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Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Dullahan said:
    The fact that people discussing massively multiplayer online games now refer to multiplayer gameplay and content as "forced grouping", is really indicative of exactly how far this genre has fallen.
    You mean "risen beyond the shackles of the originally limited design"?

    It is just a matter of perspective. If a lot of people don't like grouping, change it.

    Plus, it is not monolithic. A lot of people like team e-sports .. that clearly requires group play. 
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited November 2015
    Dullahan said:
    The fact that people discussing massively multiplayer online games now refer to multiplayer gameplay and content as "forced grouping", is really indicative of exactly how far this genre has fallen.
    Er, the term came from the EQ message boards, you know. So did the idea that leveling should be considerably faster.

    Exactly why Blizzard "won" in 2004. Their new game corrected or ameliorated many of the things Everquest players most commonly complained about.
    In the years I played EQ, I never heard anyone complain about group content or the inability to solo. Its like going to the beach and complaining about the sand.

    I don't even care at this point that MMOs are designed around single player content. If there are people who enjoy that, good on them. What is troubling is the continual propagation of the lie that MMOs can't succeed when designed around multiplayer content and people citing WoW and all the games that emulated them to prove it.

    Trends might change, but people don't. The genre simply adapted to make their games "more accessible" or to make more money. There is no reason to prove that "forced grouping can work if", because it has worked fine and will work again once good games actually start utilizing that design.

    Again, modern games do not prove anyone has changed because they are floundering (outside of WoW, which is down to only a few million). Of course more people played mmos in 2005 than in 1999; In 1999, most people didn't even have an internet connection.


  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.
    There hasn't been a car like a first generation Ford Mustang since 1973.

    Why ?

    Simple. Modern cars are much more reliable, faster, much much safer, pollute much less and use less fuel too. They also have many comfort elements that didn't even exist back then.

    Apply that to MMORPGs, and it works too.

    No one but a very small group of nostalgia struck old players want to go back to those tedious and boring grind games with boring downtime mechanics and forced grouping. And you can be sure that among those who ask for such a game to be made today thinking they will play it, most would have quit after a couple of months, realizing that actually, that MMO model sucked, and also that they don't have the kind of time to invest waste in such a game anymore.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.
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  • GaendricGaendric Member UncommonPosts: 618
    If you have to "force" your gameplay elements onto your playerbase even though they would rather play differently, it's time to go back to the drawingboard.
    You are either targeting the wrong audience or your game design is not up to par.

    In any case, players will play in whatever way they feel like playing. If you take that possibility away from them, many of them will simply leave. 

    So the dicussion should rather be about encouraged grouping, where grouping is both fun and rewarding, but not mandatory.
    If you are making a grouping oriented game and targeting the right niche, the majority will want to group anyway. Thus no force needed in the first place.

  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Member UncommonPosts: 279
    Even with encouraging grouping people are not going to go out of their way to do it. I want to give a SWTOR example. If you are in a group doing the H2's and you complete the bonus mission that grants you 10k credits. When you complete it, you get 10k, when your party members complete it, you ALSO get 10k. so 4 party members complete the bonus mission you get 40k total.

    It also worked with the EXP. If you earned 500 exp for the bonus, you got 500 for each person completing it also. This makes it so the bonus mission, in a 4 man group, was worth 2k exp. Odd, since most people race to the "finish line" in most MMO's why wouldn't they group, it is faster.

    I pointed this out to the members in my guild. Most of them had no clue, so my wife and I invited two others to prove it to them. They were astounded that they never noticed that before.
    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
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  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,021
    @mrrshann618
    Problem is people do difference quests and not same one . That's one part i dislike about quests as leveling tools.
    You can't group in those quests hub game without lost something . Grouping in those game like punishment than reward.

    You ask why most people don't group in most new MMO ?
    Difference object (quests)
    Difference power (gears , level , skill)
    Difference real life time (login time)

    It's hard to group with people you know , and it's impossible with people you meet one or 2 time.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited November 2015
    Jean-Luc_Picard said:
    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.
    It's good to talk about. It's even fun to relive for a while.

    But those mechanics disappeared for good reasons. The 1999 servers would be sufficient, otherwise.

    Why drink the third-generation watered down milk when you can still go back and eat the original cow?

    "Trends might change, but (some) people don't."
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited November 2015
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.
    Arent you tired of throwing this strawman out and having it obliterated yet. There has been no games like EQ since EQ. Even Vanguard was drastically modernized after a horrific launch.

    None. Zero. Zilch.


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Gaendric said:
    If you have to "force" your gameplay elements onto your playerbase even though they would rather play differently, it's time to go back to the drawingboard.
    You are either targeting the wrong audience or your game design is not up to par.



    Absolutely .. is that try Trammel was created for UO? Or EQ2 so different from EQ?
  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685
    Forced grouping will work, but only if there's enough people to support it.

    It also depends on the content, such as groups, raids, open-world events, etc...

    If it's open-world and questing, it usually doesn't work, because people do not want to waste time for trivial activities such as those, where the rewards are worse than instanced content.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,724
    observer said:
    Forced grouping will work, but only if there's enough people to support it.

    It also depends on the content, such as groups, raids, open-world events, etc...

    If it's open-world and questing, it usually doesn't work, because people do not want to waste time for trivial activities such as those, where the rewards are worse than instanced content.
    Good point on content. Many games have instanced-based content as their core feature. Problem now is, so many games offer so much solo-casual stuff and instanced-based stuff as the only thing that is grouped with a bunch of randoms that you'll probably never meet again just to accommodate convenience.

    Lets say a game did come out that was heavily grouped focused and have everything many people on this thread might want in terms of group focused. Chances are it wont have a healthy player-base since the people that voice their opinion will always be lower than the ones that don't. Its just like so many people voice so much disdain for the current state WoW is now, but when you look at every post made and tally it up, its only a small fraction in comparison to those that say nothing and let their wallets speak. That said, no one honestly knows why a person plays/leaves aside from maybe blizzard employees if people actually fill out the questionnaire about why people are not resubbing when you cancel your sub. Which means numbers > good gameplay systems in the case of many companies.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.
    There hasn't been a car like a first generation Ford Mustang since 1973.

    Why ?

    Simple. Modern cars are much more reliable, faster, much much safer, pollute much less and use less fuel too. They also have many comfort elements that didn't even exist back then.

    Apply that to MMORPGs, and it works too.

    No one but a very small group of nostalgia struck old players want to go back to those tedious and boring grind games with boring downtime mechanics and forced grouping. And you can be sure that among those who ask for such a game to be made today thinking they will play it, most would have quit after a couple of months, realizing that actually, that MMO model sucked, and also that they don't have the kind of time to invest waste in such a game anymore.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.

    I disagree with that there have been attempts at that type of game.  There have been almost no attempts to make any old MMORPG except Shadowbane style PvP games.  

    I disagree that all old game mechanics are outdated.  For the record I am not talking about exclusively about EQ which seems to be the WoW of nostalgia.  

    WoW created a gold rush.  Everyone went to California in the MMORPG genre.  Other type of games never got a chance to mature.  SWG is probably more advanced than any other MMORPG, disregarding UI and general playability.  
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Scott23 said:
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
    yeh .... and is there a reason not to provide people with gameplay that achieve their goals with "less hassle" (in your words).


  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Member UncommonPosts: 279
    iixviiiix said:
    @mrrshann618
    Problem is people do difference quests and not same one . That's one part i dislike about quests as leveling tools.
    You can't group in those quests hub game without lost something . Grouping in those game like punishment than reward.

    You ask why most people don't group in most new MMO ?
    Difference object (quests)
    Difference power (gears , level , skill)
    Difference real life time (login time)

    It's hard to group with people you know , and it's impossible with people you meet one or 2 time.
    Actually Most of the above comments are why I used SWTOR's H2's as an example.
    They are identical for everyone.
    Everyone with the quest has the quick travel button so no waiting.
    They are easily shareable for those who do not have them.
    and
    They are fairly quick. You do not need to know the person longer than the few minuets needed to complete the quest. You can group for the 20 min, not be social other than the "wanna group", and part your ways like two people on a subway.

    Everyone benefits, and you never know, 1 out of the 30 times you try you might make a friend.
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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,638
    edited November 2015
    You can design a total grouping game which many would scoff is FORCED but it does not have to be and still works really well,case in point FFXI.
    All your pros are to group but if you don't want to there is nothing FORCING you to group.You could solo to 30 and then grab a soloing class/job like Summoner or the better choice Beastmaster.

    As a much older game they then added what are known to common gamers as mercenaries,basically tons of game NPC's come to life as your companions.I wouldn't mind starting a game like that but allow players to do  quests in attaining them or perhaps secret ideas to attain them.

    None the less if your game is designed well covers most bases,you can enjoy any way you want,however imo grouping should be the main focus of a online game,it only makes sense.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    edited November 2015
    Scott23 said:
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
    yeh .... and is there a reason not to provide people with gameplay that achieve their goals with "less hassle" (in your words).



    Not necessarily.  I don't have a horse in this race.  In fact I would probably solo or duo any game that I play nowadays.

    If you design a system where the best loot or faster progression is best achieved by grouping then the majority of people will group.  If you have a couple of classes that can solo efficiently you will find that they become the predominant class.

    It is human nature.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    yes forced grouping would be awesome

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  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,712
    Whenever I see "forced grouping" ideas my eyes just roll. I am not playing a game because I have to be forced to do something I do not wish to. If I want to play with a group, it should be MY CHOICE and never forced. I like to play in a group IF it is with friends and/or family. If not, I would rather just go solo. That does not mean I am not "social" in games. I have made many online friends playing MMOs. However, the one thing that all of my friend and family agree is that we would never play a game that forced us into grouping situations with people we have no idea who they are. Too many egos to deal with. Too many god complexes to avoid. We just want to have fun. So to that end there is no method of "forced" grouping (or anything for that matter) that  would be acceptable.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Gruug said:
    Whenever I see "forced grouping" ideas my eyes just roll. I am not playing a game because I have to be forced to do something I do not wish to. If I want to play with a group, it should be MY CHOICE and never forced. I like to play in a group IF it is with friends and/or family. If not, I would rather just go solo. That does not mean I am not "social" in games. I have made many online friends playing MMOs. However, the one thing that all of my friend and family agree is that we would never play a game that forced us into grouping situations with people we have no idea who they are. Too many egos to deal with. Too many god complexes to avoid. We just want to have fun. So to that end there is no method of "forced" grouping (or anything for that matter) that  would be acceptable.
    I don't think there is a problem. You can always find groups that you can solo.

    There are so many games, essentially i just NOT play the ones i don't like .. no matter how small the issue is.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.
    There hasn't been a car like a first generation Ford Mustang since 1973.

    Why ?

    Simple. Modern cars are much more reliable, faster, much much safer, pollute much less and use less fuel too. They also have many comfort elements that didn't even exist back then.

    Apply that to MMORPGs, and it works too.

    No one but a very small group of nostalgia struck old players want to go back to those tedious and boring grind games with boring downtime mechanics and forced grouping. And you can be sure that among those who ask for such a game to be made today thinking they will play it, most would have quit after a couple of months, realizing that actually, that MMO model sucked, and also that they don't have the kind of time to invest waste in such a game anymore.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.
    Been away a bit but I wanted to reply to this--

    You make a great point, that supports what I'm looking for.

    Seen the Camaros, mustangs, and challengers of the last decade? They went, in varying degrees, back to the style of the old designs. Other cars have done this too.

    That doesn't mean they put less-efficient parts in them or less-effective safety measures. They acknowledged what was good, what people loved, and responsibly adapted the rest. The result has been such a success that competitors followed.

    Old MMOs sucked in a lot of ways. FFXI's Relic and Mythic weapons required an obscene level of dedication. Relics not so much anymore, but mythics still actually do (Mythics had a lot of gateway requirements that still are a pain to meet). It could and would legitimately take a guild a year or more to build mythics because they took that long. You could shorten some of it buy buying alexandrite from other players but that was expensive too.

    Like better airbags and shatter-resistant glass in cars, MMO developers have learned a great number of lessons about the psychology of MMO players and to what degrees elements are fun. Grouping? Fun. Looking for a group? Not really fun, unless you can do enjoyable things while looking for a group. Unable to find a group for hours/days? Not fun at all.

    Everyone working together to defeat a boss, and succeeding? Fun. Getting nothing but a worthless drop like a chunk of copper ore? Not fun. Accruing guaranteed points towards buying the drop while also potentially just getting the drop directly from the monster? Fun (in the case the drop is directly gotten, the points can be used towards another goal).

    I've stated several things that I would change about old-style MMOs to alleviate the weaknesses in a "forced-grouping" situation, such as allowing players to be on one job/class while seeking for another. Giving players a larger experience bonus earned in group the longer they waited in the LFG pool. Tanks, who queue the fasted, would get the least benefit, but they can reliably queue quickly.

    The thing is, I've never personally played an MMORPG that didn't require a group to get current-great gear besides a few bosses that can be gibbed due to a mechanic. The problem, as I've said, is that this doesn't occur til level-cap and then you have a great number of people who don't understand their class in the slightest degree, because grouping wasn't incentivized*. Soloing, for some sick reason, is always made the most effective route for players who aren't tanks, healers, or queuing with one or the other.

    When newbies don't learn group play for their class, they annoy and frustrate players that do and the community degenerates. The noobs hate the elitists for being mean and the elitists hate the noobs for not having beat the boss before fighting the boss.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
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  • flguy147flguy147 Member UncommonPosts: 473
    Dibdabs said:
    Do you think forced-grouping for decent experience-gain would be acceptable in a modern MMO...
    Forced grouping is totally unacceptable in a modern MMO, and it wouldn't last 5 seconds on my hard drive if that turned out to be the case in a new game I started playing.

    The quality of the community these days is so shit that I'd hate being forced into close proximity to most players.
    Gotta agree with you on this.  The quality of the players has what has killed grouping i think.  I dont mean quality of how good a player is but the quality of just being a respectful person.  I dont deal with punks in real life and i am not going to deal with them in a group in an MMO.    So when half the groups i get in there are rude people then i have zero problem leaving in the middle of a dungeon.  It doesnt matter if they are rude to me or to another person in the group.  I log on to relax, i have a stressful career and the with a 1.5 yr old daughter now and the last thing i want in my free time is to deal with punks in a video  game.  And i LOVE grouping but now there are too many bad and rude people in groups that it has a negative impact i have on grouping so i choose not to group as much anymore.
  • ausj3w3lausj3w3l Member UncommonPosts: 9
    flguy147 said:
    Dibdabs said:
    Do you think forced-grouping for decent experience-gain would be acceptable in a modern MMO...
    Forced grouping is totally unacceptable in a modern MMO, and it wouldn't last 5 seconds on my hard drive if that turned out to be the case in a new game I started playing.

    The quality of the community these days is so shit that I'd hate being forced into close proximity to most players.
    Gotta agree with you on this.  The quality of the players has what has killed grouping i think.  I dont mean quality of how good a player is but the quality of just being a respectful person.  I dont deal with punks in real life and i am not going to deal with them in a group in an MMO.    So when half the groups i get in there are rude people then i have zero problem leaving in the middle of a dungeon.  It doesnt matter if they are rude to me or to another person in the group.  I log on to relax, i have a stressful career and the with a 1.5 yr old daughter now and the last thing i want in my free time is to deal with punks in a video  game.  And i LOVE grouping but now there are too many bad and rude people in groups that it has a negative impact i have on grouping so i choose not to group as much anymore.
    a good thing about those mmo's that emphasis, or even force grouping though is that those type of players don't get very far... because a lot of people think like you and won't put up with ti
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited November 2015
    A new mmo is either going to emphasize the future, or the past.

    Nostalgia marketing works great on certain people who believe the MMO best days are already behind them. That's a powerful pitch.

    Both approaches will net some cash. How much cash will depend more on the quality of the product than the quality of the marketing.

    I'm just not into re-playing old games. If I were, I'd choose MUDs; a much more verbal and imaginative "immersion" experience.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    ausj3w3l said:

    a good thing about those mmo's that emphasis, or even force grouping though is that those type of players don't get very far... because a lot of people think like you and won't put up with ti
    yeh, there is no point putting up with anyone in online entertainment. It is not like i have to face the stranger the day after. 
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