    Erillion said:
    The prototype was developed together with others in 2012. Thats why CIG was founded in April 2012.


    Have fun
    He clearly stated he was prototyping the game in 2011...
    Link please.

    And I am pretty sure i know which quote comes now ... it has only been mentioned here like 70 times in the last 3 years.


    Have fun
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited November 2015
    Erillion said:
    Link please.

    And I am pretty sure i know which quote comes now ... it has only been mentioned here like 70 times in the last 3 years.

    Again...? How many times do we need to go through this?

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6784457/#Comment_6784457
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    edited November 2015
    Gdemami said:
    Erillion said:
    Link please.

    And I am pretty sure i know which quote comes now ... it has only been mentioned here like 70 times in the last 3 years.

    Again...? How many times do we need to go through this?

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/comment/6784457/#Comment_6784457
    Deja vu....

    And once again ... with feeling:


    Read : >>>"...When I was first prototyping Star Citizen back in 2011 I did a lot of research ...."<<<<

    Operative word being:  " I "

    That Chris Roberts himself is personally working on this since 2004, let alone 2011 is not surprising. It is the continuation of his ideas for Freelancer. We are talking about a team working on it ... and CIG was founded in April 2012 according to their own official homepage ("About us section").


    Have fun

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited November 2015
    Erillion said:
    And once again ... with feeling:


    Read : >>>"...When I was first prototyping Star Citizen back in 2011 I did a lot of research ...."<<<<

    Operative word being:  " I "

    That Chris Roberts himself is personally working on this since 2004, let alone 2011 is not surprising. It is the continuation of his ideas for Freelancer. We are talking about a team working on it ... and CIG was founded in April 2012 according to their own official homepage ("About us section").


    Have fun

    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through. Are you here to actually discuss anything or you just post same crap over and over without listening what others say?

    1) Start of the development is not conditioned by founding a company - you can do lots of work without even having an office or legal founding.

    2) Start of the development is not conditioned by number of people working on the project - projects come in all sort of scales, even in scale of sole developer.

    3) Even in 2015 it is still "the continuation of his ideas for Freelancer" - you are making a moot point.


    He started to seriously work on SC in 2011, prototyping, researching and setting up for the company resulting in it's establishment in 4/2012.

    Founding a company is just a step, not the first one tho.

  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Gdemami said:
    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through.
    Many times, it seems.  Or we could agree to disagree.

    Chris Roberts started to work on Star Citizen a long time ago, even before 2011. By HIMSELF. In 2012 he got help from his friends. In April he founded CIG. And unpaid friends helping out became paid employees (7 at the beginning).

    Have fun 
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through.
    Many times, it seems.  Or we could agree to disagree.

    Chris Roberts started to work on Star Citizen a long time ago, even before 2011. By HIMSELF. In 2012 he got help from his friends. In April he founded CIG. And unpaid friends helping out became paid employees (7 at the beginning).

    Have fun 
    You're still skipping around the point that he was working on the prototype and doing research in 2011. Doesn't matter if only he was doing the work, that's still working on the game. 

    Thats great eat he got help from his friends in 2012, does change the fact about the work done in 2011 though
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kefo said:
    Erillion said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through.
    Many times, it seems.  Or we could agree to disagree.

    Chris Roberts started to work on Star Citizen a long time ago, even before 2011. By HIMSELF. In 2012 he got help from his friends. In April he founded CIG. And unpaid friends helping out became paid employees (7 at the beginning).

    Have fun 
    You're still skipping around the point that he was working on the prototype and doing research in 2011. Doesn't matter if only he was doing the work, that's still working on the game. 

    Thats great eat he got help from his friends in 2012, does change the fact about the work done in 2011 though

    Is this intentionally vague for semantics sake? Correct, it doesn't change the fact that work was done, regardless of how much or little that may have been. Same with his friends in 2012. Yes, there was work completed. You're correct. However, as long as we're arguing semantics, that work doesn't constitute the launch of development of a project. It's like if I wanted to start up a new group here, at my company, I would need to do a lot of research, power point presentations, etc. to prove that I can, reasonably, deliver a return on investment to the company. Now, when I start this work, that doesn't mean that the company has recognized that the group was created when I started working on it. No, the group is created when I get the approvals from my executives that I can move ahead and form the group. Even at that point, though, you could argue that it's not formed until the hiring process is complete, but I'd be willing to give a little. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    LOL Erillion has been busy doing damage control. I really have to respect you're determination, you're debating, arguing, my hat off to ya. 

    But you do lose some fights with fact checking (thinking of starting up a SC FC site).  B)
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kefo said:
    Erillion said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through.
    Many times, it seems.  Or we could agree to disagree.

    Chris Roberts started to work on Star Citizen a long time ago, even before 2011. By HIMSELF. In 2012 he got help from his friends. In April he founded CIG. And unpaid friends helping out became paid employees (7 at the beginning).

    Have fun 
    You're still skipping around the point that he was working on the prototype and doing research in 2011. Doesn't matter if only he was doing the work, that's still working on the game. 

    Thats great eat he got help from his friends in 2012, does change the fact about the work done in 2011 though

    Is this intentionally vague for semantics sake? Correct, it doesn't change the fact that work was done, regardless of how much or little that may have been. Same with his friends in 2012. Yes, there was work completed. You're correct. However, as long as we're arguing semantics, that work doesn't constitute the launch of development of a project. It's like if I wanted to start up a new group here, at my company, I would need to do a lot of research, power point presentations, etc. to prove that I can, reasonably, deliver a return on investment to the company. Now, when I start this work, that doesn't mean that the company has recognized that the group was created when I started working on it. No, the group is created when I get the approvals from my executives that I can move ahead and form the group. Even at that point, though, you could argue that it's not formed until the hiring process is complete, but I'd be willing to give a little. 
    What you are arguing is the formation of the "group", while I am arguing about the total work done. Say the group is formed officially on November 13, 2015 but you started doing actual research and writing proposals on July 26, 2015. Does this mean that between July 26 and November 13th everything you have done to form said group is worthless since it fell before the Nov 13 date? It is never mentioned when talking about when a company is actually created since no one really cares at that point except in certain circumstances but there was work done prior to it existing in the public eye.

    Same thing here. CIG may not have been founded until 2012 but that doesn't change the fact that SC was being worked on in 2011, regardless if CR was working on it in his spare time or trying to mock up a prototype to show potential investors.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    Brenics said:

    But you do lose some fights with fact checking
    Well ... so far no "facts" have been mentioned that show that any team and/or CIG was working on Star Citizen in 2011.  Especially with CIG having been founded no sooner than April 2012. Personal opinions from online bloggers in articles do not count as facts. Ideas in Chris Roberts head  between 2004 and 2011 and researching necessary software tools for later do not count as "offical start of Star Citizen development".


    Have fun

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Kefo said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Kefo said:
    Erillion said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...so again, how many times do we need to go through.
    Many times, it seems.  Or we could agree to disagree.

    Chris Roberts started to work on Star Citizen a long time ago, even before 2011. By HIMSELF. In 2012 he got help from his friends. In April he founded CIG. And unpaid friends helping out became paid employees (7 at the beginning).

    Have fun 
    You're still skipping around the point that he was working on the prototype and doing research in 2011. Doesn't matter if only he was doing the work, that's still working on the game. 

    Thats great eat he got help from his friends in 2012, does change the fact about the work done in 2011 though

    Is this intentionally vague for semantics sake? Correct, it doesn't change the fact that work was done, regardless of how much or little that may have been. Same with his friends in 2012. Yes, there was work completed. You're correct. However, as long as we're arguing semantics, that work doesn't constitute the launch of development of a project. It's like if I wanted to start up a new group here, at my company, I would need to do a lot of research, power point presentations, etc. to prove that I can, reasonably, deliver a return on investment to the company. Now, when I start this work, that doesn't mean that the company has recognized that the group was created when I started working on it. No, the group is created when I get the approvals from my executives that I can move ahead and form the group. Even at that point, though, you could argue that it's not formed until the hiring process is complete, but I'd be willing to give a little. 
    What you are arguing is the formation of the "group", while I am arguing about the total work done. Say the group is formed officially on November 13, 2015 but you started doing actual research and writing proposals on July 26, 2015. Does this mean that between July 26 and November 13th everything you have done to form said group is worthless since it fell before the Nov 13 date? It is never mentioned when talking about when a company is actually created since no one really cares at that point except in certain circumstances but there was work done prior to it existing in the public eye.

    Same thing here. CIG may not have been founded until 2012 but that doesn't change the fact that SC was being worked on in 2011, regardless if CR was working on it in his spare time or trying to mock up a prototype to show potential investors.


    Yes, this is literally correct. As long as my boss doesn't come up to me on December 13th and say, "Hey, so you said that it would take you 3 months to get the files in order for the Dookie merger and here we are, 6 months since you started working on things, and we've got a third of the work done." 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Erillion said:
    Vrika said:
     even though Wikipedia tells us that "The development of [Star Citizen] started in 2011 with building a demo on a modified version of the CryEngine 3 game engine"
    Which is based on a quote from a journalist, not a direct quote from Chris Roberts.

    The original Chris Roberts quote from an Oct 10th 2012 interview is :
    “This is my vision,” he says after the demonstration. “I've spent the past year [putting this together] ....

    I leave it to anyone's interpretation what "the past year" means in that context. Personally I think he refers to 2012, especially considering that CIG was founded in April 2012.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Imperium_Games


    Have fun

    The Original Chris Roberts is over 8 feet tall and has fire coming from his eyes.  He also shoots lightning bolts out of his ass.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,232
    filmoret said:

    The Original Chris Roberts is over 8 feet tall and has fire coming from his eyes.  He also shoots lightning bolts out of his ass.
    Thats William Wallace ;-)    not Chris Roberts.


    Have fun
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