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Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,567
    NorseGod said:


    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.


    Apparently my opinion mean a lot more to devs than MMO "purists". Otherwise, why would they cater to my preferences, and let me play their games for free?
    The need you as fodder for the whales, cheaper than providing quality content.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756




    Obviously, MMOs are designed to be social games
    Obviously not anymore.

    Many can be enjoyed as solo-game. The social aspect is completely optional in many MMOs. 
    They can, but by doing that you lose out on the main advantage MMOs have over single player games- the interaction with other people.
    It is ONLY an advantage if you like interaction with others.

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more .. and if i have fun this way, is there a reason why i should not?
    Yes, actually, there is a reason.  Single player games offer much better content for solo players.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,756
    edited November 2015
    Forcing ANYTHING is bad.

    Encouraging through mechanics is good.

    The connotation is bad, but really it's just the best term people have come up with.

    People wouldn't call MMOs "forced questing" or "forced killing things" or "forced leveling", but it's the same idea.  It's just about the rules of the game.

    "You don't need much retention to make money off f2p games. Data show that most (80%) quit in 30 days.

    https://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/understanding-mmo-retention/

    It is really not about retention anymore. It is about fleecing the whales. "

    This is true but it wasn't always this way.  Age of Conan and Warhammer were considered dismal failures at their time because they lost 50% after 6 months.  Nowadays retention numbers like that would be considered a success.

    It may just be possible that people ditch these games because solo-centric MMOs just aren't that fun after all.

    In any case, we have zero data on forced grouping MMOs because none have been offered for over a decade.  For the ones that were offered before then, retention after release was positive, not negative, and for years on end.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188
    SoloAnything said:  Solo content should not be in mmorpg.

    Do you feel that MMOs like A Tale in the Desert, EVE Online, Second Life, and Star Wars Galaxies were a step in the wrong direction for the genre?


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.

    Some people are naturally nice, and a highly competitive game will either change them or cause them to leave because stealing kills is not their idea of fun.

    Some are naturally mean to anyone that they don't have a use for, and a teamwork-oriented game will either cause them to work with other players, cause them to leave, or isolate themselves with other like-minded afkholes.

    It is more than likely true that a teamwork-oriented game will never be as successful as a solo with everyone else game.

    I fully acknowledge that a polished up FFXI will never be as successful as WoW, and probably not as FFXIV, but you don't have to be king of the mountain to be great.

    Companies aren't trying it because it's not how Blizzard got ELEVENTY MILLION PEOPLE. Nobody wants to be Target, they want to be Wal Mart. Wal Mart, imo, is a great comparison to Blizzard. Everyone seems to hate it (me as well), but even hated so much, it's still the biggest of them.

    The great thing about XI, is they never tried to compete with WoW. When they introduced more solo-friendly tools, it's because the game was lacking an influx of new players. Two of those tools, Level-sync and Campaign Battle removed the relevancy of closeness of levels/gear from playing together (in those contexts).
    I don't think that is exactly right but close. It isn't exactly soloing that turns the community toxic but focus on your own character. Even if you only have forced grouping you still get a toxic community if the only focus of the game is to make you more powerful (usually with gear).

    Building things together is what makes a good community, fighting for something greater than yourself. That could be about guilds, realm or something else but players need to feel that they are working together for a common goal.

    It is fine that part of the game is about gaining treasures but it must be about more if we want MMOs to be more than a single player game, and since single player games are cheaper, easier to make and focus better on that experience MMOs need to be about more if we want it to survive.

    Forced grouping isn't enough by far, you need to make the players care at least as much about a group/faction or guild as about themselves. It need to be as fun when you unlock something cool for your guild or faction as when you get some good loot for yourself. Yes, that takes  some work but it have worked before, DaoC for example did this fine to mention one game.

    Personally I would also add a new thing beside guilds: permanent adventurer groups like in P&P. Give an extra bonus when you play together with your group and make it into a miniguild with reputation, specific gear you can unlock and so on. That gives you something different and often easier to focus on then your 150 people guild.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Kyleran said:
    NorseGod said:


    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.


    Apparently my opinion mean a lot more to devs than MMO "purists". Otherwise, why would they cater to my preferences, and let me play their games for free?
    The need you as fodder for the whales, cheaper than providing quality content.



    Wow, since the good old McDonalds is brought up enough about these games, I guess it would make those fodder the equivalent of Pink Slime?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,632
    Not sure why people argue about grouping not working ,when anyone having played games like EQ or FFXI know for FACT that grouping does work.I would also argue that group fighting is miles more fun than soloing by yourself.

    I would think that gamer's joined MMO's to play "with" other people instead of playing single player games by themselves.I know many only joined online games to pvp so in essence still soloing but many are there for player interaction.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more
    Why? What is it about MMOs that appeals to you if it's not to at least mildly interact with other players?

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.

    Some people are naturally nice, and a highly competitive game will either change them or cause them to leave because stealing kills is not their idea of fun.

    Some are naturally mean to anyone that they don't have a use for, and a teamwork-oriented game will either cause them to work with other players, cause them to leave, or isolate themselves with other like-minded afkholes.

    It is more than likely true that a teamwork-oriented game will never be as successful as a solo with everyone else game.

    I fully acknowledge that a polished up FFXI will never be as successful as WoW, and probably not as FFXIV, but you don't have to be king of the mountain to be great.

    Companies aren't trying it because it's not how Blizzard got ELEVENTY MILLION PEOPLE. Nobody wants to be Target, they want to be Wal Mart. Wal Mart, imo, is a great comparison to Blizzard. Everyone seems to hate it (me as well), but even hated so much, it's still the biggest of them.

    The great thing about XI, is they never tried to compete with WoW. When they introduced more solo-friendly tools, it's because the game was lacking an influx of new players. Two of those tools, Level-sync and Campaign Battle removed the relevancy of closeness of levels/gear from playing together (in those contexts).
    The moment ffxi introduced solo able content is when game died and wasn't as fun anymore. Died for me and everyone I knew in game. Solo content should not be in mmorpg if there is then make a new genre like single player rpg with mmo chat.
    In my opinion, it's going a little far to say "no solo content"--quite far actually. You won't always have friends online and you need to be able to do things.

    Many MMOs would have us believe that every single player is the one true hero that the world needs. If we're each going to be that hero, we deserve some power. Some.

    Solo-able casual content came about with the dancer job. Anyone could be a decent soloer of things noone honestly cared about. A few great players could solo respectable things and that was the great thing. They deserved that recognition.

    Abyssea, on the other hand, was just a poor choice altogether. I like the concept of low-mannable content but it turned everyone into freakish gods that literally, could never die. (Automatically resurrect as many times as you wanted, with weakness after resurrection).

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Loke666 said:
    Deathofsage said: [...]
    I don't think that is exactly right but close. It isn't exactly soloing that turns the community toxic but focus on your own character. Even if you only have forced grouping you still get a toxic community if the only focus of the game is to make you more powerful (usually with gear).

    Building things together is what makes a good community, fighting for something greater than yourself. That could be about guilds, realm or something else but players need to feel that they are working together for a common goal.

    It is fine that part of the game is about gaining treasures but it must be about more if we want MMOs to be more than a single player game, and since single player games are cheaper, easier to make and focus better on that experience MMOs need to be about more if we want it to survive.

    Forced grouping isn't enough by far, you need to make the players care at least as much about a group/faction or guild as about themselves. It need to be as fun when you unlock something cool for your guild or faction as when you get some good loot for yourself. Yes, that takes  some work but it have worked before, DaoC for example did this fine to mention one game.

    Personally I would also add a new thing beside guilds: permanent adventurer groups like in P&P. Give an extra bonus when you play together with your group and make it into a miniguild with reputation, specific gear you can unlock and so on. That gives you something different and often easier to focus on then your 150 people guild.
    Right. WoWcetera has us leveling up soloing, aside from when we choose to join a dungeon, and has us doing dailies solo, rep grinding solo, etc etc. The only time we get in a group is for dungeons to get tokens to get gear, or raids to get trophies to get gear.

    Afkholes dont want to associate with anyone who isn't somehow helping improve their gear, and everyone else doesn't want to associate with the Afkholes.

    The average dungeon experience, in almost any game, will teach that. You have three types of people.

    - The Newbie/Lighthearted Gamer/Casual Dude/Nice Guy
    - The Meter Humper spamming meters in content noone cares about.
    - The people so burnt out by meter humpers they barely talk (this is definitely me, I've said before "When I tank/heal, I don't let the group slow down enough to manage to kick someone or give people time to pet their dps meters").

    I generally feel bad for the newbie getting berated but I know that the meter spammer isn't going to shutup and will start trolling the whole group if you push him, and that's just more of a mess.

    Other side of the coin, old school mmo's had you grouping for almost everything (I even admit that they went a little, honestly just a little, too far with that). You still had meter-obsessed jerks in casual content from time to time, but people ignored them, or kicked them from the party if they were especially toxic. Everything being a group adventure, you became invested in your friend's characters and wanted them to have better gear, and they wanted you to as well. At any level, casual, hardcore, elitist, your guild still became a community and when you met great people in parties, you invited them to your guild or put them on your friends-list.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard Member LegendaryPosts: 8,070
    edited November 2015
    The "meter spammer" is a specie I haven't seen in a while...

    I must admit I'm leveling a new Death Knight, horde side this time, and usually, the top DPS is me, having raided up to hardcore since WotLK with that class, and being full heirlooms... and since I don't spam meters but just use them for personal information and improvement, nobody does... because meter spammers don't spam when they aren't first ;)

    So the solution to meter spammers is easy: be better than them. They won't spam anymore.
    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn in Star Wars.
    After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that nor does the ability to write.
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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The "meter spammer" is a specie I haven't seen in a while...

    I must admit I'm leveling a new Death Knight, horde side this time, and usually, the top DPS is me, having raided up to hardcore since WotLK with that class, and being full heirlooms... and since I don't spam meters but just use them for personal information and improvement, nobody does... because meter spammers don't spam when they aren't first ;)

    So the solution to meter spammers is easy: be better than them. They won't spam anymore.
    Doesn't really help, they also tend to spamm the chat to explain why their DPS isn't the highest. I usually ignore them if they don't get too toxic, then I tell them to ease down and if they continue anyways I boot them out.

    Playing should be fun, when someone make the healer cry IRL I bloody well boot them and put them on my ignore list.

    Certain people are helpful and try to teach people to play better, I have no issue with them (rather the opposite) but some jerks just play to make others miserable. If someone plays so badly they kill off the group constantly I don't need a meter to see they aren't up to scratch and I usually have a private chat with them with suggestions how they can play better. If they don't listen then I certainly will boot them of course but usually the players who can take advices becomes acceptable players soon.

    If I ever used a meter it have been for bettering my own DPS when Im new to a game (been some years though) and I have never ever spammed it in my chat, I don't believe in that type of gameplay. If I have to make up for some newer players inexperience I will do so without complaining and if I want to play with only really good players I play with guildies (which me and my guild have trained and helped equip so everyone is up to my standards as "good". As I see it me as guildmaster and my officers work is to make sure our new members learn the game as fast as possible, just giving a new player good gear and powerlevel them is not good enough, in fact it might be outright bad.

    Close to any player can become good really fast with a little help as long as they are willing to listen to advice. They will never if people just complain and kick them.
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    I've held a disdain for modern MMOs ever since those three letters appeared on the scene.

    DP f**king S

    Way to take an immersive, collaborative, action-packed world and boil it down to a math test.

    IMO, that is where MMOs began their decline.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited November 2015
    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.
    Here's part of the problem: Two things occurring at the same time are not always causally related.

    It's convenient to blame the "decline and fall of the MMO industry" on solo gamers, or on Blizzard, or on a host of other convenient, too-pat explanations.

    But not necessarily accurate. They only become articles of faith thanks to ad nauseam repetition.

    It couldn't be the player base, aging and burning out due to overexposure and familiarity. Nope, nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be due to general decline of internet behavior, nope nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be all an illusion, nope nope. I lost all of my friends from fifteen years ago, and now I just don't bother trying to make new ones. All the game's fault.

    There's fifty, a hundred other explanations, every bit as likely. And possibly all contributing together...maybe human behavior isn't easy black and white.

    But the pat explanation is easiest to express and sounds plausible. That must be the one that's right.

    Grandpa's community was continually going downhill for the entire end of his lifetime. My parent's communities are now, too. Want a quote about community decline from 300 B.C.?

    Amazing how this works.

    We have political parties who use preachers of darkness and despair to garner votes, every single election. Be afraid, be very afraid. Things were better before. We're all dooomed.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Yeah for sure, there is nothing wrong with using a meter for your own dps, and even for progression.

    But also: If you're doing 50% of the dps you should be in a leveling dungeon, idgaf (unless we cannot progress because of you). If you're doing 50% of the dps you should be in a raid, especially a progression raid, then it's time to talk.

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.
    Here's part of the problem: Two things occurring at the same time are not always causally related.

    It's convenient to blame the "decline and fall of the MMO industry" on solo gamers, or on Blizzard, or on a host of other convenient, too-pat explanations.

    But not necessarily accurate. They only become articles of faith thanks to ad nauseam repetition.

    It couldn't be the player base, aging and burning out due to overexposure and familiarity. Nope, nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be due to general decline of internet behavior, nope nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be all an illusion, nope nope. I lost all of my friends from fifteen years ago, and now I just don't bother trying to make new ones. All the game's fault.

    There's fifty, a hundred other explanations, every bit as likely. And possibly all contributing together...maybe human behavior isn't easy black and white.

    But the pat explanation is easiest to express and sounds plausible. That must be the one that's right.

    Grandpa's community was continually going downhill for the entire end of his lifetime. My parent's communities are now, too. Want a quote about community decline from 300 B.C.?

    Amazing how this works.

    We have political parties who use preachers of darkness and despair to garner votes, every single election. Be afraid, be very afraid. Things were better before. We're all dooomed.
    Okay, when I said that, I knew I was going to get the "correlation is not causation" and likewise-replies. I'm not disregarding those either, it's an important thing for people to realize.

    However, without a study to prove things otherwise, all we have to go on is what we've experienced and I, and many players, have witnessed that as a game becomes more solo-friendly, the communities begin to suck more.

    In lieu of a study, I'd take an honest triple-A effort to bring back a forced-grouping game, and if the community is terrible after a few months, I'll admit I was wrong. I silently hoped that FFXIV 1.0, and 2.0 were going to try it. Neither did.

    (I say "after a few months", because we all know the same bitter mmo-roaming crowd is going to come in at launch and gripe and moan and troll groups. That atrocity, unfortunately, seems here to stay.)

    I haven't played a new mmo in years and thought "this community is fantastic!".

    In most new MMOs, you honest-to-god can reach level cap without knowing how to play your class and that is atrocious. I'm not talking about optimum setups ("you should put this talent point over here because it does x for y"). I'm talking about common sense, like not trying to be a retribution paladin with righteous fury up (prot paladin threat stance).

    "Forced grouping" (sorry again for the moniker) while leveling at least guarantees that 98% of the people who get to cap will know how to play their class.

    And by the way: "Decline of gaming communities couldn't be all an illusion, nope nope. I lost all of my friends from fifteen years ago, and now I just don't bother trying to make new ones. All the game's fault."

    This is ridiculous. I make plenty of friends in other MMOs. I didn't say that cliques don't happen. I said the *community* is toxic. It doesn't mean everyone in it sucks, it means that there are enough people in it that do suck that exposing yourself to it is a risk each time. I LOVE when random dungeon finder puts me in a group of nice people. People that will joke around, do silly things, get up from a wipe and not blame anyone. I just don't expect it.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more
    Why? What is it about MMOs that appeals to you if it's not to at least mildly interact with other players?
    IP. Gameplay. For example, there is no action combat RPG .. heck no RPG with marvel characters (unless you get back to the very old MUA 1 & 2) except for Marvel Heroes.

    MH is a fabulous (for me, of course) single player game. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,567
    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.
    Here's part of the problem: Two things occurring at the same time are not always causally related.

    It's convenient to blame the "decline and fall of the MMO industry" on solo gamers, or on Blizzard, or on a host of other convenient, too-pat explanations.

    But not necessarily accurate. They only become articles of faith thanks to ad nauseam repetition.

    It couldn't be the player base, aging and burning out due to overexposure and familiarity. Nope, nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be due to general decline of internet behavior, nope nope, couldn't be that.

    Decline of gaming communities couldn't be all an illusion, nope nope. I lost all of my friends from fifteen years ago, and now I just don't bother trying to make new ones. All the game's fault.

    There's fifty, a hundred othOkam's explanations, every bit as likely. And possibly all contributing together...maybe human behavior isn't easy black and white.

    But the pat explanation is easiest to express and sounds plausible. That must be the one that's right.

    Grandpa's community was continually going downhill for the entire end of his lifetime. My parent's communities are now, too. Want a quote about community decline from 300 B.C.?

    Amazing how this works.

    We have political parties who use preachers of darkness and despair to garner votes, every single election. Be afraid, be very afraid. Things were better before. We're all dooomed.
    None so deaf as those who do not hear, none so blind as those who do not see.

    Okam's Razor applies more often than not, better to go with it in this situation.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772


    It is ONLY an advantage if you like interaction with others.

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more .. and if i have fun this way, is there a reason why i should not?
    Yes, actually, there is a reason.  Single player games offer much better content for solo players.
    That is clearly not true.

    Because I cannot find a single player game that has better action RPG combat with marvel characters than Marvel Heroes. In fact, there is NO other RPG with all those marvel characters on the market (unless you go back 10 years with the very old MUA 1 & 2).


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,556
    edited November 2015
    Is that the easiest explanation?  Or just the one that agree's with someone's point of view of how MMORPG's should be?

    To me it isn't the easiest explanation.

    Us doing essentially the same things in games for the past 15 years is to me the easiest explanation.  That combined with of a whole lot of people who don't agree with how an MMORPG should be is in my opinion what is ruining MMORPG and making me want to play solo more than group, and therefore leading to my personal decline of these games (no I don't actually believe there is a decline, I'm just losing interest).
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    Kyleran said:None so deaf as those who do not hear, none so blind as those who do not see.

    Okam's Razor applies more often than not, better to go with it in this situation.
    Fingers in ears, lalalala? Okay, you've abandoned scientific method and adopted a theory as fact.

    William of Ockham would not applaud.


  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,188

    I enjoy playing MMOs as a single player game much more
    Why? What is it about MMOs that appeals to you if it's not to at least mildly interact with other players?
    Why are there so many lurkers here and only a tiny handful of posters?

    Why does Worldstar HipHop exist?
         Chat Roullette?
            123cam?
                #FloridaMan?
                     People Watching?
                                           Reality TV?

    Or even the people that enjoy
                                        reading news about EVE Online 
                                                            but have no interest in playing it?  

    Maybe it's being alone together, a form of voyeurism, or the chance to virtually be with others when they can't or don't want to physically be with others, there's an entire segment of gamers that have no desire to be Norm and just want to be there with everyone elsefor reasons that are entirely their own. 

    Since you're working on an MMO, I highly recommend reading Sherry Turkle's "Alone Together". 
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,556
    MMO's offer far far more than single player games, even if you never even talk to another person.  There is more to do in an mmo than just group.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772
    Kyleran said:
    NorseGod said:


    You bitch for 10 minutes of free "entertainment". Your opinion doesn't mean a damn to anybody.


    Apparently my opinion mean a lot more to devs than MMO "purists". Otherwise, why would they cater to my preferences, and let me play their games for free?
    The need you as fodder for the whales, cheaper than providing quality content.


    Yeah ... fodder for whales are way more important than MMO purists ... i share your assessment. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,772

    MMO's offer far far more than single player games, even if you never even talk to another person.  There is more to do in an mmo than just group.
    Not all of them.

    There is literally nothing else to do but group and pvp in World of Tank.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    People trying to dismiss the correlation between group oriented games and strong communities:

    Until a study proves otherwise, the connection is obvious. Communities went downhill when games became more soloable, and the thing is, communities aren't improving.


    No. People are just dismissing that strong communities are important.

    In fact, it is quite clear that MMOs are solo-able, and also disposable because players are looking for gameplay fun, and communities are just incidental. Otherwise games with toxic communities (like LoL0 would not be so popular.
    MMO aren't being made may say something as well.  LoL is a death match game. All death match style games have toxic communities.  It's the nature of anonymous competitive gaming.
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